Is ATS and UFOlogy a playground for Government mind control researchers?

Part of understanding the tendrils of UFOlogy is the ability to put aside prejudice and examine the many facets openly. Targ and Puthoff aren't the answer.
Among the many aspects are a distinct need for Earthcentric thinking.
Let me inject a few possible paths.
Check a certain Professor at Laurention University.
Also you might try a search on the terms 'gang stalking' 'electronic harassment' and the like. This sort of thing is becoming quite common.
And you may want to visit blackvault.com and have a look at the available documents. Keep in mind while reading these not what was said but what wasn't said. Put on Leon Russells "Maddogs and Englishmen" or Jackson Brownes "The Pretender" for some mood music.
Check this snip from a Pro-se document filed in Texas-

www.mkzine.com...

On February of 2003, plaintiff filed in the US District Court for the
Southern District of Texas, a cause of action against the US Attorney General seeking an order to cease and desist from directing radiation into
plaintiff and his family on the ground that the electronic aggression has
caused severe physical harm to plaintiff and his children, and on the ground
that plaintiff’s investigation is retaliation for bringing claims of
discrimination and fraud against the Cooley defendants. Jesus Mendoza
Maldonado v the US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, Case No. M 03-038.
51. US district Judge Ricardo Hinojosa assigned the case to US Magistrate
Dorina Ramos.
52. The US Attorney General has not denied the fact that plaintiff is the
subject of an investigation and active electronic surveillance.
53. At several times relevant to this case the US Attorney General, has
claimed that others may be involved in electronic aggression of plaintiff,
and has claimed that the federal government has no duty to protect plaintiff against these aggressions.

Read the whole thing if you've a mind.
My bold. I could bold the whole paragraph #53. But hopefully you get the point.

Has ATS been GreenBaum'ed?

Hypnosis in MPD: Ritual Abuse

From the Above Link

Isn't it interesting that the doctor's name is Dr. Green?

From quoted text in this thread

Dr. Christopher Green...

His work clinically relates to his expertise as a neurophysiologist with a specialty in electrophysiology...

From ATS Thread Link posted earlier in thread

...Psychiatry and Behavioral Neurosciences...

...Advanced Intelligence Technology DIA / CIA...

You have all been programmed to seek out ATS and post your progress as an MK-Ultra graduate.
Thank you for your participation.
Severance packages have been discontinued.

(Sorry about that. I was seeing dots there for a second and automatically started to connect them. The doctor in question was actually named GreenBaum.)

However, Christopher C. (Kit) Green does come up quite often with other interesting things...

The Following are a few of those from This Link...

Remote Viewers: The Secret History of America's Psychic Spies

Covert Action Information Bulletin

The Stargate Conspiracy

The Lobster Journal: a journal of intelligence, parapolitics, and state research

Uri Geller

Monroe Institute

Aviary (UFO-Debunking Organization)

So really, who is to tell? Do the people behind the references just not like Dr. Green? Are they looking to make a name for themselves by defamation of a highly decorated doctor? Or is there something more to the whole thing?

Are certain people trying to detract from the obvious? Or are the connections indeed spurious?

Is this actually an interesting topic to me? Or am I just bored?

These are the questions we need to ask.

The FACTS... NOTHING changed NOTHING altered...

from an Email received by Springer from Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green:


I have never, in any way...manner...shape...or form been involved in "Mind Control" research, nor do I know anyone, personally, who has been...with the single exception of Dr. Sid Gottlieb...whom I met briefly twice in 1971. The "Brother Blue"Goblins of Langley is partially true...but not those parts! I also met Joslyn West, MD, PhD...who has been claimed to have been involved in Mind Control research on the web. It is a lie, in my personal opinion. He said he was not, and I believed him. I worked with him for many years after I left Government full-time employment, from about 1987 until he died a few years ago. A more ethical and honorable physician I have never met. I am in good company to be accused of false things like being involved in "Mind Control." He was too busy at Harvard Medical School being the Chair at the time...so I suspect that is made up. The MKULTRA program, ARTICHOKE, and BLUEBIRD psychopharmacology efforts ended from 7 to 15 years before I ever entered into government service, in 1969. I do not believe Remote Viewing is Mind Control...but if anyone does...then they might think I was a mind control person, however.

I DID assess CLAIMED Foreign (Soviet, PRC, and Eastern Bloc) research in "mind control" from about 1970 through 1985 when I left the Agency. I never, ever, found any credible evidence of any work by them either...lots of garbage, lots of claimed results, lots of hokey machines with flashing lights and loud sounds...but never anything I was willing to say I thought was a threat to the National Security of the United States. I even reviewed a Soviet LIDA-4 "Mind Control" machine...and found it to be a total fraud. (It did flash an annoying strobe light and make weird bleeping sounds that certain Russian Scientists thought was controlling the minds of the lab rats on which they were testing it.


And, I am totally familiar with the "Non-Lethal"and "Less than Lethal" work by the US Army, too. That work sometimes uses "Flash-Bang" grenades, and Lasers to create pictures to create artificial invisibility...but that is not what I mean by "Mind Control." I do know, however, that White Propaganda as well as Flash Bang scare things do constitute Mind Control in some persons' minds. I was also briefed on the early (before my time) Chemical Warfare research (which ended in 1962) on BZ and other "Mind Altering" riot control agents. But I wasn't"involved" personally in any of this, either.


The above is public...I have told the folks at RU this, and OM, and many others. But folk-lore outlasts truth.

And, I was a senior analyst at CIA from 1969 through 1985...and have a dollar-a-year consultant from 1985 to the present, and I have continuously held many, many security clearances. So...in many persons' mind...that does make me evil. And, fair game. And, a probable liar. But, I am not evil or a liar about the above or anything else I have done in Intelligence (less than complete...often...about classified materials...but always and even then...consistent with the truth even if less detailed.

I am, however, fair game. I knew I would be when I took the Oath of Office before a Federal Judge when I entered on duty...and remind myself every year when I go through my security clearance reviews, or when I take a polygraph, and sign my papers re-confirming the verbal oath.

NUFF SAID...

Springer...

Originally posted by Shawnna
Saviour of the Real - I believe your thread would have had more response had you left the "ATS" part of the question out of it.

That is a sensitive issue around here and doesn't seem to facilitate discussion.

Well I was going to agree with you and say “Is UFOlogy (and ATS by extension and virtue of it’s popularity) a playground for Government mind control researchers?” would perhaps more accurately reflect what I was originally thinking but I see this thread has taken on a life of it’s own while I was MIA and I have a lot of catching up to do now…

Within your first link I found another link to one of the most coherent articles I've seen yet on this topic.

I see IsaacKoi has pointed out that “Armen Victorian” may have gotten himself in too deep but regardless, his cite of Howard Blum’s “Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials” which received some favorable mainstream publishing reviews (check it out on Amazon.com) would seem to indicate there’s perhaps more to this “mythos” than meets the eye… or not.

I think the if a poster has a government IP address the other members
should know. ATS did do a IP check accessing the board and posted it awhile back.

Then we can see if they support one another and the names
and ideas they put down and ideas they support.

I don't see much word comming in my direction, yet some of their posts did
go delete most likely on a higher authority.

Things like coils don't fly and Helium has no power when sparked in front
of a Tesla Turbine... yet their verfying statement vanishes.

They can't tell a lie related to any cover, yet do they say Aliens are real.
A puzzle, if the government says ETs are real guess we have to believe.

Originally posted by Springer
The FACTS... NOTHING changed NOTHING altered...

from an Email received by Springer from Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green:


I have never, in any way...manner...shape...or form been involved in "Mind Control" research, nor do I know anyone, personally, who has been...with the single exception of Dr. Sid Gottlieb...whom I met briefly twice in 1971. The "Brother Blue"Goblins of Langley is partially true...but not those parts! I also met Joslyn West, MD, PhD...who has been claimed to have been involved in Mind Control research on the web. It is a lie, in my personal opinion. He said he was not, and I believed him. I worked with him for many years after I left Government full-time employment, from about 1987 until he died a few years ago. A more ethical and honorable physician I have never met. I am in good company to be accused of false things like being involved in "Mind Control." He was too busy at Harvard Medical School being the Chair at the time...so I suspect that is made up. The MKULTRA program, ARTICHOKE, and BLUEBIRD psychopharmacology efforts ended from 7 to 15 years before I ever entered into government service, in 1969. I do not believe Remote Viewing is Mind Control...but if anyone does...then they might think I was a mind control person, however.

I DID assess CLAIMED Foreign (Soviet, PRC, and Eastern Bloc) research in "mind control" from about 1970 through 1985 when I left the Agency. I never, ever, found any credible evidence of any work by them either...lots of garbage, lots of claimed results, lots of hokey machines with flashing lights and loud sounds...but never anything I was willing to say I thought was a threat to the National Security of the United States. I even reviewed a Soviet LIDA-4 "Mind Control" machine...and found it to be a total fraud. (It did flash an annoying strobe light and make weird bleeping sounds that certain Russian Scientists thought was controlling the minds of the lab rats on which they were testing it.


And, I am totally familiar with the "Non-Lethal"and "Less than Lethal" work by the US Army, too. That work sometimes uses "Flash-Bang" grenades, and Lasers to create pictures to create artificial invisibility...but that is not what I mean by "Mind Control." I do know, however, that White Propaganda as well as Flash Bang scare things do constitute Mind Control in some persons' minds. I was also briefed on the early (before my time) Chemical Warfare research (which ended in 1962) on BZ and other "Mind Altering" riot control agents. But I wasn't"involved" personally in any of this, either.


The above is public...I have told the folks at RU this, and OM, and many others. But folk-lore outlasts truth.

And, I was a senior analyst at CIA from 1969 through 1985...and have a dollar-a-year consultant from 1985 to the present, and I have continuously held many, many security clearances. So...in many persons' mind...that does make me evil. And, fair game. And, a probable liar. But, I am not evil or a liar about the above or anything else I have done in Intelligence (less than complete...often...about classified materials...but always and even then...consistent with the truth even if less detailed.

I am, however, fair game. I knew I would be when I took the Oath of Office before a Federal Judge when I entered on duty...and remind myself every year when I go through my security clearance reviews, or when I take a polygraph, and sign my papers re-confirming the verbal oath.

NUFF SAID...

Springer...

Thank you VERY much, Springer and Dr. Green.

While that may be "NUFF SAID" for you, Springer, I would not expect anything less as a response from someone at Dr. Green's level.

:shk:

I reserve the right, as always, to form my own opinion, based on my own investigation and research, as well as input from other independent researchers.



I do appreciate the dialog and respect your right to form your own opinion based on Dr. Green's statements.

Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by Saviour Of The Real
I see IsaacKoi has pointed out that “Armen Victorian” may have gotten himself in too deep but regardless, his cite of Howard Blum’s “Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials” which received some favorable mainstream publishing reviews (check it out on Amazon.com) would seem to indicate there’s perhaps more to this “mythos” than meets the eye… or not.

The inability, or unwillingness, for some to even entertain the idea that the information behind the purported "mythos" may indeed be factual is distressing.

:shk:

I try to leave my own desire for a particular answer or outcome out of the equation and focus on what seems more realistic and logical based on the evidence at hand.

But again, that's just me.

Always,
Shawnna

“Is UFOlogy (and ATS by extension and virtue of it’s popularity) a playground for Government mind control researchers?” == Thread author

I would suggest one final alteration before jumping in.

Is UFOlogy (and alternate reality theories/conspiracies) a playground for mind control research ?
If this slightly altered question can be answered, then the researchers may be a surprise. What if it is NOT
the Government at all ?

"Part of understanding the tendrils of UFOlogy is the ability to put aside prejudice and examine the many facets openly." == cheepnis

I have never seen this done. Would you have an example available ?
Note by removing the word "Government" from the topic question, I am
addressing an obvious prejudice built into the topic question.

Originally posted by nightwing
"Part of understanding the tendrils of UFOlogy is the ability to put aside prejudice and examine the many facets openly." == cheepnis

I have never seen this done. Would you have an example available ?
Note by removing the word "Government" from the topic question, I am
addressing an obvious prejudice built into the topic question.

That is true - it does address an obvious prejudice built into the topic question.

However, before we can proceed, it is important we agree on a definition of "government". Are we talking about official government sponsored covert programs?

OR

Are we talking about private entities that are/were affiliated with some sort of government agency?

Is there another potential definition of "government" in this discussion?

Let's be sure we're all on the same song sheet before trying to begin the harmony. Just an idea....

Always,
Shawnna

"Is there another potential definition of "government" in this discussion?" == Shawnna

There could be, but I thank you for making my point a little clearer. Instead of focusing on "The
Government", the question has merit in its own right. Solving that basic question should
point to the movers and shakers. Don't let the "prejudice" in the question do the
"work" for you. Besides, I always like a bit of a thrill in the mix. Recall the basic
premise of the movie "Three Days of the Condor". And No, Lost Shaman, that
is NOT a reference to the Avairy.

So, we have these experts who are in the field of 'less than lethal' technology.

And what does that have to do with "UFO disinformation"? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Geez. You know you'd think that the national laboratories etc have people working on advanced technologies and engineering. Indeed that's exactly what they are doing.

What's the purpose? Think about the government contracting cycle. First way out scientists come up with some odd effect or idea, DARPA says, "hey we might be able to use that". When they say "use" they definitely aren't thinking about nerds on a bulletin board. They are thinking about soldiers in Iraq or North Korea. Some papers get written, and Phase I contracts get awarded, and some labs do stuff, and a few years later there's a little bit of knowledge. Then the brass etc eventually decide if it seems like it might work, and still is compatible with their agency's goals they start thinking about more serious engineering. Whehter it it goes ahead doesn't depend just on scientific feasibility but usual burrocratic turbulence and policy , which can change quickly as bureaucracies change, and new directors get put in---they don't want to fund any predecessor's pet project, since that will make the predecessor look good if it works, and them look bad if it fails).

And if it makes it then Lock-Mart (Always High Prices) or whoever gets a contract to make them and a lot of money and the people and firms who know what is going on get shut out because they don't have lobbyists and facilities in the right congressional districts. And then Lockmart ends up hiring the people who know how stuff works back again as subcontractors, but after taking their hefty hefty do nothing cut.


Sorry for that diversion. But this world is what those guys are doing, in my opinion. They are in the cycle of getting funding for their research on the supposed hope that something they do might help give soldiers wizzy less-than-lethal weaponry and newfangled toys.

Somebody who studies if somebody can be tasered or zapped is totally different from the supposed "plants" who "infiltrate" the UFO discussion boards.

Consider that in the government there has to be funding justification for everything, even at the sooper secret levels. It doesn't seem reasonable that trolling UFO boards is ever going to make the cut of justifying a GS employee's time.

Originally posted by Springer
YES there has been disinfo spread about, 99.9999% of it was relative to the stealth fighter/bomber program in the 1980's.

I must have missed something. What disinfo are you referring to exactly?

Some facts about the F-117 program…

(paraphrasing from a recent article in the AV Press)

Stealth fighter flies toward scrap heap
Some believe retirement premature

Lockheed Advanced Development Projects (aka "Skunk Works") was awarded the F-117 contract (code name "Have Blue") in 1973 and was classified until 1988. It made a first flight in 1977 and was tested in the Groom Lake region and housed at Tonopah Test Range. Delivery of the first production jet took place in 1982 and it was fully operational by 1983. Only 59 F-117s were produced.

Less than 3 of the "Aviary" had ANY knowledge much less involvement in that STUPID ploy. Less than half of these men have EVER MET each other.

Sure, and it’s entirely possible the reasons they’re involved in UFOlogy are as varied as the individuals themselves and the only thing that truly “links” them together is similar backgrounds and a greater than average interest in this subject.

The "mind control" hoax is a joke. Perpetuated by the same ilk as the serpo hoax. (that should say it all)

I have met and got to know people from BOTH SIDES, the "aviary" and the hoaxers/obsessed not to mention a couple Skunk Works guys... It's pure bollocks IMHO.

Perhaps we’re talking about two different things? The whole MKULTRA thing is a separate issue in my mind (no pun intended) which I really have no opinion on or any interest in although maybe I should? As noted earlier “mind control” is a fairly broad topic that can be applied to a number of disciplines, many of which would naturally require experiments to be carried out in the field (or “wild” as they say) in order to study I would think.

What I have seen happen is the chasing away of the some of the most brilliant minds on the planet who actually have a GENUINE INTEREST, as a HUMAN BEING not a disinfo/mind control freak, in these topics. Now I wonder WHY the charlatans are so keen on chasing away the best and brightest?

COULD IT BE they fear exposure?

If possible, it would be great to hear from Dr. Green here in his own words why he’s involved in the field of UFOlogy and what his professional and/or personal opinion of the subject is unless there’s some other place you can point us to where that’s already available?

Originally posted by nightwing
I would suggest one final alteration before jumping in.

Is UFOlogy (and alternate reality theories/conspiracies) a playground for mind control research ?
If this slightly altered question can be answered, then the researchers may be a surprise. What if it is NOT the Government at all ?

That's an excellent point, or perhaps it was only in the past if ever and even then it was a matter of scale?

With respect to understanding the intersection of UFOlogy and PsyOps research/work, I believe you have to think outside the box a bit.

For me to venture down that tunnel of this complex rabbit hole, I have to look at the background and history of those bird names that continue to pop up whenever something like serpo comes on the scene.

Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD.

Harold Puthoff

The above two individuals were directly involved with Rick Doty, Bill Ryan and Victor Martinez.

These individuals were the "Team of 5" wrt to serpo.

The question I have always had, and continue to have, is why were Dr. Green and Hal Puthoff involved in such a nonsensical story as serpo?

Further, why would Dr. Green and Hal Puthoff associate themselves with the likes of Rick (a self-admitted disinformation professional), Bill (a charlatan and con man of the first order), and Victor (a convicted criminal using webtv and an email list)?

In examining the historical relationships and work of the individuals involved, it is quite clear that some of those with interest in PsyOps programs appear to have a historical interest in UFOlogy as well. I have to ask why?

When you start following the relationships and research, the intersection is apparent.

I do believe this is explained quite clearly in the three-part article written by Caryn Anscomb and published at starstreamresearch.com I posted previously.

Did anyone read it yet? I'll post it again here and would very much appreciate your considered response AFTER reading it.

Part 1.

Part 2.

Part 3.


And cheepnis - I will be looking into your suggested tendril - didn't want you to think I was ignorning your post. I am out of town and won't have time for more research until I return later this week.

Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by Saviour Of The Real
I must have missed something. What disinfo are you referring to exactly?

I have heard that AFOSI were "not smart enough" to actually use "UFOs" as a cover for the Stealth's test flights.

They allegedly encouraged the "UFO theory" relative to sightings of the stealth by the general public. This where, so the story goes, Rick Doty got involved with the whole UFO scene. He was one of the AFOSI guys who were promoting the "UFO cover story" for the stealth flights. That's what I was referring to.



Springer...

Originally posted by Shawnna
Further, why would Dr. Green and Hal Puthoff associate themselves with the likes of Rick (a self-admitted disinformation professional), Bill (a charlatan and con man of the first order), and Victor (a convicted criminal using webtv and an email list)?

That's a little confused IMHO...

Firstly, NOTHING was known about VM's "past" at that time nor was BR considered in any particular way to be anything more than the guy who started the serpo site at that time. Why do you pose the question in such a way that it leads one to think Kit and Hal did know these things?

Kit was never "associated" with Victor or Bill in any way prior to Rick bringing serpo to his attention. The reason Rick brought it to their attention is because they have been friends since meeting in Europe I think it was Europe) while working for the U.S. Government 25 or so years ago. I have been told he brought it to their attention under the auspices of asking them to "check around" about the "DIA" people purportedly involved and see if they were genuine. This would indicate that RD did an "end around" and drug his friends into the fray of the serpo unwittingly if one agrees with the "RD" was "in on" serpo consensus.

To say that Kit and Hal Puthoff were/are associated with VM, or BR is not a fair statement. They responded to emails about a story Kit's friend, Rick, asked them about. That's a VERY LOOSE "association" IMHO.

"Guilt by Association" is a slippery slope and one that I think has been resolved in this case.

Springer...

[edit on 11-29-2006 by Springer]

Originally posted by Springer
Firstly, NOTHING was known about VM's "past" at that time nor was BR considered in any particular way to be anything more than the guy who started the serpo site at that time. Why do you pose the question in such a way that it leads one to think Kit and Hal did know these things?

Kit has known about Rick Doty's history for years - and has done nothing to distance himself whatsoever.

With respect to BR and VM - I say that because I believe they did know.

For individuals at this level in their profession, it seems quite a risky decision to associate yourself with others if you haven't done your own homework on their reputation and integrity.

:shk:

Originally posted by Springer
Kit was never "associated" with Victor or Bill in any way prior to Rick bringing serpo to his attention. The reason Rick brought it to their attention is because they have been friends since meeting in Europe I think it was Europe) while working for the U.S. Government 25 or so years ago. I have been told he brought it to their attention under the auspices of asking them to "check around" about the "DIA" people purportedly involved and see if they were genuine. This would indicate that RD did an "end around" and drug his friends into the fray of the serpo unwittingly if one agrees with the "RD" was "in on" serpo consensus.

And how do you know this, Springer?

Originally posted by SpringerTo say that Kit and Hal Puthoff were/are associated with VM, or BR is not a fair statement. They responded to emails about a story Kit's friend, Rick, asked them about. That's a VERY LOOSE "association" IMHO.

I am hopeful you will share how you came to this conclusion, Springer. As it is quite contrary to the evidence I have seen.

Originally posted by Springer"Guilt by Association" is a slippery slope and one that I think has been resolved in this case.

Springer...

I agree it is a slippery slope - but I disagree that that is what is in play in this situation.

It would be quite helpful to understand how you have come to the conclusion that this has been resolved.

Always,
Shawnna


[edit on 29-11-2006 by Shawnna]

Originally posted by Springer

I have heard that AFOSI were "not smart enough" to actually use "UFOs" as a cover for the Stealth's test flights.

They allegedly encouraged the "UFO theory" relative to sightings of the stealth by the general public. This where, so the story goes, Rick Doty got involved with the whole UFO scene. He was one of the AFOSI guys who were promoting the "UFO cover story" for the stealth flights. That's what I was referring to.

AFOSI involvement with UFOs goes all the way back to 1947 when AFOSI split with CIC.

Major Edward Doty ( Richards Uncle ) claims to have been a UFO investigator for Holloman AFB ( Alamogordo ) and Liaison for AFOSI, his day job was Mogul Project Officer , and in fact there is a declassified UFO report with Major Edward Doty's name on it. His name also appears on Project Twinkle Final Report. Major Edward Doty also implicated Charles Doty ( Richards Father ) in involvement with a UFO project. So the Doty Family involvement with UFOs goes back pretty far as well.


Dr. Lincoln La Paz was involved with AFOSI and UFO investigation in New Mexico in the late 1940's. He eventually accused Hynek and the Air force of "being part of a cover-up". So the idea here that the Air Force/AFOSI has spread disinformation is figuratively as "old as the Hills".




[edit on 29-11-2006 by lost_shaman]

Very interesting twist of the thread- interesting read to say the least.

Mind Control research may be the wrong term to describe the experiment correctly. It is the control of the information available- "Digital Maoism"

Eat well!

I agree using the phrase "mind control" is a bit misleading --- I think Creating a UFO Meme is more relevant.

Stalking the UFO meme on the Internet
Memes are contagious ideas that replicate like viruses from mind to mind. The Internet is like a Petri dish in which memes multiply rapidly. Fed by fascination, incubated in the feverish excitement of devotees transmitting stories of cosmic significance, the UFO meme mutates into new forms, some of them wondrous and strange.

"The Roswell incident" is but one variation of the UFO meme.

Snip....

The World is a Blank Screen
Certain phenomena, including UFOs and religious symbols, elicit powerful projections. We think we're seeing "out there" what is really inside us. Because projections are unconscious, we don't know if we're looking at iron filings obscuring a magnet or the magnet itself.

Carl Jung said UFOs invite projections because they're mandalas -- archetypal images of our deep Selves. Unless we separate what he think we see from what we see, we're bound to be confused.

Repetition makes any statement seem true.

Just ask Bob Collins.



Snip....

The Soul of the Web
According to Jung, when the psyche projects its contents onto an archetypal symbol, there is always secrecy, fascination, and high energy. When a webmaster finds an article like Sender's he gets excited, plucks it out of cyberspace, and puts it on his site. Come across it four or five times, you start to believe it.

Tracking down the truth about the "Roswell incident" is like hunting the mythical Snark in the Carroll poem. The closer one gets to the "evidence," the more its disappears.

There is in fact not one living "witness" to the "Roswell incident" in the public domain, not one credible report that is not filtered through a private interview or other privileged communication.

There are, though, lots of people making a living from it.

My sense is we have a group of people hell-bent on creating a certain belief system as it relates to UFO's.



Always,
Shawnna

PS - I'm still waiting for Springer to answer my questions.


[edit on 29-11-2006 by Shawnna]