Who's stolen Christmas?

Wow lots of passion in this thread.

I'm actually not quite sure if my post will get this back on topic or drive it further off topic.

If we get back on topic, I'd be as shocked as the next fella considering I don't think any of my missives have served to ever keep any thread on track.

That said I would like to say that I do tend to get a chuckle out of the war on christmas as it seems such a silly little thing when matched up against all the serious wars that are being fought or should be fought.

I'm a native to los angeles (and I think we know what that means; virgin sacrifices slathered in tofu and orgies of outrage and faux understanding) and I was raised jewish and I say merry christmas to everybody.

And by the way so does everyone I know that includes the hippies, commies bhuddists and sikhs.

If it seems to you like no one cares about the war on christmas it's because in the end...no one cares. This whole war on christmas like many things is a very vocal minority of people.

Every person and I mean every person I know (even those in los angeles and not of christrian faith) say merry christmas or happy christmas because we all like christmas.

Now again, I can only speak for myself and since I am a godless heathen I should say that for me the entire christmas season is certainly more about pretty lights and the "christmas spirit" than god or christ.

And I think for most people Christmas is a time of year when we hope people will be just a little bit nicer, feel a little more friendly. Nothing wrong with saying happy christmas to anybody.

If you happen to say happy christmas to someone or put up some decorations and they tell you that it is offensive because they aren't Christrian, you should tell that person that you hope they get a nice, new stick remover on christmas morning.

People who get offended by brightly colored lights and signs that say merry christmas are people who are looking to be offended. ANd they tend to be proffesional complainers.

So just do what everybody else does, ignore it.

Cover your house or apartment in pretty lights get a tree (a real one just for the wonderful smell) and say merry christmas to everyone you meet.

If you say it to me, I'll say it back I may also wish you a happy hanukah as well or fruitful quanza if that is what I know you celebrate but if I pass someone on the street or am at the store during the christmas season I always say merry christmas and am always happy to receive a merry christmas or give one back in kind.

So the war on christmas is silly, just ignore the grinch scrooges and enjoy.

Spiderjewthoughadmittedlymoreofabhuddist

Originally posted by roger_pearse


I myself believe that the Natalis Invicti was celebrated earlier; I merely point out the lack of actual evidence to show this.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Is the tradition of mans day (christmas) mentioned biblically? No.
Did the disciples at any time during their three and a half years walk with Messiah celebrate his birthday? No.

Even so, if we (man) were truly celebrating Yeshuas or "jesus" birthday on Dec 25th, then why do we give ourselves gifts? Why the tree? Why decorate with lights, ornaments, candycanes,gingerbread men, mistletoe, wreaths, etc etc etc etc.....? And worst of all, why is he Yeshua (jesus) STILL depicted as a baby in a manger?

And who is santa and what does he have to do with it???

All in all, I say no matter who you are or where you come from, if you (we) celebrate christmas you are doing it for yourself period. It's all about money, greed, false charity and idolatry, it is a 'way' that seems right and/or good, but it isn't. IF....you believe in YHWH (God of Israel) then you need to know Him. And if you know Him, you know His Words, desires and things He detests.

So can you truthfully say the celebration of christmas pleases Him?

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge

Originally posted by roger_pearse
We don't take any of our customs from Sassanid Persia, to the best of my knowledge -- they were, after all, our enemies in Roman times -- so unless you have some ancient text that states this I would treat it as probably misinformation. Persian Mitra and Roman Mithras are not connected, except by having some of the same letters in the word.

I was thinking more of the Achaemenid period...

Which ended well before any possibility of influencing Christianity.

And, in fact, there is rather alot of research on the subject of Mithras being Persian in origin.

... all of it outdated. Mithras scholars rejected this idea in the 1950's. The real killer for it is the archaeology. We know Mithras best from the very distinctive temples, found up and down the Roman empire. But not one of these has ever been found in Persia. If Mithras was of Persian origin, this is inconceivable.

The other archaeological find is that the earliest inscriptions all point to people fanning out from Rome in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, suggesting an origin in Rome ca. 50 AD.

Still, in matters of religion there are no actual facts are there.

The rich and powerful of our day certainly would like the poor and powerless to believe so.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Still, in matters of religion there are no actual facts are there.

The rich and powerful of our day certainly would like the poor and powerless to believe so.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

roger, do you have any evidence to support this defaming claim against atheists?
because, i know plenty of rich and powerful televangelists that would LOVE the poor and powerless to believe

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Still, in matters of religion there are no actual facts are there.

The rich and powerful of our day certainly would like the poor and powerless to believe so.

roger, do you have any evidence to support this defaming claim against atheists?

I'm not sure I understand. How do atheists come into this?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

My 2 cents is

1. In some regions of the country, there are a lot of people who are not Christian. It makes sense in these regions to say "happy holidays" as opposed to "merry Christmas." In regions where virtually everyone is Christian, "merry Christmas" makes more sense.

2. Christmas has jumped the shark. It is no longer about family and friends being together and everything about petty consumerism. I refuse to participate in Christmas. I know little baby Jesus is crying that I did not spend 3 days camping out in front of Walmart so I could be the first person to spend $400 on a PS3, but the little bugger has got to get over it because nobody's birthday is that friggin special.

Peace all,

You'll find me eating Chinese and/or deli on December 25

Christmas is a worldwide religious/secular holiday. It is not just a holy day and the second-most important day in the Christian faith, it is also a secular holiday for nonbelieving families. Not only that; it has become integrated into American culture in particular. While other religions may have "fringe holidays" around the same time period, let's get real. Schools and universities get off for Christmas, even if it's called "Winter Break".

The holiday season is all about Christmas, and other holidays fall below it. By the way, I'm not even referring to Kwaanza (or Kwanzaa), which is a completely made-up holiday, and in my opinion is therefore not real.

Like it or not, America is a nation of strong Christian background. I would not be offended if I was in Israel and someone wished me a Happy Hannukah, because Jewish is the predominant religion. Likewise, no one should be offended at being wished a Merry Christmas in a Christian culture.

Originally posted by southern_cross3

The holiday season is all about Christmas, and other holidays fall below it. By the way, I'm not even referring to Kwaanza (or Kwanzaa), which is a completely made-up holiday, and in my opinion is therefore not real.

souther cross, almost every single religious and non-religious holiday is just made up

unless it's the commemeration of an event on the exact day it happened (and there is no evidence that the birth of jesus happened, and, if it did occur, no evidence points towards it happening at any time)

IMO, everything about religion is just made up

and i hold kwanza above christmas because it doesn't try to be commercial or religious, just purely community oriented

Maddness, Why do you continually go from thread after thread rejecting the truth of the Gospel? There were eyewitnesses. They are not talking about the myths that you hold in high esteem. They witnessed the truth.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

souther cross, almost every single religious and non-religious holiday is just made up

Somehow people believe that holidays and religions that were "made up" over a thousand years ago are more credible than religions and holdays made up this century. The people that think the claims Scientologists make are outlanding are often the same people that think the Bible's claims of Jesus walking on water, Moses parting the seas, etc. are beyond question.

sun matrix, if there were eyewitnesses, then why didn't they write anything down?

honestly, the literacy in the eastern part of the roman empire wasn't that low
it was actually above 50%

now, i'll take a conservative estimate and say there were only 5000 "witnesses" to the supposed works of jesus

why didn't any of them write anything about jesus down?

why do all our writings on jesus come from people born after the death of jesus?

To be fair, Jesus only had a very small group of devouted followers. Much of the 5000 people that would have witnessed his preaching would have considered him to be just another nut job rambling on in the town plaza. They probably would not have stopped to listen to him as they were going about their business, let alone bother to write down anything he was saying.

there would still be documentation of some aspect of his life
even if it was from 1 person
and supposedly there were 12 people who followed him devoutly
WHY didn't they write anything down?

hell, why didn't JESUS write anything down?

Maybe they did, and the books were lost. Perhaps we'll find them yet.

The Christian religion is not "made up", it is real and it is based on truth.

Kwanzaa was made up in 1966 by a black racist/nationalist who had the gall to change his name to Karenga. He borrowed parts of Christmas and Chanukah (true religious holidays) to invent his own holiday for black people. It's a joke, if anything at all.

Originally posted by Byrd


So that the cards are appropriate to all faiths. We tend to buy the cards in bulk and to send them to friends and family of many different faiths. The generic cards sell better -- the card sender doesn't have to buy a pack of Jewish cards and a pack of Cards Suitable For Someone Whose Faith We Don't know, and a different set for the agnostics, and a different set for the Baptists, etc, etc.

It's a way to include EVERYONE in the holiday!

Im sorry byrd, but that is ignorant.

If people are going to be offended by someone of a different faith showing them a little goodwill, then they have the problem, not the christians.

Originally posted by southern_cross3
Maybe they did, and the books were lost. Perhaps we'll find them yet.

The Christian religion is not "made up", it is real and it is based on truth.

Kwanzaa was made up in 1966 by a black racist/nationalist who had the gall to change his name to Karenga. He borrowed parts of Christmas and Chanukah (true religious holidays) to invent his own holiday for black people. It's a joke, if anything at all.

you cannot prove that a religion is based on truth, that's why a synonym for a religion is a "faith"

kwanzaa was made up so black people would have a time to celebrate their heritage in a community

and why is he in trouble for changing his name?
it's a legal right in the united states to change your name

why is a celebration of cultural heritage more of a joke than celebrating the birth of a figure that may or may not be fictional at a randomly appointed (or specifically overlapping) time?

I didn't say that he was in trouble for changing his name. However, he had a normal American name, and then changed it to a funky African name to "celebrate his heritage". He was a black nationalist and felon, among other things. Like a criminal version of Al Sharpton.

He completely made up the holiday. It would be as though an Indian (go ahead and yell at me to say Native American, I don't care) sat down and decided, "Today I'm going to invent a Native American holiday to steal from the Christmas season. Hmm, I think I'll borrow candles from other holidays. Let's see, better have an ancestral language -- I think I'll pick one from the southeast, just because. Now I'll make money!"

Absolutely stupidity. Christmas isn't a "white" holiday it should be a worldwide holiday for everyone to celebrate the birth of Christ.

southern_cross, it's about community, fellowship, and cultural heritage

it's not about stealing from christmas
in fact, it was designed to be an alternative for those not celebrating christmas
not as a holiday to say "you're black, celebrate this instead"
that's why it was slotted the way it was, so african-americans who didn't celebrate christmas wouldn't feel left out

Originally posted by southern_cross3



Christmas was made up in 166 by a Jew who had the gall to change his name to Paul from Saul. He borrowed parts of the Roman Winter Solstice holiday and Chanukah (true religious holidays) to invent his own holiday for Christian people. It's a joke, if anything at all.

There we go. Quote fixed.

Very interesting. You quoted me, yet I didn't say any of that.

I'm pretty sure there's a rule about deliberately changing quotes. Mods?