The Aliens are Demons/Angels Debate.

How did religions come about anyways? If aliens have been with us throughout our history, known only by myth and legend and connected to the various religions, then wouldn't it be fascinating if we were to discover that they did in fact exist in the minds of our Stone Age ancestors?

Back in the Upper Palaeolithic age, which started 50,000 years ago, there were groups of us kicking back in the hills and valleys of Western Europe. We were hunter/gatherers and were living a fairly decent life, hanging out with Neanderthals and making plenty of art on cave walls or whatever else took our fancy. We loved to 'decorate'.

Why?

by David Lewis-Williams in The Mind in the Cave (Thames and Hudson)

(from the preface pg 10)

Chapter 7 moves on to explore the possibility that the people of the Upper Palaeolithic harnessed what we call altered states of consciousness to fashion their society and that they used imagery as a means of establishing and defining social relationships. It considers two types of consciousness: primary consciousness and higher-order consciousness. I argue that the development of higher-order consciousness made image-making possible - though not inevitable. It was at this time that image-making (art), religion and social distinctions appeared in western Europe.

boldings mine

So, the thing would be to study those images they created back then and see if there are any images which might suggest alien figures and UFO's in the art of our ancient ancestors. If they do seem like they could be the same, it would prove that the phenomena are either a fiction of our lying brains or that we humans are actually capable, as Alien Agenda suggests in his thread, to be able to connect with beings of another dimension.

I know...it's looks like a stretch, but, there is a lot of good evidence out there. I'm going to be using the books I have in my possesion to try to establish my argument for what I consider to be the truth behind it all.

Here's my premise, which I hope to defend in this thread:

Early Homo Sapiens had the ability to enter altered states of consciousness, where they came into contact with strange beings in what they called the Underworld. These beings were very real, interacted with the shaman who visited them and even followed them back into this dimension. This has been going on for as long as Homo Sapiens existed, (but so far there are only artifacts dating back 70,000 years).

These journeys to meet and talk with these 'spiritual entities' became so important, that society became based on a heirarchy which placed the shaman as a person of importance. These men and women are today the priests, priestesses, reverends, popes, monks and cult leaders.

These entities are also seen by those of us who are not religious and are thereby taken to be aliens travelling from distant star systems in UFO's, like Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise, going where no alien has ever gone before.

The bottom line is...they've always been here and we've always seen them, but, because they are from another dimension, they are rarely seen by the mass of the populations.

I don't undersatnd why these Aliens if in this UFO realted univers would be here from thousands of years ago and yet keep quiet still about it. They could have openly had a represenstive for their kind to get on with man kind, why wait for use to grow in populations of Billions when the process could have been a lot simpler if they kept some record of them selfs for us to see. The only record keeping was God from the Bible it seems and he has made that so man remembers him.

To me its the the old Devil story he just won't show him self they know we would take God of the Bible as our saviour not him.

Originally posted by The time lord
Angels according to the Bible have their own spheres to travel in Ezekiel's Wheels for example

Is it not possible that this is an example of people seeing an Alien craft and misrepresenting it? People that long ago would have no similar technology, and would identify the unexplained as angels or demons because that's what they understood.

Originally posted by The time lord
I don't undersatnd why these Aliens if in this UFO realted univers would be here from thousands of years ago and yet keep quiet still about it.

I don't believe they have been silent. I think that for tens of thousands of years 'they' have involved themselves in our affairs to a huge degree. Just consider the number and variations of religions the world contains...it's chock-a-block with belief in The Spiritual.

They could have openly had a represenstive for their kind to get on with man kind

If Jesus, God and Mohammed, Buddha, Kali (for instances) can be called representatives of the spiritual world, then there has never in recorded history been a time when they weren't getting on cheek to jowl with man.

why wait for use to grow in populations of Billions when the process could have been a lot simpler if they kept some record of them selfs for us to see.

Perhaps, because they are from in the spiritual world, they cannot stay within the material world as flesh and blood beings, but can only 'materialise' here or 'posses' a body temporarily. Therefore, there could be no 'material' record.

The only record keeping was God from the Bible it seems and he has made that so man remembers him.

I don't believe that the Christian bible is the only religious text that was kept. It was made so that Christians will remember Him

To me its the the old Devil story he just won't show him self they know we would take God of the Bible as our saviour not him.

Sorry, I'm a Deist, so I don't believe that at all.

But, I would defend your right to believe what you will with my last breath.

Originally posted by megaslayer
It is an interesting topic
I remember reading something like the vatican stated to not link demons to aliens, hmmm I wonder why not?

Again...Where is there any "evidence" to even suggest that aliens are demonic,other than in "christian" circles? I have never seena ny compelling evidence to even suggest the real possibility of them being demonic. Nada...

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
What purpose would a spiritual entity have in maneuvering a physical craft around? Whether it be angel or demon,I don't see its necessity in having a physical craft.How would an ethereal beng even be able to pilot a physical craft?

Thats the point. They dont. Thats for our benefit, not anything they need. If they are trying to portray Extraterrestial aliens....well...hello.

I have studied the UFO/alien "experience" for going on 20+ years now, and in interviewing a hell off alot of people, I saw some very interesting commonalities. Not in the sighting or experience itself, but the effect on the individual.

Many people who were quite religious, or had a pretty solid spiritual base, abandoned it after having a sighting or experience, and delving in to the subject. They would declare that there was no God, and that we were seeded here by these "aliens".

One was a preacher, and he left preaching to pursue the enigma of UFOs because he became obsessed with the subject, as many do. He is convinced these beings are what created us, and that they are "God".

Now that said, I think it's a little more then fair to say that if a "demonic" presence wanted to turn people from belief in God, or just spirituality in general, well....ya gotta admit this is a pretty good ruse. Not only that, but wouldnt such a being(s) take great joy in dangling the carrot we will never catch or even prove the carrot exists? The agony of a mystery with no end? No answers, just more questions?

It's called torment.

People often point to history to say these beings have been around for millennia. I would say inserting itself into our history is more then a piece of cake for spiritual beings. The better the story, the more people are to believe it. The more who believe the lie...you get the idea.

We've often heard about deception in spiritual teachings. Perhaps this is but one instance.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Again...Where is there any "evidence" to even suggest that aliens are demonic,other than in "christian" circles? I have never seena ny compelling evidence to even suggest the real possibility of them being demonic. Nada...

I dont think youre looking in the right place. It's not about the craft or beings, although there are some instances of different craft having 13 marks, windows, lights, whatever. I also have to acknowledge Aliester Crowley's "Lem", who he claimed was a spiritual being that looks almost identical to our grey "alien".

You have to examine people. We dont have craft or aliens to examine. The real story is in how it effects people it gets ahold of.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
[Again...Where is there any "evidence" to even suggest that aliens are demonic,other than in "christian" circles? I have never seena ny compelling evidence to even suggest the real possibility of them being demonic. Nada...

Well, I see your point, but it is common to have demons in very many different religions.

I only looked in one place...sacred-texts.com, a wonderful learning tool.

In Buddhism The demon with the matted hair;

www.sacred-texts.com...

"Go, my son; in the kingdom of Candahar, in the city of Takkasila, is a far-famed teacher from whom I wish you to learn. Take this, and give it him for a fee." With that he gave him a thousand pieces of money, and dismissed him.

The lad departed and was educated by this teacher; he received the Five Weapons from him as a gift, bade him farewell, and leaving Takkasila, he began his journey to Benares, armed with the Five Weapons.

On his way he came to a forest inhabited by the Demon with the Matted Hair.

and SÂRIPUTTA AND THE TWO DEMONS

www.sacred-texts.com...

Now it chanced that the venerable Sâriputta, on a moonlight night, was seated under the open sky, with freshly shaven head, and in a state of trance. And it chanced that two demons, who were comrades, were passing on some errand from the northern quarter of the heavens to the southern.

and 1 more of many instances

THE ANGER-EATING DEMON

www.sacred-texts.com...

"O wonderful is it! O marvellous is it! Here this sickly-looking and decrepit demon has taken his seat on the throne of Sakka, the leader of the gods!"

There are demons aplenty in the Far East as well. Places like Nepal or Tibet, where modern religions mix easily with really old Stone Age ones are full of the stories of demons. In Nepal, for instance, they look at demons (diamons) as intermediaries between Gods and us living humans. They could be good or bad, or good today, bad tomorrow, depending on how things were going for them. It wasn't until Christianity came there that they became 'only bad'.

Their demons are actually just humans, who, after they died, had to 'stick around because they had lost love or compassion, much like the common American movie idea of a ghost that hangs around after a brutal murder to haunt the lives of the living.

But, more importantly, they were spirits who dwelled between the spiritual and material worlds (or three worlds, depending who you talk to )

Originally posted by masqua
There are demons aplenty in the Far East as well. Places like Nepal or Tibet, where modern religions mix easily with really old Stone Age ones are full of the stories of demons. In Nepal, for instance, they look at demons (diamons) as intermediaries between Gods and us living humans. They could be good or bad, or good today, bad tomorrow, depending on how things were going for them. It wasn't until Christianity came there that they became 'only bad'.

Their demons are actually just humans, who, after they died, had to 'stick around because they had lost love or compassion, much like the common American movie idea of a ghost that hangs around after a brutal murder to haunt the lives of the living.

But, more importantly, they were spirits who dwelled between the spiritual and material worlds (or three worlds, depending who you talk to

)

Masqua,I amnot debating that there are demons;I am fairly certain there are.. However,I am debating whether they are connected with the UFO phenomenon though. I have see many UFOs in my life,never to be left with these "feelings" that jritzmann is talking about... Actually,if anything, I had a deeper spirituality from my experiences with UFOs...

jritsmann said

[/I have studied the UFO/alien "experience" for going on 20+ years now, and in interviewing a hell off alot of people, I saw some very interesting commonalities. Not in the sighting or experience itself, but the effect on the individual.

Many people who were quite religious, or had a pretty solid spiritual base, abandoned it after having a sighting or experience, and delving in to the subject.

I am not doubting that you may have "studied" this phenomenon,but I just have to question the people's conviction in what they believed if they changed that much after the experience. While I certainly have never had any "contact" with the beings that operate these vehicles, I have certainly spotted more than my share of UFOs... If anything,they have just increased my sense of spirituality..Of course, I have never been "religious" but I am certainly spiritual...

[I also have to acknowledge Aliester Crowley's "Lem", who he claimed was a spiritual being that looks almost identical to our grey "alien".
/quote]

My knowledge of Crowley is rather limited..I do know that much of the information about him is misunderstood and misrepresented... However,I have never delved that deeply into his writings or beliefs.. I am aware that he claimes to have had encounters with a "being that frightened him much." However,any claims by a man who also claimed to be "The Beast of Revelation," should be held in question.

Some aliens appear to want to help us while others appear to want to enslave us, but the most interesting thing is that both sides do so in an unoffical manour.

What is prevent these two groups of aliens from making offical contact, the ones with the sinister intentions are quite understandable but what about the ones who really want to help us? Is it because they are fearful of our primitive religious believes/minds or is it because of some unwritten rule/agreement between them that we do not know about.

Are the two groups in conflict with one another or are they the same and have a similar agenda but are using two different methods to achieve the same goal.

Does the bible and other ancient religious text hold the answers to these questions. Why are they all so interested in human beings? are they after our souls or is it something else.

I think that everthing is tied togather somehow, spirits, aliens, demons, angels, gods, humans, souls. If only we knew more...... what is the truth?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am not doubting that you may have "studied" this phenomenon,but I just have to question the people's conviction in what they believed if they changed that much after the experience.

Well...I'm trying to think of a way to put that that doesnt sound like I'm being mean...cuz I really dont mean this in that way. Understand that...internet communication sucks sometimes.

I think if you havent had an "alien" experience, then you'd not have any idea what ramifications would be on you. I always explain it to people like this.

All we're doing is talking. Right? It's safe and it's controlled by us. Now, imagine tonight or tomorrow, or whenever, "they" are right in front of you. Undeniable. And it's "real". In fact, more real then real. Can you imagine the cold reality of that? All the talk you've heard, all the stories...theyre all at a comfortable distance. Theyre someone else. Someplace else.

Now it's you. And it's all real. And you dont want to be here. At all.

It'll change your life. You can believe that. Yeah you might have a bigger view of reality and this world, but it'd also be a realization that you have absolutely no hold on reality, like you thought. It splits you like a piece of pine.

I'd say theyre convictions were strong as anyone's. But this is a very personal and impactful experience. Beyond impactful.

Just as a side note, you do realize seeing more then one UFO, if any, is extrordinarily rare. Seeing so many usually points to some reason. Whether it be as mundane as Govt black projects, or as extrordinary as possible involvement in the enigma itself.

Originally posted by ixiy
Why are they all so interested in human beings? are they after our souls or is it something else.

Ten million dollar question. While I dont claim to have any solid answers, my suspicion and feeling is that their interest is our soul. Do to what with, again I have guesses I feel comfortable with as far as my own truth, but who can say 100%.

Originally posted by jritzmann
Just as a side note, you do realize seeing more then one UFO, if any, is extrordinarily rare. Seeing so many usually points to some reason. Whether it be as mundane as Govt black projects, or as extrordinary as possible involvement in the enigma itself.

Yeah,I am quite aware of that fact.. I will say that it has been a number of years since I have seen one and the ones that I have seen were primarily in my teen years. I am sure that there were some of them that were just satellites and my mind said "UFO."

I think we need to make sure we are analyzing our own human interpretations towards foreign concepts before we try to label what the aliens are.

The "savages" of the New World were demonized and killed.
The "savages" of Africa were seen as less than human and enslaved.
The "barabarians" of Europe were killed by Rome.
The "christians" were lion meat to Rome
The "jews" were scapegoats for the Nazis
The "infidels" of the West are bombed for their lack of Islamic belief.

But let us not forget there are:
Serial killers
Child molesters
...and other psychological disorders that can be considered "demonic"

And then there's the natural world that can seem demonic if you get in its way:
Hurricanes
Blizzards
Sharks
Disease
Radiation
(even death to some)

I think we all know inside of us is a little person that is insecure and hates things that challenge our world view. I think the aliens are similar, yet demand a more "out of the box" way of thinking. Our natural gut reaction is that aliens "look" different so they get a demon label...ugly looks equal mean person, ugly with a ray gun and a ufo equals a demon.


They may possess both physical and dimensional properties that confuse us. They may be able to live in 4-D, while we live in 3-D. We give them spiritual powers because we don't understand how they do what they do, we don't control those powers yet. And since as far as we know humans are the smartest, coolest flavor of ice cream to ever hit the universe, that when something else shows up that beats us...well that's because they're "spiritual". They may already be beyond a physical or "cyborg" world and have bodies that can change genetically or dimensionally thanks to technology.

We poison, eat, pollute, trap, torture, and occassionaly love (usually the furry ones) animals. We are incredibly more demonic in the eyes of the natural world than anything the aliens have done. Maybe their way of life appears demonic to us because we're lower on the totem pole...they may be driving their boats on the river and us dumb human manatees are getting chopped up by their propellers

I think the aliens are going to "shake us up". Either we learn to live with the universe or maybe we need to be taken out of it. Mabye our time to evolve on this planet has gone far enough and we need to move on and let some other creatures use this planet to grow. Maybe we're the big kid still hanging out in the nursery and destroying everything and the aliens are here to say "time to grow up". I certainly remember how much I hated my parents the first day I had to go to school. I'm not saying they will kill us, but they may try to teach us that human consciousness is becoming too powerful and deadly to remain on this planet and needs to be taken to a different reality or different physical realm.


I think the aliens are or were "natural" physcial beings (there may be different aliens with different levels of tech), but some have evolved into a less physicall creature and more a conscious centered entity. I'm sure some are "bad news" to us, maybe because we don't "matter" (pun intended) to them. They may have mastered quantum physics and can manipulate or create energy that allows their own reality. Their way of life may be a hot stove to us.

Now if their only goal is to abduct us and torture us...then calling them demons, even if they're not is fine. I don't care if it's a Nazi with a gun or an alien with a flaming pitchfork, my goal is survival. If they haven't evolved enough to understand that creatures don't like to have their free will taken away, then they don't deserve our respect. Though I have to say a lot humans have this problem still. Give a human a ray gun, UFO, a shiny suit, an ugly looking face, and show up at night...and presto you've got a candidate for a demon.

Isn't it a matter of perception?

Just consider this as a thought........If you are running around a couple thousands years ago and you saw an aerodynamic craft shooting at something, with your belief system espousing demons and such, believe that this was a fire-breathing dragon? or demon?
I would think that is what would be written down as experienced.

I don't think that the people back then understood what they saw in the way that TODAY'S era would.

So just maybe, an advanced human or alien civilization might be percieved as heavenly helpful or devilishly evil, depending all upon your point of view.

Just my 2 cents trying to interpret the thread.

Evidence suggests there is no comparison between hallucinations and 'visitor' phenomena. They are easily identified as one from the other. However, I do agree with Masqua that there is an interaction between fields of experience that other creatures seem to have more access to. For instance, if they are visitors from another planet, they do seem to have the ability to move through planes of existence on earth more easily than people do. They can probably apprehend and communicate with the stone people, the deer people, etc. with the confidence of an adept.

I have a tendency to agree with Hank McCoy, that they've probably been here alot longer than us.

All Seeing Eye said: "The next logical question might be, what if anything should or could be done. Do we simply resign ourselves to the reality that we are creations that are owned and done with as the creators wish, or do we have a God given right to self determination."

And -

Text "For anyone who has studied the Illuminati you will see that in reality it is just a game of monopoly on a global level, and the puppet masters, are the "hidden forces", the creators."

Perhaps the added sound and light show is to encourage rather than discourage self-determintion. That is a development every soul takes personally, after all, and not as a collective.

Maybe the TPTB are just trying to apprehend the appearance of having interaction with these forces in order to increase their power over people.

Masqua's reference to Lord Shiva's dance shortly afterwards points to the human position of seeking that power to which we are only subject to.

Masqua also says: "..here are demons aplenty in the Far East as well. Places like Nepal or Tibet, where modern religions mix easily with really old Stone Age ones are full of the stories of demons. In Nepal, for instance, they look at demons (diamons) as intermediaries between Gods and us living humans. They could be good or bad, or good today, bad tomorrow, depending on how things were going for them. It wasn't until Christianity came there that they became 'only bad'."

Christianity also unfortunately became entrenched during some very dark ages. It reminds me of Black Elk's words (which I loosely paraphrase): "Until a person gives their robe and spirit in service to God, there's no such thing as friends, what you get are friendly enemies." That is true of our relationship to each other, I think he meant it must also extend to other creatures in the universe.

Hypergraphics says: " You have to examine people. We dont have craft or aliens to examine. The real story is in how it effects people it gets ahold of."

That is a very good point, but what also needs to be examined is the motivation of the people in their different reactions. There are only certain levels of understanding available in the Western empiracal context and all of them concern attaining power. Knowledge is power.

I read that the Buddhist's say if a soul finds itself in a hell realm, the way out is to love the demon, thereby transcending the problems that created the situation. Failing that, they find caves to hide in, which are wombs through which they are reborn.

It may all be an expression of the human mind. We have built entire civilizations with such expression. The mind is a powerful negotiator of reality and nowhere is this more evident than when one loses a modicum of normal conscious control over it. The deeper the sentience the greater the impact of both negative and positive force. I do feel that early shamans have had interaction with all manner of spiritual entities, including 'aliens' and that the 'aliens' are also able to interact with these forces and creatures with greater ease.




[edit on 21-11-2006 by clearwater]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am just going to be honest here. I have heard this argument about UFOs having spiritual entities in them. I don't buy it.

What purpose would a spiritual entity have in maneuvering a physical craft around? Whether it be angel or demon,I don't see its necessity in having a physical craft.How would an ethereal beng even be able to pilot a physical craft?

No,I think that UFOs are piloted by very physical bodies. I find the extraterrestrial argument much more convincing than the angel/demon theory that has been floating around for quite some time.

[edit on 20-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

_____________________

I agree with your point above. I feel no need to basically repeat what's been written by SpeakerofTruth.
But would add, demons and spiritual entities are in a different dimensions and UFOs seen by the naked eye or seen only through pics due to shutter speed are in our physical reality. You could proablt touch it, as Stephen Michalak case. He got burned by it.

That does not mean they didn't originate in another reality or can't go between the two, or more, I feel. The Droppa stone post may have more help in that the Shuttle mission where the tether broke away and lit-up attracted craft very similar to stone, ie notched edge with a hole in the middle. There are probably many sites that have that NASA recorded video on hand to see, still.

Dallas

edit: archives.cbc.ca...


[edit on 21-11-2006 by Dallas]

i am not as intellectual as most of you seem to be.
however, this is what i believe about the topic.

i think the whole question of aliens and demons (in a small part) has been fueled by the discoveries of a few research groups. one in paticular is CE-4 Reasearch.
found here:
alienresistance.org...

i dont want to defend what they are saying, but, they are saying an abduction can be stoped cold by invoking Jesus's name.
this brings a whole lot of questions.

and then you put that with what all of the so-called "light workers" and "light beings" and whatever else they are calling themselves are saying. and you have a strange coincidence.

the light workers are saying, that they are helping the aliens spred the message of love and understanding. so that people can rise the vibrational levels. because soon, there will be first contact.
now look at how they describe first contact. it is very similar to the book of Revelations. especially the rapture part.
(im sorry i dont have links. ill look for them if requested)

both of these theroies have been push around the ufo centers everywhere.
i suppose it is a bit one sided in viewpoint.
but the two theries cross each other at the point of "rapture / first contact"

i believe this is how these things came to be pondered.
do i believe it? maybe..... i cant realy say.
but what CE-4 research group and others a claiming, is something to realy think about.

Originally posted by HankMcCoy

I am not certain, but I also seem to remember an account in the Bible of something like a UFO falling into the Nile, I will have to research this though, so don't hold me to it.

Many different religons and societies would try to explain what they saw in terms of what they knew. Apollo used to charge his chariot across the sky, after all. SO if they were trying to describe beings that had supernatural power, but did not conform to their ideas of their gods, they must be either the god's demons and angels.

I don't remember anything falling into the Nile. I do remember the story of Elijah when he left. A charroit with flaming horses came to take him away, and his mantal fell to Elija.

Then there is Enoch who was taken away alive, since he was so close to God. The Bible records that he never died.

Then there is the story of Moses' death. How an angel and demon argued over his body.

I still think anliens are demons who where cast out. In the occult other "entities" from the spiritual realm can possess or take over someone's body. Now we have alien abducting humans on spacecraft. They don't need a physical ship to get around, but would need a physical ship to abduct someone. Their cloning and other experiments may be to create bodies possibly without souls, so the demons can take over those bodies.

If demons already created clones, the clones would also need a physical way to be able to get around. If the Bible is correct on Gensis 6 and the "Nephelium" and how God destroyed practically everyone because of them. Maybe this time the "Nephelium" are doing the same thing as before, but for some reason do not want to risk their offspring growing up on Earth.

This may help explain their reasoning when they kidnapp women and impregnant them, but the child is taken by the aliens before she can give birth here on Earth. Later on they abduct her again to let her see her child. For some reason they fear letting their crossbreeds be on Earth whether they fear human reaction, or another more powerful entity in the spiritual world Isreal/Christians would call God.

well my theory has been for a long while that the gods, demon, angels and other spiritual beings were actually early alien visitations but hey my theory would probaly only go down well with an atheist audience cuz i dont beleive in spiritual stuff but its cool wen ppl can have their opinions and wantr to beleive in spiritual stuff