What if Jesus survivied the cross or was not crucified?

An intriguing article which offers an alternative to the common story in respect to the life of Jesus...



However, I now want to share with you something, which is perhaps, one of the most disturbing schools of thought, both for the Catholic and Protestant Church. But what is supremely important, is that the real message of Jesus and the truth of what he both says and represents, is just as valid even if he did not die on the cross.

His death and resurrection can be seen both on a spiritual level and a literal one and to the believer it matters not which view is taken so long as the truth of what is represented is accepted. The truth is that the passion of Christ is the physical embodiment of the love of God.


Rest of link....

www.ra-horakhty.co.uk...

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 12-11-2003 by Toltec]

He died - get over it. As for refutation of Osiris/Jesus parallels, see:

www.tektonics.org...

www.tektonics.org...

www.tektonics.org...

Another perspective that has been discussed before, is what if God and/or Jesus, or even if all the major religions that we know of where actually E.T.'s? If they had advanced technology it wouldn't be that hard to gather believers. Just think if you took a Computer back in time even 200 yrs ago, or heck even a walkman, people would have believed you were either the devil, or some messiah or (sheesh who knows what they would have thought). But lets take this perspective a step further, what if they come back, and their intentions weren't very peacefull. What then, do we follow along believing them to be our creator's or do we revolt? Everything our society's have been taught and based around would pretty much be in chaos thats for sure.

Originally posted by Toltec
But what is supremely important, is that the real message of Jesus and the truth of what he both says and represents, is just as valid even if he did not die on the cross.

His death and resurrection can be seen both on a spiritual level and a literal one and to the believer it matters not which view is taken so long as the truth of what is represented is accepted. The truth is that the passion of Christ is the physical embodiment of the love of God.

Here's some scripture from the bible which shows that it does matter whether Jesus died and rose or not.

1 Corinthians 15:14-20
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up-- if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
(NKJ)

It's interesting you should make that comment Jagd, as rather, one is inclined to consider the opposite as more valid, especially in light of 1 Corinthians 15:14-20.


Specifically, what evidence exists of his death and resurrection outside of the Bible?

A lot more than simply doing good deeds has been justified by this event, forgiveness for sins which had not been committed seems a rather interesting advantage.

Lets face it, if a person does something on impulse that is inherently wrong, he or she can at the very least know that going to heaven wont be an issue.

The same thing applies the next time it happens, poor impulse control being part of Gods plan has a myriad of advantages would you not agree?


Any thoughts?

1 Corinthians 15:15
15. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Notice the term "raised Christ from the dead" and the term "been raised from the dead". I do not see how you can infer that the Bible infers that Jesus did not die on the cross in light of 1 Corinthians 15:14-15:20. To say otherwise would be a blatantly biased reading of the passage. Also what evidence is there that Jesus survived the crucifixion other than some vague theories of swooning, etc. We need not go into the technical details of what a crucifixion entailed, but the Romans knew how to do the job and knew a dead man when they saw one. The spear puncturing by the Roman soldier would have been fatal by itself. These guys were the best in the ancient world and knew what they were doing. Most likely the spear penetrated into the heart (and definitely punctured a lung). Jesus was some two thousand years away from paramedics and ICU's. Also if you do not want to believe the Bible about the death of Jesus, why would you believe someone who said that Jesus lived?

[Edited on 13-11-2003 by jagdflieger]

Jagdflieger... do you really rather believe the Bible then the Egyptian mythologie? And do you really believe that the Gods war etc. in Egypt wasn't the war of Lucifer? That the war of the plagues and Moses was the same as the war startet when the Gods war in Egypt existed, after Seth and Horus. The simularities between Isis and Mary... and that Jesus should have been Horus (and no not Osiris which the sites which you gave try to fight against...).

Horus was Jesus... Osiris wasn't... and what happens then? Is Jesus then still not crucified? No he isn't because Horus lived still lived... and was taken back by God... just as Jesus... only he wasn't dead.

Which mythologie is right?

Originally posted by Toltec
It's interesting you should make that comment Jagd, as rather, one is inclined to consider the opposite as more valid, especially in light of 1 Corinthians 15:14-20.


Specifically, what evidence exists of his death and resurrection outside of the Bible?

Excuse me, are you serious??? There is a dangerous habit of viewing the Bible, as a complete work, as ONE work. There are four gospels, and several epistles contained within this compilation that support the death and resurrection of Christ. In addition, when one takes into account the writings of the early church fathers, which were not canonized...there is a wealth of support out there.

But let's look past the simple recording of the death and resurrection and let us look at the record of SECONDARY evidence of something very dramatic happening post-crucifixion.

The day Jesus hung on the cross he had 12 idiots who 1. still hadn't gotten what his mission was, 2. scattered like chickens with a fox after them.

Somewhere past the third day, every one of these men (with the exception of the one that hung himself out of grief) was so "changed" and so convicted and so committed to the TRUE nature and mission of Christ that every one of them not only experienced, but did not avoid torturous, persecuted lives and deaths. Not only were THEY so changed by the occurences that took place post crucifixion that they gave their lives over to spreading the gospel and its meaning, but a good 30-40 more signed up as well.

The evidence is abundant that something happened after the crucifixion and DEATH of Christ that was irrefutable to those present, and those who knew them and saw the change in them.

nobody can prove is he died or not they interpretted the bible like 100 years after he was around and when he was around they persecuted him and his followers for heresy, and labelled his following a vile superstition
i don't think he died as the bible states i got no reasoning tho haha

One famous theory says that while Christ appeared dead, he was still alive and taken down from the cross by St. Joseph of Arimethia. Not only did Jesus survive, but married and had children. A whole other can of worms, isn't it, when you think their might be the children of Christ running amok nowadays...

According to the Gnostics, a man named Simon was crucified in Jesus' place as a decoy, and JC lived to the age of 90, dying at the siege of Masada in AD 70.

One famous theory says that while Christ appeared dead, he was still alive and taken down from the cross by St. Joseph of Arimethia. Not only did Jesus survive, but married and had children. A whole other can of worms, isn't it, when you think their might be the children of Christ running amok nowadays...

Yep, this idea was first discovered in Rennes, France, if I recall...and the thinking was that he and Mary Magdellan married and had children while living in France....

Yep, G, and the "Saang Graal," or Holy Grail refers to this surviving blood line of JC&MM. The Pillory Du Sion/Grail conspiracy/mega hoax/secret cosmic game is one of the more puzzling aspects of our culture...It seems to connect to everything

Originally posted by daeldren
Another perspective that has been discussed before, is what if God and/or Jesus, or even if all the major religions that we know of where actually E.T.'s? If they had advanced technology it wouldn't be that hard to gather believers. Just think if you took a Computer back in time even 200 yrs ago, or heck even a walkman, people would have believed you were either the devil, or some messiah or (sheesh who knows what they would have thought). But lets take this perspective a step further, what if they come back, and their intentions weren't very peacefull. What then, do we follow along believing them to be our creator's or do we revolt? Everything our society's have been taught and based around would pretty much be in chaos thats for sure.

This is probably the largest reason I call myself agnostic, instead of atheist. It's very possible, and frankly, a much more likely possibility, IMO. If Jesus was an alien/human hybrid, it would also explain the strange rumors about seemingly telepathic powers, the ability to walk on water....etc. Artificial insemination would also explain how a "virgin" could have a child. It makes a hell of alot more sense to me, than the primitive version. See? I'm not unreasonable. I know something happened. I just don't think it was quite the way they portray it.

And yes, it was very common to mistake people for dead back then. People have been burried alive in the past, for lack of medical knowledge.

[Edited on 11-13-2003 by Satyr]

It's common for people's spiritual guardians to give people encounters and visions to try and describe reality to them in some easily understood form. There are countless different versions of reality given to people by their own guardians.

The version Jesus followed was the one given to Enoch by Enoch's own guardians just before he died. Enoch's tribe believed in that version and so a religion was created. Was it the truth? I would suggest "No" it wasn't. However the tribes believed in it and therefore various spiritual guardians only needed to manifest a little phenomena every now and then to keep this belief system alive. Jesus himself said that he came only for a certain tribe and not for the dogs of other tribes. This meant that his belief system was a relative thing, and he knew it.

However I think that all belief systems reflect reality in some ways and so should not be completely discounted.

Aliens of course can manifest godly phenomena if they want to and so it would not be hard for them to manipulate the primitive mind.

From my own encounters with aliens I can confidently say that the aliens did create religions.

I think Christ's message is helpful so long as it is not used for selfish reasons.

The people nailed to crosses did not die until their legs were broken, because the weight of the body was supported by the legs and when broken the weight transferred to the arms and squeezed all the air from the chest.

[Edited on 12-11-2003 by Aztec]

Just a friendly reminder

RELIGION=EVIL


Please resume the irrational nonsensical dialogue !

Jagdflieger, Well He Died get over it isn't really an answer is it Other Religions claim he didn't die but had children. Maybe That was the Holy Grail .. his OffSpring! ... oh i hear people shouting Blasphemy already ~ smirk .. i guess im goin to hell Anyways, he was also supposed to be part of the Merovingian Line.

Originally posted by herm
Yep, G, and the "Saang Graal," or Holy Grail refers to this surviving blood line of JC&MM. The Pillory Du Sion/Grail conspiracy/mega hoax/secret cosmic game is one of the more puzzling aspects of our culture...It seems to connect to everything

It seems a couple of comments here are based on "Holy Grail and The Holy Blood".
The confusion of "Holy Grail" le saint graal as Sang r�al' or "royal blood" originated with Sir Thomas Malory's misspelling in his Le Morte D'Arthur (15th C). There is no valid etymological basis for Baigent, Leigh & Lincoln's contention that "holy grail" means "holy blood".
The authors of "Holy Grail and the Holy Blood" took the wrong ball and ran with it. A simple cock up but one that invalidates a huge part of their argument.
I don't follow the Merovingian line that comes from the same book either. Too many authors make huge leaps of imagination, intersperse it with a bit of fact to cover up those leaps and expect you to believe that they have found the secret.

As for wether Jesus died? Some have taken his death to mean a spiritual death and resuurection rather than a physical one and this doesn't seem to contradict anything that was written in the Bible.
There are a myriad of theories that it could have been Simon on the cross, or Barabbas or Jesus was crucified but let down before he died. The whole Orthodox Christian faith is based on the physical death though and it would be a huge blow to find out that they could be wrong.

But the answer is that nobody knows. There are lots of little bits and peices that you can put together and draw your own conclusions from. But it will all merely be speculation.

I guess it all comes down to a question of belief.

I believe we should crucify Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

for more read up everyone, The Davinci Code, which everyone is reading right now......but oh well.....it the perspective of the gnostic gospels in it which do require some research. I truly enjoyed this book.