US vetos Israeli UN condemnation of Gaza air strikes!

Originally posted by deadbang

Originally posted by Jamuhn

If people in your neighborhood are killing police offers, should you suffer the same fate as them?

Tell me please, why do you think that Israeli lives are more precious than innocent civilians in Palestine?

[edit on 12-11-2006 by Jamuhn]

Jamuhn, Those were really ignorant comments to make...and I love the way you and others ALWAYS automatically assume that since I and others don't agree with you...well then I must love killing babies...idiot!

First off, people in MY neighborhood don't shoot at cops...when you shoot at cops you know what happens...they call their buddies and then they come kick your ass...if those same cops that you and yours are shooting at happen to have access to superior weapons..it could be that some other people are gonna get hurt...but you know what...at the end of the day...IT"S YOUR FAULT FOR SHOOTING AT THE COPS!!!

Second...Where in my paragraphs did I say that Israeli lives were more important than Palestinians lives...dont put words in my mouth. All lives are sacred...maybe if the "freedom fighters" would come out from behind their women and children...the casulty rate for civilians in Palestine would go down...

Do you know the history of why palestinians are fighting them? Do you understand the decades of oppressive illegal occupation of their roads, lands, bridges, ect..? Thousands of civilians dead for illegal occupation. That is the point here... ILLEGAL OCCUPATION! The UN ruled in 1974 (??yr) Yet Israel has yet to comply with them for three decades.

All you hear is the pro-israeli side, which is our media outlets, so tell me how you found your position. I would like to discuss this with you if you have time...

AAC

Originally posted by Strangerous

No-one has said that it's OK to launch rockets at anyone - did you imagine that or think we wouldn't notice?

Anti-Israel coalitition? Would that be the people who know brutality when they see it and refuse to be blinded by the biased aplogist media that some people suck up unquestioningly?

You may not have said it but you are seeking to infer that those of us who critcise Israel and its policies are in some way anti-semitic/jew-haters - that's just pathetic and shows you haven't bothered to actually read any of the posts - the red mist clouding your abilities?

I think we do know who we are! Do you?

Yes Someone has said it's ok...
Stumason - "And yes, olive groves. Those home made bottle rockets that the Palestinians chuck at you every now and then. When was the last time anyone was killed?"...sounds like approval to me!

No, I am not implying you are a Jew hater...freudian slip on your part maybe...what I did say was Anti-Israel..one denotes dislike of people...the other a govt.

And, Yes, I do know who you are...your part of the appeasement crowd...give'em everything they want, maybe they will just go away!!!..yeah right

Deadbang
you made a comment about Palestinians knowing how to handle the media. Well its about time they caught up to Israel in its well managed media handling over the past 60 years. The reason why everything was so skewed was only because the Israelis had control of it over the past 60 years. With the help of the Internet they were finally able to sneak messages past their jailers. Before that Israeli controlled all the borders, handed out all the media passes and had all the limelight in their direction, even final say in what was to be printed. Even now with the Internet, Israel has some very very savvy SEO people working on particular keywords to insure their versions of the stories come up on web searches before any other versions.They even were smart enough to buy out domain names that you would think would be Palestinian just for the purpose of misinformation. They are truly great manipulators of history as well as media. So far it seems the Palestinians are learning al little from their Occupiers about media and internet. Israel along with the US help, works very hard to stifle any arab media markets that may provide other views or pictures. Bravo to them if you are seeing it that they are learning to handle the media...thats a good thing... its about time. We never used to see Pals dying, it was always Israelis covered in blood at the chaotic scene of bombings. We see now the Pals bleed too.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Do you know the history of why palestinians are fighting them? Do you understand the decades of oppressive illegal occupation of their roads, lands, bridges, ect..? Thousands of civilians dead for illegal occupation. That is the point here... ILLEGAL OCCUPATION! The UN ruled in 1974 (??yr) Yet Israel has yet to comply with them for three decades.

AAC

Absolute, Yes I understand the history of Palestine, do you remember a fellow named Yassir Arafat?...he did not seem to mind the "oppression" and "occupation" that you speak of...hell he relished in it...
Same with Hamas, you REALLY think they care about Palestine?...what theycare about is a proxy war with Israel...what they care about is the elimination of Israel..and if a few Palestinians get in the way...

If Hamas, Syria, Laebnon et al, really cared about Palestine they would engage Israel in REAL negotiations for peace and not just stalling, re-arming time...

I'm afraid you are the one here who has been taken in by the media...

Originally posted by deadbang
I love the way you and others ALWAYS automatically assume that since I and others don't agree with you...well then I must love killing babies...idiot!

Show me where in my comments I said anything to that effect. You can't, because I didn't. So, settle down kid.

First off, people in MY neighborhood don't shoot at cops...when you shoot at cops you know what happens...they call their buddies and then they come kick your ass...

That's all well n good, but I'm talking about if you don't know who is killing cops and you don't know that they live in your neighborhood. Should you and your family suffer because of this? Essentially, you are saying that innocent Palestinians should die because others lob rockets into Israeli territory.

Second...Where in my paragraphs did I say that Israeli lives were more important than Palestinians lives

Once again, I never said anything to that effect. Stop jumping to conclusions and actually read what you are responding to.

All lives are sacred...maybe if the "freedom fighters" would come out from behind their women and children...the casulty rate for civilians in Palestine would go down...

So tell me, where were the freedom fighters in this incident? Hmmm? Were they hiding among these people? No, they weren't. Please read the background to the incident next time instead of automatically making assumptions.

[edit on 12-11-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Deadbang
you made a comment about Palestinians knowing how to handle the media. Well its about time they caught up to Israel in its well managed media handling over the past 60 years. The reason why everything was so skewed was only because the Israelis had control of it over the past 60 years. With the help of the Internet they were finally able to sneak messages past their jailers.

Pieman, are you serious?...So now Israel controls the internet and manipulates ALL media outlets...and the poor oppressed finally managed to sneak a note out in a bottle...LOL
Next you'll have Israel working hand in hand with aliens to oppress the WORLD!!!

I guess the question that keeps nagging me is...why doesn't the Arab, Islamic, Muslim world extend a hand to help their Palestinian brothers, instead of arming them for a fight they cannot win and they know it...does not seem to me they are really being helpful...akes me wonder what Hamas real agenda is?

Apologies...somehow got the quotes screwed up...I will endeavour to do better in the future...apologies.

[edit on 12-11-2006 by deadbang]

This "hiding behind civilian" stuff is also becoming so old and overused. It doesn't work anymore. If this was the case then it is also true of Israel to place or allow settlements to be built within reach of these weapons and they place the Military installations behind them. Lets see who the Palestinians shoot at if the Israelis place Military installations in any of the areas being hit now instead of sticking civilians in the path of these qassams. They sacrifice a couple of Israelis so they can go in and kill dozens if not hundreds of Palestinians. The fanatacism of some of them is just as bad as islamic fanatics...they are willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of Israel , they are well aware that their death or kidnapping will result in the deaths of many Palestinians in exchange. A smart person knows not to go into a bad neighborhood in the middle of the night unless he is looking for trouble.

Originally posted by deadbang

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Deadbang
you made a comment about Palestinians knowing how to handle the media. Well its about time they caught up to Israel in its well managed media handling over the past 60 years. The reason why everything was so skewed was only because the Israelis had control of it over the past 60 years. With the help of the Internet they were finally able to sneak messages past their jailers.

I guess the question that keeps nagging me is...why doesn't the Arab, Islamic, Muslim world extend a hand to help their Palestinian brothers, instead of arming them for a fight they cannot win and they know it...does not seem to me they are really being helpful...akes me wonder what Hamas real agenda is?

Well, you need to make a distinction here, not all Arab, Islamic, Muslim world is arming Palestine. Only a couple countries are. A lot of Arab countries are establishing diplomatic relations with Israel, many Muslim countries have had them for awhile (like Turkey and Egypt), so I don't think its fair to lump all Muslim countries together.

Two issues I see with countries still supporting the liberation of all Israeli lands, 1. they are still going through a phase of fervent nationalism (perhaps even to the point of a general Arab/Islamic one), 2. they think this cause is worth the sacrifice of the people that suffer because of it.

And ironically, these are two qualities that Israel has as well, but when it comes to them, you call it "resolve" and when it comes to Palestinians, you call it "insane" or futile.

[edit on 12-11-2006 by Jamuhn]

Jamuhn, First off, not a kid...43yrs old, father of 8, former U.S. military, CCIE ...any of thats ok...not a kid

And to continue in your line of thinking, when the people shooting at the cops have already made up their mind that the civilians living around the corner don't matter except for media fodder...so who is the greater evil...the guy knowly shooting at the cops or the cops who accidently kill a civilian?

And to the last staement, been reading this just like you kid!...

Originally posted by deadbang
And to continue in your line of thinking, when the people shooting at the cops have already made up their mind that the civilians living around the corner don't matter except for media fodder...so who is the greater evil...the guy knowly shooting at the cops or the cops who accidently kill a civilian?

We are not talking about "a civilian." We are talking about the cops taking out half the block or more. To me, both would be evil, and both would have a clear disregard for human life. Both should be condemned for it, more than condemned, both should be punished for it. But, this doesn't happen, Israel uses disproportionate force, and they are not reprimanded for it. Only the Palestinians suffer, Israel doesn't even get harsh words for retaliating so grossly.

I see that maybe a few Israelis are opening up their minds and telling the truth about how things really are over there. I think this little OP/ED speaks volumes.

Just one more deception

By Zvi Bar'el

It's just a question of dosage. Had the members of the Atamna family and their neighbors been killed over the course of two or three days, and had a "most wanted man" been killed along with them, no one would have blinked. Was anyone upset when dozens of people were killed in the Gaza Strip before that artillery shell? Did anyone think it necessary to stop the random shooting? Did anyone apologize for those innocents who were killed cumulatively, one by one?

Because all that is needed is the right excuse, and everything is sorted out. "Anyone who hides terrorists near his home, or terrorists who operate near residences, should know the consequences," asserts the Israeli position, as though it were an advertisement for those slaughter films.

But in Gaza there is no place that isn't near residences, that is free of children and mothers, of unemployed people who fill the alleys and of young people without hope. Everyone sees everyone else, everyone helps everyone else to the best of his ability. Because there is no other way out.

Continued at the link:

Just One More Deception

Well AnAbsoluteCreation, I think you need to stop swallowing the BS about the Palestinians that are always being portrayed as the victims. Like Hezbollah they are an opressive group of people that wish to dominate other nations under Islamic law.
I don't believe Palestinians are innocent when they are always using terrorist tactics to make their 'point'. I haven't even seen them try a form of diplomacy in any serious manner.
So far all I have read is Anti-Israeli propaganda. My support will always be with Israel, because Israel has proven to stand for democracy. Israel does an excellent job of fighting terrorism which they stand up to every day. They are our ally in the war on terror.

Originally posted by laiguana
Well AnAbsoluteCreation, I think you need to stop swallowing the BS about the Palestinians that are always being portrayed as the victims. Like Hezbollah they are an opressive group of people that wish to dominate other nations under Islamic law.
I don't believe Palestinians are innocent when they are always using terrorist tactics to make their 'point'. I haven't even seen them try a form of diplomacy in any serious manner.
So far all I have read is Anti-Israeli propaganda. My support will always be with Israel, because Israel has proven to stand for democracy. Israel does an excellent job of fighting terrorism which they stand up to every day. They are our ally in the war on terror.

I must agree to disagree. Although you don't have to believe what I'm saying to make it the truth. That is what is frustrating, you THINK you know what you're talking about. There is a difference between Palatinians and Hezbolah... a big difference. Hezbolah was formed after the Isreali invasion of Lebenon in 1982.

This Israeli military offensive forced an estimated 285,000 people to become refugees, with over 6,000 homes destroyed or badly damaged. Between 1,100 and 2,000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Twenty Israeli soldiers died, and an unknown number of Palestinian fighters. The PLO forces retreated ahead of the Israelis and continued their attacks on Israel.

So this is how it stands. I'll put it in an understanding perspective... You have a farm with many acres. Suddenly a group of refugees start moving into your land and setting up their homes. You don't mind because it's all about peaceful living. Then they start having all their friends come, and start building giant buildings. Then they make one of your cities their capital. Then all of a sudden a few neighbors that you didn't like in the first place come and say that that land isn't your anymore it is the refugees. Now we're going to supply those poeple with money and support and propaganda so the world is blind to the situation at hand.

There is no such thing a mindless terrorist. They have either been affected by a releative dying by the hands of Isreal weapons, or the years of illegal occupation by Israel.

Where do you get your information other than FOX, CNN, etc..? Because they don't tell the truth. AAC

Originally posted by laiguana
Well AnAbsoluteCreation, I think you need to stop swallowing the BS about the Palestinians that are always being portrayed as the victims. Like Hezbollah they are an opressive group of people that wish to dominate other nations under Islamic law.
I don't believe Palestinians are innocent when they are always using terrorist tactics to make their 'point'. I haven't even seen them try a form of diplomacy in any serious manner.
So far all I have read is Anti-Israeli propaganda. My support will always be with Israel, because Israel has proven to stand for democracy. Israel does an excellent job of fighting terrorism which they stand up to every day. They are our ally in the war on terror.

I could not put it better than absolutecreation , this is not about anti israeli propaganda, it's about how things are, the reality of how things evolve.
All i've seen from you so far is calling people anti semitic anti bla bla bla, with nothing to cover it.
How about I come on your land and say , move out bob were building something here, you refuse to go so I haras you a little bit, I call some people with big guns, I kill some people then you get upset and the only alternative way to respond back is for you to fight back, since Im not willing to leave.
Since I have the big guns , planes, tanks ,you only can fight in a way that would be dificult for me, guerila style.

You should really study what is going down there before you make comments that have no cover at all.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I would like to post this article that I just read on Haaretz online news. I trust this newspaper for its honesty and balance of reporting in the Middle East. They have reporters from both sides of the fence as well as some Israeli arab reporters. This article mirrors the feelings of many in regards to the recent actions in Palestine and can be applied to others in the past. I hope you read this and understand where a lot of us come from that denounce these acts.

No one is guilty in Israel

By Gideon Levy

Nineteen inhabitants of Beit Hanun were killed with malice aforethought. There is no other way of describing the circumstances of their killing. Someone who throws burning matches into a forest can't claim he didn't mean to set it on fire, and anyone who bombards residential neighborhoods with artillery can't claim he didn't mean to kill innocent inhabitants.

Therefore it takes considerable gall and cynicism to dare to claim that the Israel Defense Forces did not intend to kill inhabitants of Beit Hanun. Even if there was a glitch in the balancing of the aiming mechanism or in a component of the radar, a mistake in the input of the data or a human error, the overwhelming, crucial, shocking fact is that the IDF bombards helpless civilians. Even shells that are supposedly aimed 200 meters from houses, into "open areas," are intended to kill, and they do kill. In this respect, nothing new happened on Wednesday morning in Gaza: The IDF has been behaving like this for months now.

But this isn't just a matter of "the IDF," "the government" or "Israel" bearing the responsibility. It must be said explicitly: The blame rests directly on people who hold official positions, flesh-and-blood human beings, and they must pay the price of their criminal responsibility for needless killing. Attorney Avigdor Klagsbald caused the death of a woman and her child without anyone imagining that he intended to hit them, but nevertheless he is sitting in prison. And what about the killers of women and children in Beit Hanun? Will they all be absolved? Will no one be tried? Will no one even be reprimanded and shunned?


GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant will say with exasperating coolness that apparently there was "a problem with the battery's targeting apparatus," without moving a facial muscle, and will that be enough? Deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh will say, "The IDF is militarily responsible, but not morally responsible," and will he thus exculpate himself?

And who will bear the responsibility for the renewal of the terror attacks? Only Hamas? Who will be accused of the tumble in Israel's status and its depiction as a violent, leper state, and who will be judged for the danger that hovers over world Jewry in the wake of the IDF's acts? The electronic component that went on the blink in the radar?

No one is guilty in Israel. There is never anyone guilty in Israel. The prime minister who is responsible for the brutal policy toward the Palestinians, the defense minister who knew about and approved the bombardments, the chief of staff, the chief of command and the commander of the division who gave the orders to bombard - not one of them is guilty. They will continue with the work of killing as though nothing has happened: The sun shone, the system flourished and the ritual slaughterer slaughtered. They will continue to pursue the routine of their daily lives, accepted in society like anyone else, and remain in their posts despite the blood on their hands.

Source


As usual if you have the time. Read the talkbacks underneath the article. You will not be surprised to see the responses. Many of them basically calling him a traitor just for his honesty and candidness.


Pie

very balanced, lmao

Originally posted by solidsnake1331


very balanced, lmao

Yes the truth would be considered as being balanced. Maybe you re used to reading lies or even telling the lies. Is that why 2 word reply and so many smileys?
You should be laughing when you read "It was accidental mis-calibration by the technician" by professional soldiers, not when someone says the truth and sees it for what it really is.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN


Yes the truth would be considered as being balanced. Maybe you re used to reading lies or even telling the lies. Is that why 2 word reply and so many smileys?
You should be laughing when you read "It was accidental mis-calibration by the technician" by professional soldiers, not when someone says the truth and sees it for what it really is.

Pieman, I dont understand your need to balance your debate/argument with insults to people...so if we dont agree with you...and I don't, then I/we are not only readers of lies...but tellers of lies too?
In my opinion you continue to trot out Op/Ed articles and hold them up as unbiased/just the facts news stories.
And believe it or not...yeah, miscalculations, miscalibrations, and plain ole human error play a large part in military actions...not a war has been fought in history where civilians have not ended up being collateral damage. And before anyone howls with rage...I mean collateral damage in the strictest sense of the word..."an unintended target"

deadpan,

I think Pieman is trying to get you to see that this situation is a cause & effect. Yet no one considers the original cause as a viable excuse for what the biased media has painted. The israeli/hezzbolah conflict recently was completely covered by the news media in favor of isreal.

Did you see coverage of the many times dozens of civilians died in an apparent strike by IDF? No? because the news was too busy showing the warehouse roof that now has a hole in it because of a rogue missile.

Just so you know, your position is in favor of thse powerful enough to mislead the reality of the situation. And are now left pointing the finger at the third generation, parentless children that just want to live in peace, in their own land, without the illegal, oppresive regime in Israel.

Answer me please, what do you really feel about the palestinian refugees? They are all crazy killers of freedom like Bush & comp say? Or are they simple people that have seen decades of illegal oppression and civilian casulties and have no other means except to fight their gorrila war.

Answer me this... who's land is it? The UN told Israel to get out in the 70's, yet they still occupy. Think about all that... because yes... I can tell you that you are misled on your position and I'm no liar...

Peace & truth

AAC

Originally posted by deadbang
Pieman, I dont understand your need to balance your debate/argument with insults to people...so if we dont agree with you...and I don't, then I/we are not only readers of lies...but tellers of lies too?
In my opinion you continue to trot out Op/Ed articles and hold them up as unbiased/just the facts news stories.

First of all I guess you are not familiar with the rules here. generally a reply of 3 words with 1000 smileys plus the entire article being quoted is in itself unneccessary and ridiculous. If he has something to add, then add it not stick in sarcasm and walk away.
I never said it was a NEWS story, but if you are willing to accept news as being excuses by government officials why not accept a story from a journalist thats based on truth and comes from the heart?

And believe it or not...yeah, miscalculations, miscalibrations, and plain ole human error play a large part in military actions...not a war has been fought in history where civilians have not ended up being collateral damage. And before anyone howls with rage...I mean collateral damage in the strictest sense of the word..."an unintended target"

Well you know what Mr. Family of 8...you can accept those lousey excuses and you can accept their deaths only because its not your family. I am the father of 3 and I know I would never accept that for my own. therefore I will not be a hypocrite and accept it when it comes to someone elses family no matter where they are. Israelis lost to Qassam rockets in the past year 0, Palestinians lost to Bombing, Shelling, Raids 500+ and counting.

The situation over there is quite different from ours here. Their army is not like ours where there are different factions involved. Its quite easy for a soldier living in a settlement to vent out his frustrations and aid the cause to rid his country of a few more Palestinians then normally required by simply moving the crosshairs over a notch and attributing it to error. Yes there are fanatic Jews and yes they are in the military service, everyone 18 or over is required. A comparison of our 2 armies is totally different. Our men and women in the US generally don't have a hatred or vendetta with the enemy deep rooted like some of these IDF and IAF can possibly have. You may be under the impression that the Israelis are without vehemence well if you look back at some notable quotes made by leaders since its inception people like Ben-Gurion or Sharon you will find some very nasty beliefs in regards to crushing the Palestinians.

Theodore Herzl 1895

The removal of Arabs bodily is part of the zionist plan to "spirit the penniless population acros the frontier by denying it unemployment....Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried away discreetly and circumspectly"

Raphael Eitan 1983

When we have settled the land, all the arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockaroaches in a bottle.
--------------------------------------------------------
April 14,1983
We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel..Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.

David Ben-Gurion 1948

We must do everything to ensure they (the palestinian refugees) never do return
----------------------------

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal;we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-semetism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?

They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

Israel Koenig "The Koenig Memorandum" 1976

We must use terror, assassination,intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galillee of its Arab population.

Menachim Begin 1982

[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.

Shlomo Lehat mayor of Tel-Aviv 1983
We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned here to live as slaves.

Moishe Dyan from his diaries undated

Our strategy was to always provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them.

Ariel Sharon 1982

I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremburg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.

Feel free to google these quotes on your own.

I have read the majority of these online in the past. I was watching a youtube and copied them by hand as it had them all in one place.

The Video

Here's a nice video from an orthodox jew... perhaps this will provide evidence that there are things you don't know about the truth behind the middle east conflict.


www.youtube.com...