42% of Americans no longer believe in God

How is it taht people can dare say "There is more proof in favor of the existence of God that against." Then not offer anything at all.

God is a non-concept. God can't exist unless you first assign some non-contradictory meaning to the term "god".

The definition of god has been a moving line in the sand being pushed back time and again by philosophy and has never gained any ground in the last several hundred years.

For decades the Church as a whole has given up trying to define god because no definition can withstand simple logic. Your Almighty God is switftly defeated by logic.

Every time you ask someone who believes in god to explain what they mean you get the same fallacies over and over again:
Anton Thorn's - Fallacies

From the unsupported assertions of God they move to the unsupported assertions of moral decay in the culture. The fact is 58% of Americans are absolutely certain that god exists. This moral majority then goes about immorally impuning the characters of honest decent people who coincidentally know that God is a logical fallacy propped up by ignorance and powermongers.

You are in Iraq because of God belief. Christians and Muslims alike.

Muslims want America to stay in Iraq because you are convenient like Walmart. Christians want to stay in Iraq because "that's where all the targets are".

Columbus

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
???!!!!!

42 % ???!!!!!


omg what has happened to make them drop God?

I don't know what to say.... The Church is letting people down if they are so lost and without direction and thinking this way about God Almighty...

Sad post, makes me feel for those who are with out direction......

So if you don't believe you are "lost and without direction" ? Hah, gotcha. I rather follow my own morals than some religions. God has never done anything for me. Ohh blasphemy! but that's the truth may he strike me down now. Let him test me some more? I refuse to be a slave to a religion. Glad more people are waking up 42% is nice too bad I never trust polls.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by DoomX]

I still think it's more like 30-35%, but after thinking about it,
most of the people in my school (which is a little under 2,000
students) are'nt religious, and in my third period class, the
majority are atheists or agnostics, which is cool.

Originally posted by Columbus
How is it taht people can dare say "There is more proof in favor of the existence of God that against." Then not offer anything at all.

God is a non-concept. God can't exist unless you first assign some non-contradictory meaning to the term "god".

The definition of god has been a moving line in the sand being pushed back time and again by philosophy and has never gained any ground in the last several hundred years.

For decades the Church as a whole has given up trying to define god because no definition can withstand simple logic. Your Almighty God is switftly defeated by logic.

Every time you ask someone who believes in god to explain what they mean you get the same fallacies over and over again:
Anton Thorn's - Fallacies

From the unsupported assertions of God they move to the unsupported assertions of moral decay in the culture. The fact is 58% of Americans are absolutely certain that god exists. This moral majority then goes about immorally impuning the characters of honest decent people who coincidentally know that God is a logical fallacy propped up by ignorance and powermongers.

You are in Iraq because of God belief. Christians and Muslims alike.

Muslims want America to stay in Iraq because you are convenient like Walmart. Christians want to stay in Iraq because "that's where all the targets are".

Columbus

Very well put and I feel the same way 100%

JackJuice:

i understand religion is often the cause for a lot of violence in the world

You bet it is. Because most people find thinking for themselves difficult and like to be controlled by self-asserted authority. Especially Americans.

people should believe in something higher or greater than themselves

Why "god"? What is this "god"?

we lose the sane people that believe in God

No sane people believe in god. You must be ignoranct or brainwashed to believe in something that does not exist.

still believe in the American way

So the American Way is your way or the highway? What an OFFENSIVE lot you are.

Religion isn't the cause of violence it's just an excuse.

No doubt people will be violent without religion, but with religion, violence becomes the Will of God, and Righteous, and thus palatable, like the War in Iraq was to most American nutjobs. Thus, being false AND dangerous, I stress getting rid of it.

D4rk Kn1ght:

what has happened to make them drop God

Probably Bush.

they are so lost and without direction

That statement is OFFENSIVE. I know from experience that God is just a tool used by immoral people to attack those they don't agree with and has NO substance. I am not lost.

i'll keep my faith in Jesus and God, you can keep your faith in your dollar / gold / crystals / diamonds or what ever is more important to you than God and Jesus....

It's the Christian Bush supporters that love money, such as comes from OIL. Faith is a temporary state meant to be put to the test, then it goes away forever. God commands you not to put Him to the test because the people who wrote that know he'll fail. Faith is not something to keep, it's something you need to put to the test.

darkelf:

I have and still do study the Bible extensively. I find my personal relationship with Jesus to be a great comfort, especially now as I'm coming up on the first anniversary of the loss of both my parents.

Christianity is a mental virus that like all disease attacks when the spirit is weak. The only comfort you receive is in a falsehood. Your support of this deception has wicked consequences.

m3rlz:

all i have to do is look up at the night sky or see all these kick-ass images of the universe and it becomes quite apparent... there has to be something out there... there is a 'god' of some type

You assert a definition of god, but it is a leap of logic unjustified by anything. Like turtles all the way down, if there has to be a god, there has to be something beyond god. If there doesn't have to be anything beyond gosd, there doesn't have to be a god. Simple. There is no god. God is unnecessary. You have a preconceived notion of god then you try to squeeze him into a crack he might still fit in until science catches up a little more. That's the way its been for centuries. God on the run.

You might think that everyone believes in "god" none of you can agree on what you mean when you say "god". You think all religions can exist in peace? You all have a god, why not say this god is the same as that god? Because they're not. And none of them have real aspects.

Christian God and Islamic God only conflict in fictional aspects, like Adam West's Batman is not Christian Bale's Batman. You can say they're both Batman, why can't we get along, but they're not really the same.

I hope you learn something.

Columbus

Polls are not as telling as they appear to be. Keep in mind that this is a percentage of the people polled who feel this way, not a percentage of the entire country.

Having said that, I do suspect that "God" is not perceived today the way he was twenty or even ten years ago. As the population grows, the world shrinks, and the ratio of psychos to normal people increases exponentially, so we see more violence and cruelty than we did a century ago. This creates a negative impact of the abused religion in particular, and of religion as a whole.

"God", in his absolute sense, is a different being for everyone that considers him. No two people have the same perception of God; this is true for all of us. No two Muslims will perceive God exactly alike, nor will two Lutherans.

My God is, above all things, a moral anchor. And I doubt God, a lot sometimes. Occasionally I rant to him, sometimes nastily. There is a lot of evil in this world, whether evil is a dark religion or just needless violence, it's there.

It's only going to get worse.

Can we sticky this? I'm sick of seeing every single day some new nutjob come in here to ATS and say "We all know God exists, and so we must do such and such".

For crying out loud, DENY IGNORANCE is your motto. God is all ignorance and brainwashing.

Simple research from a non-religious site will inundate you with all the "tricks" used to get you hooked on the drug of comfort in salvation, to infect you when you are weak in the spirit and looking for answers.

It has been conclusively proven that God is BS. No answers in Genesis.

You have better proof of this that of the Pyramids being built by Egyptians. No one serious here really believes aliens built the pyramids because even as phenomenal as they are, they're still shoddy rock piles not tritanium freaking skyscrapers.

It's pure philosophy and literature. No hard evidence is available at all. The surest sign of fallacy.

At least here on ATS, if you say you saw a ghost and can't even post a picture no one will believe you, but say "We all believe in God." He's One Of Us, Let Him Pass!

Columbus

My God is, above all things, a moral anchor.

You can't make people listen, because they are ignorant.

Morality is a personal thing, you decide not god. By asserting god, you seek to absolve yourself of your moral weaknesses. We all have them. You don't need a crutch like god. And it's all relative, shades of grey. The "greater good" is a statement of relativity. If you believe God is the Greatest Good, you are a moral relativist. Christians love to assert morality is absolute. Then try to get them to explain how the Amalekites died. The Greatest Good commanded Evil Be Done.

Columbus

Columbus. You have your own reasons for thinking the way you do. Without getting too personal, I'll share this with you.

I am an abnormal person. Extremely abnormal, mentally. I don't like human interaction much, at least not from say 99% of the population. I have witnessed and participated in beautiful and horrible things through my lifetime. I'm only 24, younger than several on these boards.

From one point of view, I am evolution embodied. I have little emotions about most things. I don't have much of a conscience. I could be survival of the fittest in human form, since a conscience, feelings. love, things like that have no natural, Darwinian purpose.

But not everyone is like me. There are some, or at least one that I know of, who are kind, warm-hearted people, but just as determined as I am in some things without being a cold prick about it, which I come off as oftentimes. I'd like to be more outgoing, I'd like to find "the one", just like everyone else, even if it seems unlikely for me most of the time. I'm depressing like that.

In my opinion, it is these emotional differences which tell me there must be a God, as again, what purpose to feelings and intellect play in pure, natural survival, if only detrimental? Why would some people be perpetually happy regardless of how sad or damning their life has been, and others are constantly depressed and dejected even in the face of joy and opportunity?

It's because we are not natural, in my opinion. We all have a purpose. Some people think that purpose is God, some might just say fate or destiny. You would say it's all coincodence, yes? Not to use the proverbial "invisible pink unicorn" logic, but for us all to have formed by chance, is like saying you're confident that a bunch of steel, plastic, and wires could not only be individually formed by pure chance, but would also fall out of the sky into just the right order and form a Mercedes. Do you find this likely, Columbus? Because regardless of how unlikely it is, the chance creation of life is even higher in mathematical odds against.

Regardless of your answer, I respect your opinion, as again I recognize that everyone has their own set of ideals and individual identity that decides who and what they are and what they want to be. But as a person who wishes to have your own form of peace in the world, whether for you peace is love, happiness, completion, fulfullment, success, just plain peace, or just plain being left alone, you need to realize that as individuals, some people will always look into the spiritual realm for answers and guidance.

A flying spaghetti monster gives me my morals. If you don't take morals from my flying spaghetti monster, you're immoral. That means 99% of the US population is heretical. And it's only growing every year. Something must be done to help my flying spaghetti monster, who must exist. I challenge you to show that he doesn't.

In the beginning, the Flying Spaghetti Monster reached out His Noody Appendage. May He touch you with his Noody Appendage and bathe you in his Sauce forever- RAmen.

I have found more like myself. If you would like to join His Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, google Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He is always looking for new converts that will appreciate His Noodly Appendage and commune in his Sauce.

...since a conscience, feelings. love, things like that have no natural, Darwinian purpose.

Actually, they do have evolutionary purposes.

A consciousness allows the species to survive better.

Love serves a similar purpose, it keeps the species from outright
killing eachother off, it alos promotes reproduction, especially
positive trait propogation.


Just thought I'd mention that.

Hey, get a grip, Red.

Not once did I say I find those outside my religion immoral. Don't think anyone's said that. I also never claimed to belive in the same perception of God that you seem to think you're bashing.

I respect the man/woman, not the flag they fly, not the religion they follow. We all earn our respect by our actions, in my nature. I can tell however that you're not quite comfortable in your choice of ideology. How can I tell this?

Take Columbus. He has his ideas, he gets his feelings out there. We don't share an ideology, but we share a mutual conversation. He doesn't feel the need to bash something he doesn't believe in; rather, he questions its logic and use in reality.

But you, my brother of Marinara (may it drip in peace), need to reaffirm your views by mocking those of others. Which is weakness, and earns zero respect or serious consideration from anyone who's legitmately sharing ideas.

Again, weak. Think before speaking.

iori, maybe you're right. I'm no genius, just sharing my own mind to give some meaning behind the words.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Astygia]

I am an abnormal person. Extremely abnormal, mentally. I don't like human interaction much, at least not from say 99% of the population. I have witnessed and participated in beautiful and horrible things through my lifetime. I'm only 24, younger than several on these boards.

I am much older than you but much the same apparently. I do not assert such, it is merely apparent.

I am evolution embodied. I have little emotions about most things. I don't have much of a conscience. I could be survival of the fittest in human form, since a conscience, feelings. love, things like that have no natural, Darwinian purpose.

This is not true Darwinism. Things don't realy survive in the wild with such attitudes. That is why "society" is common amongst most animal species including humans.

...what purpose to feelings and intellect play in pure, natural survival, if only detrimental?

Cooperation is fundamental to survival. Multicellular life like us evolved from individual cells like bactieria cooperating. No god involved or necessary.

Why would some people be perpetually happy regardless of how sad or damning their life has been, and others are constantly depressed and dejected even in the face of joy and opportunity?

Happiness is merely a desired state. People become depressed because they are either unable to find happiness or they find it too easily and become bored. People may seem perpetually happy on the outside but this is frequently a defensive reaction. Speaking for myself, if I do not appear happy, people will become nosy.

We all have a purpose.

You choose your purpose in doing something that makes you happy. It is in the doing not in the ends. People who seek ends (power) will become depressed because of the ease of ends and the nothingness afterwards.

Some people think that purpose is God, some might just say fate or destiny.

None of these things is a "do". They are all ends, like power. You can't truly be happy with ends. That is why people with power and money always want more.

You would say it's all coincodence, yes?

No.

a bunch of steel, plastic, and wires could not only be individually formed by pure chance, but would also fall out of the sky into just the right order and form a Mercedes.

This is a fallacy, and a continuing insult to me, see the links I posted. Metal bits have no survival instinct, yet you would assert that bees build a hive only because God told them to, not because it might help them to survive.

The chance creation of life is even higher in mathematical odds against.

Mathematics made up and asserted ad hoc by Christian Creationist nutjobs are not respected academic theories. TalkOrigins is the correct source of accurate information.

Columbus

Not once did I say I find those outside my religion immoral.

No, but it is implied. Christians only need slight the atheist. It is not necessary to outright state atheists are immoral. It is implied. Everyone is assumed to know this. Just if I called you a Communist or a Liberal. You're immorality would be implied. That is why such discussion should be tread lightly.

He has his ideas, he gets his feelings out there. We don't share an ideology,...

I do not possess an ideology. While I have feelings on this matter, I prefer to get facts out there. And they are not getting into your head, even though you talk nice, your mind is shut.

Columbus

Originally posted by Astygia
Hey, get a grip, Red.

Not once did I say I find those outside my religion immoral. Don't think anyone's said that. I also never claimed to belive in the same perception of God that you seem to think you're bashing.

I respect the man/woman, not the flag they fly, not the religion they follow. We all earn our respect by our actions, in my nature. I can tell however that you're not quite comfortable in your choice of ideology. How can I tell this?

Take Columbus. He has his ideas, he gets his feelings out there. We don't share an ideology, but we share a mutual conversation. He doesn't feel the need to bash something he doesn't believe in; rather, he questions its logic and use in reality.

But you, my brother of Marinara (may it drip in peace), need to reaffirm your views by mocking those of others. Which is weakness, and earns zero respect or serious consideration from anyone who's legitmately sharing ideas.

Again, weak. Think before speaking.

iori, maybe you're right. I'm no genius, just sharing my own mind to give some meaning behind the words.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Astygia]

You're missing the point. I believe exactly what some other people believe, only with different names that make the ideas sound concrete rather than abstract terms such as all powerful god that make it harder for people to think logically about something. I have no idea about you're beliefs though since I was replying to someone else.

And where did I say I'm Christian, Columbus? All you know of my religion is that I perceive a God. For all you know, it's a flying spaghetti monster. Neither did I imply that you're immoral, again I just shared some of my personality in the hope that it would help you understand my point. My mistake I guess, this is why being anti-social isn't such a bad thing sometimes.

Further, my mind isn't "shut"; it's difficult for me to put things into words, let alone "talk nice". If this offends you, I suggest growing thicker skin.



[edit on 3-11-2006 by Astygia]

I am replying just to get my two cents in. There is no need, in my mind, to belittle ones belief or disbelief in a god, God, Goddess or any combination of the aforementioned. So, my two cents:

I am a spiritual person. I will admit to that without any delay. However, I am not a religious person. By this I mean that I do not feel, personally, that the partitioning of personal spiritual beliefs in order to meet the criteria set by individuals in position of religious power is right for me. For me.

I put 'for me' in bold because I want to make it perfectly clear that I am in no way bashing peoples devotion to whatever religious affiliation that they wish to concern themselves with. If you are devoted to your faith then more power to you in my book. In fact, I admire your personal conviction to follow whatever you see fit. I am all for religion as it helps people to find comfort. I am not, however, for religion taken to the extreme and used as a way to persecute, harm or call for the eradication of peoples who believe differently --and please do not come back saying "well Catholicism calls for...Islam calls for..." It only calls for it if interpreted to mean so today. There is a difference between the lessons one can learn from religion and not 'updating' the ideologies to satisfy the moral level at which we try and set ourselves today.

And to dispel anyone who would want to say that I have "not attempted to find god..." I have one more brief point to make: It is true; I am not actively seeking out a higher power. However, I am not outright putting the possibility of a higher power existing out of my mind. I, and nobody else, can know for sure if there is something greater and all we can do is speculate and, ideally, make our own beliefs. I have visited many places of worship from many different religions; asking questions all the while as I have a general interest in religion as a source of study. I have left myself open to see the beauty, and sometimes the ugly, in all systems of belief.

If anyone has read this far then I commend you. Sometimes I can get a little long winded.

Originally posted by Columbus
This is not true Darwinism. Things don't realy survive in the wild with such attitudes. That is why "society" is common amongst most animal species including humans.

Of course things survive with such attitudes. When's the last time you saw a family of snakes? Or a social spider? "Society" is a word we have created in order to put a name on human interaction as a whole.

Cooperation is fundamental to survival. Multicellular life like us evolved from individual cells like bactieria cooperating. No god involved or necessary.

Cooperation, yes. But this doesn't address what I said. Cooperation doesn't require intellect. It doesn't require emotions. It requires only instinct, as can be witnessed in animal or insect life. Do you think scorpions ponder the meaning of life, or wonder where they came from, or consider where they'll be next week?

Happiness is merely a desired state. People become depressed because they are either unable to find happiness or they find it too easily and become bored. People may seem perpetually happy on the outside but this is frequently a defensive reaction. Speaking for myself, if I do not appear happy, people will become nosy.

Ah, but this is fallacy. You're speaking for yourself and assuming that all others act the same because that's how you do things. We're not all you.

You choose your purpose in doing something that makes you happy. It is in the doing not in the ends. People who seek ends (power) will become depressed because of the ease of ends and the nothingness afterwards.

Maybe, maybe not. How are you to be sure that all people who seek power will be depressed in the end? Is it because that's how you would handle it, or has this been conclusively proven someplace?

I do agree that it is the "doing" where we find ourselves. However, you're looking at things from a very shallow point of view (I don't mean this offensively). Not all of us choose our purpose, some of us are born or raised into what we've become, yet we always have the capacity to change. This is not something that can be said of say, worker ants, or hive drones.

None of these things is a "do". They are all ends, like power. You can't truly be happy with ends. That is why people with power and money always want more.

Again, you're speaking in absolutes where you cannot logically do so. How do you know I can't be happy with "ends"? What if my "ends" is finding true love, and I do? Am I not truly happy with the results?

As before, you are seperating the subtle intricacies of life to answer them individually, rather than considering the whole of life and experience and how it changes us.

This is a fallacy, and a continuing insult to me, see the links I posted. Metal bits have no survival instinct, yet you would assert that bees build a hive only because God told them to, not because it might help them to survive.

This wasn't an insult to you, and it's no more fallacy than your beliefs are to me. The difference between us is that I am not insulted by conflicting opinion. You appear to be out to "educate the masses", period, which is just as ignorant as my telling everyone else my version of God is better than theirs. Hypocrisy.

However, since you consider it fallacy, I challenge you to find a more suitable analogy. Considering the inherit complexities of life even at the sub-cellular level, I thought the Mercedes example was actually pretty simple in comparison, since it didn't even need to address the need to possess a mind, the ability to react, the ability to learn, see, hear, feel, touch, taste, smell, or the drive to reproduce.

What's most important, I think, is that humans have a tendancy to experience things. When we do something, it's "like" doing something else. It reminds us of things. We smell a flower, it may remind us of another experience. We pick up a weapon, it reminds us of death (assuming you've killed or seen death).

Since you say you don't find life to be the result of coincodence, how do you feel it began?

Mathematics made up and asserted ad hoc by Christian Creationist nutjobs are not respected academic theories. TalkOrigins is the correct source of accurate information.

So, the only accurate place to find the origion of life is on TalkOrigins, period? Why not. While we're at it, Infowars is the only accurate information on the truth behind 9/11, and Betty Crocker is the only one who makes cakes right, yes?

My mathematics aren't made up by "nutjobs"; I don't even know what the actual math is. I am speaking in terms of common sense, a gain considering the complexity of life as a whole.

Your strange responses aside, again I respect the person, not their ideology. And you do have an ideology, Columbus. Yours is that there is not God. Don't bother pulling a dictionary.com definition, you know what I mean when I say ideology. Your outlook, your MO, your view, it's all the same.

And before you say it again, no I am not implying that you or anyone else are immoral, or going to hell for not following my religion, or a lesser person than I, or anything like this because of conflicting viewpoints. And again, I'm not Christian, Catholic, Muslim, or probably anything you can think of. So instead of attempting to mold me into some religion when you don't have the first idea, maybe at least try to address points with a real answer other than "read my link, you're wrong." This is a philosophical discussion, and as much as you'd like to pretend otherwise, there's no conclusive evidence FOR or AGAINST a spiritual realm.

Originally posted by Columbus
JackJuice:

i understand religion is often the cause for a lot of violence in the world

You bet it is. Because most people find thinking for themselves difficult and like to be controlled by self-asserted authority. Especially Americans.

I love this part "especially Americans", I have no clue where you are from but being as how large and diverse the world is I don't think I'd call you a moron (like your last statement basically said) based off of your nationality. Infact doing so would put into question said persons own intelligence.

Originally posted by Columbus

we lose the sane people that believe in God

No sane people believe in god. You must be ignoranct or brainwashed to believe in something that does not exist.

Just because others don't see the world the way you think they should doesn't mean us adults belittle them or their opinions.

Originally posted by Columbus

still believe in the American way

So the American Way is your way or the highway? What an OFFENSIVE lot you are.

So now you need to put words in my mouth in order to make your case? And you call me offensive? Listen, you either know very little about true american culture or are much to young to understand what i speak of.

Originally posted by Columbus

Religion isn't the cause of violence it's just an excuse.

No doubt people will be violent without religion, but with religion, violence becomes the Will of God, and Righteous, and thus palatable, like the War in Iraq was to most American nutjobs. Thus, being false AND dangerous, I stress getting rid of it.

You stress getting rid of something you clearly lack any understanding of, and you want to call religion dangerous? Lets be very clear here, War is no more "palatable" because of religion than it is for any other reason. If we don't goto war in the name of a religion than it will just be in the name of some other reason, humans are pretty creative when it comes to this sort of justification.

Originally posted by Columbus
I hope you learn something.

Columbus

This is the best part yet! Seriously your posts are laugh out loud funny, please keep them coming that way i'll never get bored here.

-American Nutjob OUT!