What if Jesus survivied the cross or was not crucified?

" wasn't it Jesus who said " the greatest love is to sacrafice your life ofr another "?


This comes from the same book which says he was crucified in every major book of the new testament.

If you think jesus said this qoute, then believe the rest of the book which says the messiah died for our sins.


peace.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Color me slow, but what are you saying, Lev?

Dude, when you start worrying about hell, you start worshipping through fear. From what I believe, attrition is not a path that we should be following.
I have a belief that if you're going to worship God (or in your case Jesus as well) that you have to make that choice for the right reason - not a reason that involves a selfishness on the worshipper's part.

I don't know what your take is on this dude, maybe it was just a passing comment, but I feel that hell is an option for all of us. If you go there, you go there. But you can't try and save yourself from going there by worshipping through fear of it.

Originally posted by Truth
If you think jesus said this qoute, then believe the rest of the book which says the messiah died for our sins.

I'd still like to see someone explain just how anyone's death can atone your sins. What is it that's supposedly "fixed"? Are we all sinless since the crucifixion? Did anything at all change after this supposed execution? This is illogical thinking...a way for guilty people to justify allowing a horrible murder, if it did indeed occur.

Yes i've heard much about this book in particular, and i'm looking forward to reading it as well. I happen to like the gnostics because they're raw and un-censored. Down With Censorship!!!

INDEED!

The Davinci code is it's own theory in itself, it includes people like walt disney, but its still a very interesting read.

I don't know if Jesus survived the crucifixion, but he COULD have. I met a man in Los Angeles named Curtis Reed. Mr. Reed learned to slow his bodily functions to the point where he simulated death. He learned this in India. When I met him, he was standing as a statue. He said that he was so good at doing the statue, that one time some guys tried to steal him! They picked him up and he said, "Put me down!" The guys freaked out and ran, of course.
I would think that if Curtis Reed could do it, Jesus could do it.
As to WHY... anyone would "die for us"....I think that Jesus was showing us that WE could do that, too. He either lowered his bodily functions to simulate death or he had an out-of-body experience, which would explain how he could appear as a "ghost" to some people.
Then he could return to normal at a later time, travel to another land and preach there as well.

The crusification of Jezus makes me think of the Greek story of the coin which had to be placed in the mouth of the death so they could go to the underworld of Hades, while the living didn't nead that coin... they could go directly.

I have the feeling that coin is something for medical purposes, so that your brain doesn't damage or something (I mean they are Gods... so that is the least of what you could expact of what they are able...).

Could Jesus who died on the cross just be a metaphor just like Osiris which was cut into 14 pieces and made alive again... the Greek coin... and the cross of Christ?

They were all death... but somehow they lived again... does look like a medical God to me...

So that kinda raises the question:
were they really death or did they just seem death while they still managed to live forth with the medical assistence of those Gods...?

What if the resurection isn't when Jesus was death... but just seemed that way because people thought Jesus was death while he wasnt...

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Satyr
I'd still like to see someone explain just how anyone's death can atone your sins. What is it that's supposedly "fixed"? Are we all sinless since the crucifixion? Did anything at all change after this supposed execution? This is illogical thinking...a way for guilty people to justify allowing a horrible murder, if it did indeed occur.

It was a symbol. The blood of the "Lamb of God" was representative of the temple sacrifices that the priests made in the Jewish Temples for atonement. He was supposed to be the "purest, final sacrifice". After the crucifixion it was no longer necessary to perform temple sacrifices. The Spirit of Truth was supposed to descend over the earth after Jesus ascended. I think that the Spirit's blanketing of the earth was meant to signify the cleansing, enveloping "blood of the Lamb". I also think that, whether or not it actually happened the way it is written, the crucifixion as our Salvation was meant to illustrate that to be like "God" we must be willing to sacrifice ourselves for mankind. In other words, we must "Love our neighbor as ourselves." and that "a man hath no greater love than this, that he be willing to lay down his life for a friend."

Originally posted by jezebel

Originally posted by Satyr
I'd still like to see someone explain just how anyone's death can atone your sins. What is it that's supposedly "fixed"? Are we all sinless since the crucifixion? Did anything at all change after this supposed execution? This is illogical thinking...a way for guilty people to justify allowing a horrible murder, if it did indeed occur.

It was a symbol. The blood of the "Lamb of God" was representative of the temple sacrifices that the priests made in the Jewish Temples for atonement. He was supposed to be the "purest, final sacrifice". After the crucifixion it was no longer necessary to perform temple sacrifices. The Spirit of Truth was supposed to descend over the earth after Jesus ascended. I think that the Spirit's blanketing of the earth was meant to signify the cleansing, enveloping "blood of the Lamb". I also think that, whether or not it actually happened the way it is written, the crucifixion as our Salvation was meant to illustrate that to be like "God" we must be willing to sacrifice ourselves for mankind. In other words, we must "Love our neighbor as ourselves." and that "a man hath no greater love than this, that he be willing to lay down his life for a friend."

That makes no sense. "God" didn't require human sacrifices. It's like "wrong religion", or something! The god that Christ was supposedly the son of, was not the "throw people into the volcano" type god. If he was, they were stupid to follow such a lame-brained religion in the first place. It still makes absolutely no sense, unless you really want it to, IMO. If I've somehow mistaken the xian religion for a non-sacrificial religion, I guess I'll have to do a little more research. I was under the impression that "Thou shalt not kill" would render any sacrifices unnecessary? I really must wonder if they decided that it was a so called "sacrifice" before, or after the event.

Originally posted by Satyr

That makes no sense. "God" didn't require human sacrifices. It's like "wrong religion", or something! The god that Christ was supposedly the son of, was not the "throw people into the volcano" type god. If he was, they were stupid to follow such a lame-brained religion in the first place. It still makes absolutely no sense, unless you really want it to, IMO. If I've somehow mistaken the xian religion for a non-sacrificial religion, I guess I'll have to do a little more research. I was under the impression that "Thou shalt not kill" would render any sacrifices unnecessary? I really must wonder if they decided that it was a so called "sacrifice" before, or after the event.

Not human sacrifices, animal sacrifices. The Israelites and Jews had to take an offering of the first fruits of their labor to the temple on specific days. The priests would then make a "burnt offering" as a penance to God.
After the crucifixion, this was no longer required for salvation. Since those rituals were for the "chosen people" and redemption was now bestowed upon everyone.

Too bad no one ever told them that animal sacrifices weren't necessary either. They might have learned something. Of course, the only hell most people ever saw for not practicing the "correct" religion, was persecution by the followers of that religion. No one has ever been punished by "god"....only punished by humans who feel that they're doing god's work.

[Edited on 11-18-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
Too bad no one ever told them that animal sacrifices weren't necessary either. They might have learned something. Of course, the only hell most people ever saw for not practicing the "correct" religion, was persecution by the followers of that religion. No one has ever been punished by "god"....only punished by humans who feel that they're doing god's work.

[Edited on 11-18-2003 by Satyr]

I'll have to agree with you on that. Our insistence on a "human-God" (not Jesus, but God in general)with all of the flaws and mood swings that we have, is kinda silly.

Originally posted by jezebel
I'll have to agree with you on that. Our insistence on a "human-God" (not Jesus, but God in general)with all of the flaws and mood swings that we have, is kinda silly.

Exactly! This obsession with power and loyalty is a human obsession. Why would a "god" even care? Why would a "god" have human emotions at all? To me, it's plain as day. Why don't others see how ridiculous it is? I think that's where the phrase, "Blinded by faith" comes into play.

No no no, God told these israelis to offer sacrafices of animals, namely sheep, for a sin offering before Jesus came as the final sacrafice. After which animal sacrafices were wiped out because the ultimate sacrafice Jesus has been given, the clean oblation we offer for sins in church.


" The wrong religion "


Not true. God was with adam and eve, and was with Noah on the arc, he revealed to them the truths of himself and was with them all their days. How can you say "they practise the wrong religion" yet say God does exist?

Don't you have a clue that God was with them until the beggining? He gave them the commands, he taught them how to sacrafice pure offerings. This is how serious God takes sin. You have to think for yourselves.

Whywould God creat a world and not apear to its first beings and let them practise a wrong religion? Why would (humans) creat a strict moral law (commands) without God when we have no clue on the basis of how serious sin is, at this time they were given these commands were being broken.

Noone ever sits back and says, wow these are the commands of perfection on earth, what a human to know and creat them but never realize God is behind it.


God is perfect we are not. Sin must be erased and paid for because Gods perfection demands it. And he sent his son Jesus for the final perfect payment and it was God himself who loves you people so much that he died for your sins. think about it in true conscience.


God Bless, peace.

I don't think we're even on the same subject. I think you forgot to add brain softner to that last load.

[Edited on 11-18-2003 by Satyr]

" brain softner "

Add as well some sincere thinking and youll understand.


peace.

Originally posted by Truth
Not true. God was with adam and eve, and was with Noah on the arc, he revealed to them the truths of himself and was with them all their days. How can you say "they practise the wrong religion" yet say God does exist?

There is more than just the Judeo-Christian God that people believe in. Just because you believe that the Bible is literal, doesn't mean you or anyone else is wrong. No one will know who was right until we die, which is why it's a matter of faith.

Don't you have a clue that God was with them until the beggining? He gave them the commands, he taught them how to sacrafice pure offerings. This is how serious God takes sin. You have to think for yourselves.

What does an all-knowing, all-powerfull, perfect God need with burnt or blood sacrifices? Or for that matter, why would God, who made & is in all things, need to be worshipped, so much so, that It created a living creature, gave it free choice, but made door #2 open into an eternity of pain and torture? Especially when God knew before hand how things would play out and that most of mankind would end up condemned. Does this make sense to you?

Originally posted by TruthGod is perfect we are not. Sin must be erased and paid for because Gods perfection demands it. And he sent his son Jesus for the final perfect payment and it was God himself who loves you people so much that he died for your sins. think about it in true conscience.

If all things are of God and without God nothing was made, then sin, Hell, & Satan are all part of or created by God as well. (I know Satan was supposed to be a fallen angel, but God would still have had to create him with pride, & be aware that he was going to attempt a mutiny. Otherwise He wouldn't be an all-knowing God, would he?) While it is obvious that humans are far from perfect, the reason that is the case is because of our human nature. Our desire to be praised & loved, our tendency to be jealous & hate, our self-righteous judgment of others, those are human character traits, not God's. So while I don't doubt that God could manifest Itself in any form that It wants, including Buddah, Jesus, Muhhamed, or Scooby Doo, I cannot accept that an omniscient, omnipotent, loving God, would punish and torture a primative lifeform, when It already knew ou fate of before It made us. That is something man would do.

Very good points, Jezebel. I'm almost positive that humans created "God" in their image. What would a god need a bloody sheep for?

It was a symbol. The blood of the "Lamb of God" was representative of the temple sacrifices that the priests made in the Jewish Temples for atonement. He was supposed to be the "purest, final sacrifice". After the crucifixion it was no longer necessary to perform temple sacrifices. The Spirit of Truth was supposed to descend over the earth after Jesus ascended. I think that the Spirit's blanketing of the earth was meant to signify the cleansing, enveloping "blood of the Lamb". I also think that, whether or not it actually happened the way it is written, the crucifixion as our Salvation was meant to illustrate that to be like "God" we must be willing to sacrifice ourselves for mankind. In other words, we must "Love our neighbor as ourselves." and that "a man hath no greater love than this, that he be willing to lay down his life for a friend."

After all, the bible is supposed to be metaphorical

Then why in the hell do people take it so literally?