China sub secretly stalked US carrier battle group

The Chinese think we won't be willing to trade LA or Seattle for Taipei.
And they're probably right.


The stakes are a lot higher for them, it's part of their country that they want back in the fold.

Imagine the losing side of a civil war 60 years ago took over Texas and seceded.
And imagine now that the Chinese were arming Texas.

How far would we go?

Originally posted by xmotex
The Chinese think we won't be willing to trade LA or Seattle for Taipei.
And they're probably right.


The stakes are a lot higher for them, it's part of their country that they want back in the fold.

Imagine the losing side of a civil war 60 years ago took over Texas and seceded.
And imagine now that the Chinese were arming Texas.

How far would we go?

straight up, i wouldnt like it. You dont honestly think china would suceed in attempting to nuke the US do you. They may suceed in an attempt. But im sure we would have all there facilitys destroyed before they could get a nuke off the ground. we would then proceed in makeing china pay by wipeing off a billion ppl from this planet. We should just do away with nuclear weaponary. No one wins anyway.

yes we would completely demolish them

Originally posted by semperfoo
But im sure we would have all there facilitys destroyed before they could get a nuke off the ground.

How sure are you?

You dont honestly think china would suceed in attempting to nuke the US do you.

If they wanted to take out some West Coast cities, there is not a damn thing we could do to stop them. China's major launch sites are essentially hollowed out mountains, there is no way we could knock them all out with 100% certainty. And NMD is made to counter one or two missiles coming from ther likes ok NK, it is totally incapable of countering the dozens the Chinese could throw at us.

And yeah, we'd retaliate, but subtract a few cities and the US wouldn't be the US anymore, whether we "win" or not.

As you said, nobody wins.
When it comes to a nuclear exchange, "victory" is a meaningless term.

[edit on 12/15/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by xmotex
The Chinese think we won't be willing to trade LA or Seattle for Taipei.
And they're probably right.


The stakes are a lot higher for them, it's part of their country that they want back in the fold.

Imagine the losing side of a civil war 60 years ago took over Texas and seceded.
And imagine now that the Chinese were arming Texas.

How far would we go?

straight up, i wouldnt like it. You dont honestly think china would suceed in attempting to nuke the US do you. They may suceed in an attempt. But im sure we would have all there facilitys destroyed before they could get a nuke off the ground. we would then proceed in makeing china pay by wipeing off a billion ppl from this planet. We should just do away with nuclear weaponary. No one wins anyway.

let's just put it this way: china today will go all the way to the end if that is what's needed to bring Taiwan back.

In a nuclear war scenario, the US is going down with china all together; the US don't even know where those hidden chinese nuclear facilities are.

and don't be too sure about the US east coat too, if some terriorism organization is capable of causing so much fear, let's just say that the chinese can do much much more.

In a outbreak of a major nuke, war, any country is willing to do whatever it can to destroy the other country. Bioweapon, radio active weapon, chemical weapon, secret assasination, you name them.

and what about the chinese Nuke sub carrying ICBMs with hydrogen bomb warheads, they'll probable nuke washinton with that.

the world economy will fall too, with the whole world suffering
when ppl suffer, they'll do all sorts of crazy things. Possibly another world war.
the 2 previous world wars all started with small events, and gradually expended into a world scale war.

That's excatly why Taiwan today is still offically recognized as part of china, because the stake of declaring Taiwan as an independent nation at the moment is just too high.
No major country today is willing to risk that.

One predicter even predict that the taiwan crises being the break point of a major Sino-american war, and eventually lead to the WW3, and the destruction of human society.

On the other hand, because of the pact the US had with Taiwan, it has cause the chinese authorities to not act aggressively too, to avoid any possible conflict with the US. Both the US and china now is trying to avoid disscussions that might change the Taiwan's current situation and wanted to let Taiwan stay where it is today : a status quo where it's neither an independ nation nor formally part of the PRC.
and hope that the Taiwanese people will eventually come up with the correct solutions themselves that satisfy the mainland chinese people as well.

PS. the US's nukes are also only capable of reaching the eastern part of china unless it launches its nukes from another nation or through its nuclear submarine. in that case, the war will expend to a world scale. Eventhough the eastern part of china weigh more to china than the western part of the US weigh to the US, still the entire country will go down, and probably with the rest of the world going down along with. Such nuclear war will start a world war.

[edit on 12/15/2006 by warset]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
West Coast nuked? You must be joking, are YOU prepared to loose your ENTIRE country because of Taiwan?

The United states is no longer in a position to defend Taiwan had China decided to take it by force. That being said i am not sure how serious China ever was about trying to take it by force considering that the majority of Taiwanese are not even in favour of 'independence' ( how independent can you be right off the coast of China?) and after they saw what happened , or shall we say did not happen, after the take over of Hong Kong there is even less support for this relatively pointless politicians topic.

I feel the urge to tell you that the nuclear option is heavily in our favor.

China has admitted to just about enough ICBMs to make the scale of a American attack rather irrelevant considering the damage they will suffer in return. The larger the counter force directed at China the more dominant Russia's strategic position becomes so it makes very little sense for China to attack first or for the USA to direct it's retribution at a nation who would never attempt such a first strike without Russia willing to defend it against a overwhelming response. The fact that Russia has almost every advantage when it comes to a nuclear war scenario, against NATO or the USA, explains to me at least in part why China can so openly undermine the American economy.

Stellar

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Centros
But how much will American pay for the war? 1m people killed? Or the west coast hit by nuke?

West Coast nuked? You must be joking, are YOU prepared to loose your ENTIRE country because of Taiwan? I feel the urge to tell you that the nuclear option is heavily in our favor.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

You misunderstood our will. What I mean is China is going to defend Taiwan at the cost of ENTIRE human being because Taiwan is ours, no Chinese can abide the separation of Taiwan. When China disappear from the world, no one can escape.

US DOD says Chinese has only more than 20 missiles can reach America. Totally bull#! What are the people doing? Produce ONE missile ONE year?

When Chinese nukes are hit, the dust has covered the whole world because Chinese nukes are located far deep below the surface and the holes along 2000-mile mountains. So let's continue our war in the hell!

China won't campaign against US without possibility! China will not attack Taiwan before we have dominant strength. Can you imagine what China will be in 20 years???
Think about the flabby appearance of China 20 years ago and today's power and influence.

I wish the war would never happen. But the war against Taiwan will certainly happen on day. That is the tail of Chinese 60-year-ago civil war.




[edit on 19-12-2006 by Centros]

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by Centros
I believe one day there will be a war between China & US if american want to save Taiwan. BTW, I'm a native Chinese.
My country will fight for Taiwan even US force comes.

I'd to admit the fact, we are behind US in multiple areas. But how much will American pay for the war? 1m people killed? Or the west coast hit by nuke? Chinese traditional strategy is to play hide-and-seek, show when you can't, hide when you can, show your fear when you don't afraid, show your courage when you weak. Chinese nuke can delete the earth but the government hide them. And China will use everything to keep the union of the country. We will protect our country because this is our country, Taiwan is a part of it since thousands of years ago. But what Taiwan means to US?

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Centros]

UH OH. Somebody was caught drinking the commie juice! First off. I beleive your nuculear facilitys would be destroyed before you could get the first shot off. Would china be willing to commit suicide all for a little country? As far as america not backing taiwan, who is sailing weapons systems to taiwan? Who has a pact to protect taiwan in case of an attack by china? That mean Ole US of A.

Ahhh the last line of defense for the defenselss.. Chinese generals talking about nuking the US mainland if we do intervene in such an attack on taiwan.

Well the world population will be a billion ppl smaller.

[edit on 033131p://444 by semperfoo]

I suppose 1.8bn smaller!(China 1.4bn+US 0.3bn + 0.1bn Japanimals----you know who is). I need to accentuate one point I hate the communist & Max, I damn Max and his ancestors every day every moment!!! I'm Chinese! Just always support my country just like most of you!

[edit on 19-12-2006 by Centros]

[edit on 19-12-2006 by Centros]

Originally posted by Centros

US DOD says Chinese has only more than 20 missiles can reach America. Totally bull#! What are the people doing? Produce ONE missile ONE year?
[edit on 19-12-2006 by Centros]

Possibly..
Do you know how expensive it is to build 'one' of those missiles?
If you have a better estimate of the Chinese ICBM forces, please do share..

30 DF-5A missiles

Range - 12,000km-14,000km

It was formerly hidden inside caves inside the PRC but now are located inside one the of three PLA Ballistic missile complexs. Some are silo based and some are stored inside the tunnels ready to be launched, preparation time is around two hours for the older DF-5 missiles but the newer DF-5A might be shortened by the use of a new booaster fuel which might have also increase reliabilty. It has also been seen on mible platforms after being spilt into its seperate stages which might have been abandoned since the purpose built mobile DF-31 enter service


15-30 DF-31/A

Range - 8,000km~10,000km (depending on version)

The DF-31 was first seen in 1999 at the parade marking the 50th anniversary of the PRC. Since then there have been a number of these systems entering service, the numbers range from 15-30 systems and considering their production rate, there might be more to come. Extremely mobile and extremely if impossible to detect. These will form the backbone of chinas nuclear force and be include the longer ranged DF-31A version in its current arsenal

??? JL-2

Range - 8,000

The Submarine version of the DF-31, these are supposed to be based on the New Type-094 SSBN which have been rumoured to have entered service already. There have been claimed pictures of it, some of which are extremely clear but nothing is for certain. They might also be placed on the modifed Type-092 SSBN after its lastest update


To destroy chinas first ICBM complex, you would need a total of roughly 300 warheads to damage chinas first ICBM tunnel complex since it is hidden by a mountain as well as its length. There are at least 30,000 miles of underground silo bases, under three mountain ranges in china for the DF-5 and DF-5. This gives chinese forces enough time to re-fuel and lanuch

Mobile missiles are another story and are virtually impossible to destroy. A example of this was the iraqi SCUD lanuchers. The Americans had complete air superioty and special forces in iraq as well as drones and spy satellites yet they found it impossible to locate and destory iraqi SCUD lanuchers.

Now imagine the worlds third biggest country with one of the worlds most diverse landscapes full of mountains and man-made tunnels. Try finding a ICBM lanucher in the interior of china espically tibet and Chengdu with all those moutains. China does have enough missiles to do justice in a nuclear exchange with America whilst America will do more than enough justice to china. But America also has the Russians to worry about and wont use all its nuclear weapons on china. Chinas nuclear force is enough to make a deterrant against the Americans and thus cause a parity between the two countries

Like other known mountain ranges housing underground tunnel networks for China's strategic missiles, the Tai-Hei Mountain Range has many steep cliffs and canyons with large big elevation changes over a short distance between 1,000 and 2,000 meters. So yo u can easily dig tunnel networks with over one kilometer thick earth-cover in mountain ranges.

A typical 500-kiloton nuclear warhead in U.S. or Russian arsenals can `dig' a big hole 70m deep and 300m wide on the ground, and that is more than enough to destroy a missile silo or even an airport. If specially hardened for the earth-penetration purpos e, it may create a huge crater sphere 200 meters in diameter underground. Taken into account of the rupture zone around the crater and the likely penetration depth of warheads, at least three 500-kiloton warheads will have to land on the same spot sequen tially in order to penetrate the 1-kilometer thick earth cover and destroy the tunnel underneath. Even with the monster 20-megeton warhead on Russia's single-warhead SS-18, at least two warheads have to land on the same spot.

Moreover, one would destroy less than 300 meters of a tunnel using three warheads. Assuming the underground tunnel network under the Tai-Hei Mountain Range is only 1,000 kilometer long, one would need to use 10,000 (ten thousand) 500-kiloton warheads in order to make sure the tunnel network is completely destroyed. This is the VERY unlikely case in which you know the exact layout of the entire tunnel network. AND this is just one of several missile sites in China.
Kimsoft.com

Originally posted by Daedalus3


Possibly..
Do you know how expensive it is to build 'one' of those missiles?
If you have a better estimate of the Chinese ICBM forces, please do share..

I know one guy who work for a nuke research center of PLA, it's said one ICBM costs less than 100m RMB(about 12m US$). He told me an old news that the expense of the center in 2003 was more than 3.5bn RMB. And China has several nuke research centers. Where their money goes?
In fact these research centers do not built actual nukes, just design and test nukes and other weapons. Do you think China will spare money not to build so expensive missiles?


[edit on 20-12-2006 by Centros]

Originally posted by Centros
I know one guy who work for a nuke research center of PLA..

wow.. you must definitely be outside the mainland then...
you're sharing interesting info!

Compare your figures to a development cost of about 400million USD for each peacekeeper missile and flyaway cost of ~50 million USD per peacekeeper.

If what you say is true, boy those chinese missiles are cheap!!

And I had an estimate of around 30~50 ICBMs anyways..

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Centros
But how much will American pay for the war? 1m people killed? Or the west coast hit by nuke?

West Coast nuked? You must be joking, are YOU prepared to loose your ENTIRE country because of Taiwan? I feel the urge to tell you that the nuclear option is heavily in our favor.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

Yes, actually. Should a war against Taiwan ever occur, China is prepared to go all the way to the world's end. That is the general feeling not only amongst the Chinese generals but also amongst the general populace. I know it sounds ridiculous to you, but the value of pride is something that's different with the eastern cultures. And no, if a war against Taiwan should occur, the nuclear option will NOT be heavily in your favor. China would've built up the nuclear arsenal long before any military move against Taiwan occurs. Anyway, I suspect a retaliatory strike against Japan would occur before one against the U.S. and hopefully by then, both China and the U.S. should realize the lunacy of nuclear warfare.

Originally posted by dingyibvs
Yes, actually. Should a war against Taiwan ever occur, China is prepared to go all the way to the world's end. That is the general feeling not only amongst the Chinese generals but also amongst the general populace. I know it sounds ridiculous to you, but the value of pride is something that's different with the eastern cultures. And no, if a war against Taiwan should occur, the nuclear option will NOT be heavily in your favor. China would've built up the nuclear arsenal long before any military move against Taiwan occurs. Anyway, I suspect a retaliatory strike against Japan would occur before one against the U.S. and hopefully by then, both China and the U.S. should realize the lunacy of nuclear warfare.

Bottom line is, the Taiwanese themselves should decide; you can't force people into submission against their free will. In the end, nothing can be gained for all parties.

Paranoid Duck

Am I the only one that thinks it is very possible that China has MANY times more nuclear weapons that what they say / admit and or openly display? What if US inteligence grossly underestimates the numbers of China's Nuclear ICBMs?? US inteligence is not infallible by a long shot. It seems unlikely to me that the US navy knew that sub was there or they would have "put it in check" before it got within fireing range.

its also possible that the DOD is inflating the threat to justify its bloated "defense" budget! More over a war between the US and Sino over Taiwan is silly on the business side of things, sino loses its biggest trade partner and that would mean Walmart cant fund the PLA anymore!

Deisel subs are like smart minefields. They say that trying to hear a diesel sub running silent with passive sonar, is like opening the hood to your car and listening to the battery.

That being said. . .

Diesel subs don't have the speed to shadow a carrier going 30 knots--the Chinese nuke boats can probably do 30, but very noisy.
In comparison, waiting for a carrier you know is leaving port is easy. Then the sub just surfaces and says gotcha!

In war the US would be pounding the water with so much active sonar that it would deafen every marine mammal from Taiwan to California. The whole area around the Carrier Group would be sensory overload with electronic jamming. You just can't do those things to such an extent in peace time. It sort of reveals all your tactics.

What is significant here is that the Chinese are making it clear that they will have a very real submarine force in place and won't be intimidated should the US try to dictate policies with their naval presence.

Originally posted by DoBravery


In war the US would be pounding the water with so much active sonar that it would deafen every marine mammal from Taiwan to California. The whole area around the Carrier Group would be sensory overload with electronic jamming. You just can't do those things to such an extent in peace time. It sort of reveals all your tactics.

OK.......!!!! If you say so.!!

By the way...have you ever been on or around a carrier when they are launching and recovering aircraft...the very epitome of deadly silence. You can hear a thousand pins dropping. How about when the water brake on the end of the catapult slams and brakes?? Very quiet. Or when they hit the firing valve and let all that steam pour down the catapult. How about in a carrier battle group when they are raising or lowering aircraft on the elevators.....very very quiet. When the arresting gear engines are in operation?? shhh....quiet.!!!! I wanna hear these pins dropping!!!

How do you detect with sonar ..when all this quiet is going on around you??
No matter how much you pound. Think very carefully about this.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
OK.......!!!! If you say so.!!

By the way...have you ever been on or around a carrier when they are launching and recovering aircraft...the very epitome of deadly silence. You can hear a thousand pins dropping. How about when the water brake on the end of the catapult slams and brakes?? Very quiet. Or when they hit the firing valve and let all that steam pour down the catapult. How about in a carrier battle group when they are raising or lowering aircraft on the elevators.....very very quiet. When the arresting gear engines are in operation?? shhh....quiet.!!!! I wanna hear these pins dropping!!!

How do you detect with sonar ..when all this quiet is going on around you??
No matter how much you pound. Think very carefully about this.
Orangetom

My bad. . . I explained my point too vaguely.

I did not mean to suggest that the US Navy could mask the noise of a carrier with active sonar.

My point was that the US would not try stealthly move a carrier group near China. I think modern sensors sort of defeat that.
Instead the US tactic would be. Somewhere in this given block of water is our Carrier.
We will not let you see into this block with your radar. (Intense jamming)
We will not let your subs get close. (Active sonar)
If you fly into the block you will be shot down without warning.

The Chinese would know roughly where the carrier group is with all the electric and sonar noise. Approaching close enough to see into the cloud would be a different story.

Being quiet doesn't hide you from active sonar. If a sub is detected by active sonar it has to try to run under a thermal layer or kill the detector.
Diesel subs don't run well.