US votes rigged as hell, no democracy here!!!

I think our little buddy (Freemason) is backlashing and insulting other people...therefore i might well as call him an asshole. The state our economy is NOT DUE to the clinton admin. Im sorry i dont care about a mans personel life just as long as he is a good president..does his job right..and thats exactly what Clinton did for America. The Economy is due to Bush ..and his republican buddies..that just like his fuking father he only worries about war and the military..and he is too CONSERVATIVE to be president. Im tired of all these conservative people in office..times are changing we need a whole new office.
Clinton was a smart man (well at least smarter than BUSH) he was a good speaker...And our foreign policy was good until BUsh came into office. Clinton was the kind of guy i wont mind representing me and my country...Bush on ther other hand is a disgrace to the american people.

Many people did not HATE us as much as they do now when Clinton was in office. This war not due to OIL...or Phony Terrorism. Come on people our foriegn policy sucks..if i lived in a thrid world country and saw what the american govt was doing..i would be pretty pissed off too. Ironically, many people dont realize this...and the reason is many poeple in the US do not travel..they have not seen how it is in other parts of the world..they do not know how it is in a third world country..and this is not something you can just read about and know..you have to actually experience it.

So yes Bush SUcks ass..and i wish someone would just throw his drunk ass out of office
HEH
OrionSirius

It amazes me that a recession that started technically before Bush took office is being blamed on him? I don't get that. The GOP predicted Clinton's tax increase (the largest ever) would cause a recession.

Bout Time - McCain is the only Democrat I like.

b.s. conspiracy aside: I think we're all forgetting that the GOP is in control on the congress/WH because it was the will of the people through a vote. Again - it's the will of the people. I am not saying all dems are useless though they need leadership. I grew up around the democratic party - believe it or not. Many members of my family were elected to office as democrats. The party has changed, big time I think, since then. Nobody likes Daschle or Hillary. Tom is being seen for what he really is, an obstructionist. I doubt he'll be re-elected. Hillary is of course a major carpetbagger.

The recession started two years before Bush took office.Clinton was a good speaker,but not much of a President.He would make a helluva used car salesmen though.

And what are we supposed to with third world countries,give them a hug a coddle them?The U.S. gives out plenty of money how much more are we supposed to do?

No, as I've explained a 1000 times, it seems, the recession started in Mrch of 2001. You folks throw around terms and labels and then do nothing but salute the false definition ( third variance in Webster's definitions of 'Fascist' I believe )
Look, the ecomomy is a scalable, trackable, mathematical market paradigm. Like any formula driven math, there are cycles, with starts-middles-ends. The recession started in March of 2001. Period, end of story. What the spin applied to it in order to shift blame from Bush is acknowledging, is that the economy had hit a plateau and was starting it's decent under the last year of Clinton & first year of Bush. SLow down after HISTORIC GROWTH DOES NOT EQUAL A RECESSION. A recession is a decline in economic TRADE and PROSPERITY shorter than a depression.
It gets floated under the old Fascist axiom:" Repeat the lie enough & they'll think it true"
Same as Gore inventing the Internet; he never said that he did. He did say, rightfully so, that as a member of Congress he co-authored the legislation which brought the communications network now known as the Web, over to the public domain from it's birthplace as a government/research lab exclusive entity.


Sure sign the American Economy is in BIG trouble: Mcdonald's Is Laying off & closing Locations!

money.iwon.com.../alias/money/cm/nw

Sure sign the American Economy is in BIG trouble #2: Top SEC Cop, hired to bring confidence back to the market, fired auditing firm at his company because they caught the books being cooked!

www.nytimes.com...

[Edited on 8-11-2002 by Bout Time]

It�s also worth mentioning that some of the democrats that did well this past Tuesday campaigned on fundamental conservative issue like guns and small government.

OK, BT - so, the recession started March of 2001 - GWB was sworn in Jan 21 of 2001. What exactly did Bush do in that short amount of time that could have hurt the economy THAT bad? A recession doesn't happen over night. It was on the decline up to that point as a result of Clinton's failed policies.

After this past Tuesday - If this were sports - in the words of Jim Rome, Bout time: SCOREBOARD!

It figures you'd like Rome, that little weasel. Who was the QB who kicked his butt on air?

All the Republicans who did well ran as Democrats, so it all works out! More proof positive that the country is firmly moderate. I can't believe anyone in the South would vote for any candidate who would want to take their hunting gun away. People think that NY is nothing but NYC. Right! We're more 'hick red neck' in parts of this state than anyone living in the trailer park next to Thomas!

Yes, I know when Bush was sworn in. It's not a question so much of giving birth to the recession, but doing nothing to stop it and hastening it on for ulterior motives, specifically the tax cut. Historically, the economy goes into stasis during a presidential election year voting period. Why? Logically, the people with speculative call in Corporate America are going to see who the winner is and which fiscal platform is going to be applied. The president's office does not make legislation. It does not drop interest rates like the FRB. But it does have the bully pulpit and the country does listen. All of the Bush rhetoric during the campaign, and after inauguration centered on the key theme of recession. A recession would be all that was needed for his tax cut as stimulus plan switcheroo. You do remember all the speeches about hitting the Trifecta that Bush made, don't you?
Not getting into the label tutorial again, the recession started then, but the degrees it progressed to in 2002 where not nearly as severe in 3/01. The fault is in the Bush administration looking to surf it out instead of applying stop gap measures to curtail it, in other words, they could have sealed the finger hole in the dyke early instead of it turning into a gusher. Intentional or incompetent, his was a negative effect regardless, just like ignoring the Israel/Palestinian conflict for 18 months.
Failed policies of Clinton? Where? And where's the proof? You have an economy that did in his 1 1/2 terms what the previous 3 terms of GOP stewardship couldn't do: raised the standard of living, took more people off of welfare, closed the gap between the haves & have nots with more Americans rising above the poverty line, and grew the economy to it's historic highs. To not think something is going to come down from a pinnacle is to not understand the physics of economics. Prosperity in the 90s was the result of technological innovation, productivity and globalization; and not Reganomics. The costs of speculation and the limits of global expansion, previously ignored, are now playing into the formula. Don't look for that chapter of history to repeat itself anytime soon.
The economy IS the real issue, and the rest are fireworks to keep people looking at the sky and not to the ground. The problem with fireworks is that attention span is only so long... and in order to keep attention you need to keep making bigger and brighter blasts. This administration is dealing with urgencies instead of priorities, urgencies mostly of its own making. This is very poor management and stewardship. The game here is to keep us engaged until the next wave hits. Hopefully by then we have not been made ragged.

so you're saying you're a 'hick redneck?'



[Edited on 8-11-2002 by Bob88]

I'll have you know there are no trailer parks near my house. Those darned things are tornado magnets! Stay away from them!

Originally posted by Bout Time
a tax cut to the wealthiest 2% only stimulates their portfolio, not the economy

I've never heard such ignorant people before, THIS is why the economy sucks, because people like you think every penny a business owner makes, should be given to the poor bum working at the laundromat.

I USED to think that way myself, I used to be a CPUSA member (for those of you ignorant enough in politics, and many of you are, that's the Communist Part of USA)

However after debating endlessly why I am right, with people who actually make economics and business their lives...I realized what they REALLY were saying.

It's not a question of who has the money but YES how well the economy is doing...the economy only does well when there is a LOT of reinvestment in the economy BY the government, which means tax cuts and incintives for BUSINESS OWNERS and INVESTORS.....you all live in a socialist dream world. But as I've seen in previous posts...many Socialist nations such as Germany HAVE NO GROWTH!

We are the most prosperous nation on earth, we MUST grow...now I'm sick of hearing these Clinton Lovers...and I think Bush is an idiot...but I'd take a Non-Partisan any day over anyone as long as he is moral, and a Republican over any Democrat, if there is no NP running.

The fact is the DEMOCRATS live in a dream world, and don't realize how disasterous they are to the economy, they make life easier for the working man, and when the Republicans take office after them and the economy starts to go to hell, THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE FIRST TO POINT THE FINGER....even though it is THEIR fault, and anyone, especially you Bout Time who'd say it's NOT Clinton's fault this round, should review HOW we had 0 deficite.

Don't you know the US Budget is available on line? Maybe you should read it for once.

Sincerely,
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LOL ORIONSIRUS!!!!!!

If it wouldn't help US for Saddam or Ossama Bin Laden to admit who they REALLY hate...they'd tell you it is ALL Clinton's fault.

Need we discuss the Pharmecudical plant he purposely targeted? The reinstating of routine bombings of Iraq, which if you don't know...the Arab nations have a loose coalition much like the Confederate States of America did, and bombing the second most influential "States" of this coalition is NOT a very popular move.

Because of Clinton we pulled out our UN inspectors "for reasons of danger" and refused to send them back in after complaining that we couldn't inspect, and after Saddam said "fine you can come back"

I'm sorry but I've seen Saddams soldiers....there are two basic units "suicide units" and "regulars"

The suicide units just have bombs strapped to them "yes that's a real threat" *rolls eyes*
and the regulars have NO! regular miltiary left....Saddam has at most 40 long ranged missles that can reach only to Israel at most (and of course Israel IS the real reason they all hate us)

Saddam has enough for ONE punch, we aren't even sure he's got that much....and Clinton has done a wonderful job of bombing such a nation.

Just because the LIBERAL media doesn't post every little missle that blows something up, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There have been DAILY bombings in Iraq since 1998....mostly over the no-fly zones.

We have decimated the nation well during the clinton administration, so don't be blaming all this on the Bushs...

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by FreeMason
I think Bush is an idiot...but I'd take a Non-Partisan any day over anyone as long as he is moral

I knew there was something that I remembered liking about you, thanks for spelling it out for me!
My undergraduate is in Computer Science, and while I did not finish ( maybe someday) I did attend The Wharton Business School. I've owned my own practice since 1993, with a client base and service targeted to the Fortune 1000 ( IT Engagements)
So please don't confuse my critique of poor apllication of fiscal management with socialist sympathies...how did you get THERE ANYWAY!?!?!
On economic stimulus: I see these companies daily, I sell to these companies daily, I get my expense account raped regularly by members of these companies. I know what the business climate was in 1990, under Bush I, how it was dramatically improved under Clinton 4 years later, and I see how it's been in the last 18 months: we're at the valley of this roller coaster for sure!
I am not a Democrat or Republican. I do favor the Dem point of aid to the economy though: a targeted tax cut to households making uner $150K, extending unemployment insurance coverage, and collection of taxes from corporations who were previously registerd in the US -took an out of country registry-yet continue the same business in the US.
I'm all for incentives for business owners, but right now the way it's happening under Bush, is that it's targeted to large Corporations as corporate welfare and most importantly, it's not given with conditions. I think it's extremely immoral and unjust for the Federal gov. to lay millions on a corporation and for that corporation to turn around and lay off thousands of workers.I also don't like this wave of Union busting. It's wrong. A union is a working partner to the companies well being.
Republican fiscal policy, when it goes hardcore into 'trickle down' mode like it's in now, is utterly horrible. It follows the same 'death spiral' fault as Communism: the theory only works if those at the Top aren't greedy.
The Gov. pumping money into the economy devalues the dollar and causes inflation. The economy is best served when everyone has discretionary income; THAT gets invested, homes are built, cars are purchased, trips are taken, etc.
A feeling of health in the economy makes everybody spend.

[Edited on 8-11-2002 by Bout Time]

Well wait a second? This tax cut imposed by Bush's administration was fair in my eyes...I who don't even work at the moment managed to get 400 bucks back from it...and I am under the 150k mark, in fact, last year I probably made only 3 or 4k bucks....So I don't see where people get this idea that this tax cut helps only the 2% anyways...

Need we be reminded that it is the what...top 5% that pays about 60% of the taxes?

Sincerely,
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As for the Socialist thing, that of course is a generalization...a lot attack Bush because they are socialistic. They don't see we are already fairly socialistic.

As for corrupt business owners...one should look to see that they DID become so corrupt during the Clinton administration

Besides Clinton IS charged with more than his "sex scandal" and his bad economic handlings...heh...for all those conspiracy theorists.

And I'll give Clinton this though.....He didn't rule out of fear.

As a friend said to me...Bush is governing out of Fear, fear of attack and such. Clinton was actually popular, out of reasons of doing stuff for the working man and such.

But the democrats fell from the light after JFK, the best stimulus to the economy was going to the moon...my god what Bush should have done was tell the American people "We will not be dragged into a 100 years war against religions fanatics, we shall focus our national interests on programs that no human can deny as being a just and riteous cause...WE CHOOSE TO GO TO MARS!!! blah blah" now that would have been a boost to the economy

But alas, that position is waiting for me....

Sincerely,
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*Standing Ovation*

Wow, B-T, is this really you? Gosh darn, I can't believe it!!

Now that you've stated some particulars that can be discussed, let me ask some questions.

What is the democrats' idea of a tax cut; I never even heard them do anything but scream for no cuts and actually want to raise them. Who proposed the idea?

You're darned right the union works on behalf of the corp. Last year Sikoprsky got an additional 112 million dollars because of the Teamsters lobbying for the building of a few more Blackhawks. I think they're going to be needed, too.

The trickle-down Reagan economic policy created more jobs and, while taxes were cut across the board, revenue went way up because of the increased tax base. Why is it you don't think it'll happen that way again? The shame of it is, again as back then, the benefits will be blown on rebuilding a neutered military and a stupid war (Reagan's was the Cold War, but it took trillions to win even though it was allegedly "cold")

Originally posted by Bob88
so you're saying you're a 'hick redneck?'

[Edited on 8-11-2002 by Bob88]

No, but I live amongst them sometimes! I'll explain: my primary residence is 80 mile out of NYC in the Catskills Mt. area of NY. I have 8 acres with a cattle farm to the left, a corn field to the right, and a state conservation area behind me. I have an apartment on the Hudson in NJ, about a five minute ferry ride to Wall St. No Donald Trump digs, just a studio apt. for when needed.
I have broadband at my home office & work from there as much as possible. The only thing I have not seen yet on my property is a bear, everything else is near daily: deer, pheasent, turkey, a coyote once, and two 30 lb turtles that migrate between the two ponds on my property. the biggest thing was getting used to how slowed down people are, and in some areas, the hick red necks I talked about.

That's a cattle ranch, city boy. And, redneck is one word!

Heh city boy, man Reno is the second best place on earth to live, aside from Alaska....you should see the storm we have here....if it's snowing in the mountains like it's raining down here in the valley, we will soon have a glacier

And man I went into the mountains yesterday, as the clouds were blowing through it....and it was seriously powerful enough winds to blow our car off the edge of the cliffs if we weren't careful, and man the snow, was blowing every direction sideways and hit like ice, forming dunes of ice on the streets, and peices of the trees were blowing off...I love nature when it gives a challenge....

You know, there's nothing better then being in a forest on a mountain IN a cloud while it's snowing....everything is lit up, but from where?

I think cities take all that away from people...making them dull and ignorant of what life is REALLY about

Sincerely,
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Hey!?! Are you in Reno?

Ever heard of Sierra Army Depot?

And, guess who's drinking a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale as we type?

Yes I've heard of it, and if I'm right that's near or IS hurlong right? I went there for the 3 years I was in JROTC, only had 3 years of HS....last time I was there though there was only one person stationed at the base...a colonel I believe, black man...good dude, funny, whitty and a good motivator

Sincerely,
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