Who's stolen Christmas?

Rudolph or his elves

Rudolph didnt have elves. Hello Rudolph was a reindeer, in short venison on the hoof, dinner. Just like Bambi.

I have a better idea: if these people don't like merry christmas then why don't they pack up and go back to where they came from.

And where might that in your infinite wisdom be? Everyone here ( and I mean in the Americas ) does not follow
either Native American beliefs or beliefs of Norther European Pagans conjoined with Native Americans would then need
to pack their bags and didimau. Islam,Xianity(in all its 2000 variations) , Buddahism, Tao, all other religions are late model imports.
Oh and BTW dont let the door hit ya on the way out.

But I am asking why the PC brigade have taken religion out of a religious festival when no-one as complained about the festival to start with!

This has much more to do with the fundiegelical xian than it does to do with those others that celebrate different Holy Days
during the same time period ( as I recall there are 24 Holy Day celebrations in the period between mid Dec. and Mid Jan.).

It is and always has been the fundiegelicals that rabidly insist that theirs is the only way,the only "reason for the Season".
All who have "ears to hear and eyes to see" know that this MY way or the Highway attitude is 100% pure unadulterated
Unkche.

To be fair, the ACLUS's excuse is that we live in a country full of diverse people and we should greet each other diversely. Ahem. Kiss my (location where brain is kept?) is the only greeting I give the ACLU

and so you greet anyone even if it is obvious that they dont share your myoptic beliefs with a greeting that fits your
beliefs and prejudices. You would never condecend to greet a Jew or even a Messianic Jew with a simple Shalom?
Nor I'm sure would you lower yourself to accepting( should there be anyone so crass as to extend an invitation to you)
an invitation to celebrate Hannukah right?

since there is 11 million Mexicans

most Illegal.

They have 4 or 5 of their own independance days to celebrate. They have declared "independance " from (as I recall) France,
Spain, The HRE, and the Catholic Church, and several regimes. To what end? They still have the most corrupt Government,
Federal,State , and, Local police forces known in modern history. Bribery, theft, graft are cultural (if you can find any uniquely
mexican culture left)accepteds. Even the Mexican President stole his name from a fictional hero.

Grey..

and so you greet anyone even if it is obvious that they dont share your myoptic beliefs with a greeting that fits your
beliefs and prejudices. You would never condecend to greet a Jew or even a Messianic Jew with a simple Shalom?
Nor I'm sure would you lower yourself to accepting( should there be anyone so crass as to extend an invitation to you)
an invitation to celebrate Hannukah right?

If, that is if.. you where to look at more then the last few threads, or knew me at all.. you would know full well I am agnostic. As I have said earlier in the post. If I say Merry Christmas to a Jew, and the Jew replies Shalom ... ok? ... will the world end because I told the Jew to have a Merry Christmas?

Originally posted by HarpStrings
Why not give your boy you rather than a creepy fictitious character? It's interesting in itself that some parents would rather give the glory of gift giving to a fat man dressed in a red suit who never even moved his rear end to purchase one single present under the tree. And the worst part is that probably that same lie was fed to you as a child until, 1. you were old enough to figure it out on your own or 2. you were too old for that lie, so you were given the "Santas not real talk"

Don't you see how bad traditions are accepted? Will the chain ever be broken? It starts with you and it's better to build on trust (if you simply cannot do away with Christmas) rather than a lie.

When my son was born we discussed not going through the whole Santa routine ... same concept since it's "lying" and we felt there was no benefit obtained from the routine. We never discussed Santa or told him that Santa was coming with gifts or any of that ... however when he was 4 his gift was a tricycle ... on Christmas morning (which happens to be his bday) as he sat there on his gift smiling away I asked him who he thought got him that present. With a smile on his face he answered "Santa brought it". Obviously he learned of Santa through all the commercialization of Christmas.

Who am I to take that joy away from him? The majority of his gifts are from mom&dad or relatives and there's one gift from Santa every year. I sure don't think his world will fall apart when he realizes that Santa is just an imaginary figure. I remember being 6 or 7 when I realized it was all a game ... it didn't have much of an impact on my joy of the holidays.

Greywolf, like I said earlier, if the Archbishop is agreeing with me, my view cant be that myopic can it? And as I also said, if you live in the States you wont notice the sudden impact that 'glorious multiculturism' brings. It was only yesterday it seems that everything in the UK was normal British life. Now you cant enjoy anything anymore without stepping on someones toes!

If you want to celebrate Winterval, good for you. Me I am gonna have a moan. OK? Heres a Christmas picture for you Greywolf...HO HO HO!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

You're blaming a Supreme Court decision on the ACLU???

Blame the Supreme Court for their decision.

i blame both. the founding fathers had no intention of one mans freedom from religion of interfering with everyone else's freedom of religion.

They're not exactly a bunch of impressionable children, ready to be swayed by anyone's opinion. They're interpreting the laws.

let's be honest, shall we? the supreme court, just like the other two branches, has been bought and payed for by the highest bidder. oh sure, they care about the constitution, but only when it doesnt conflict with the almighty dollar.

And prayer at a football game has WHAT to do with Christmas?

what part of "for example" did you not understand? "who stole christmas" is most certainly a government vs religion topic, and i have provided a perfect example of how separation of church and state is misinterpreted every single day.

The ACLU is only trying to give everyone equal rights as enumerated by the Constitution. Some people just don't want to share Christmas with anyone else. Too bad.

no, the aclu is trying to undermine the constitution they were chartered to protect. seperation of church and state is exactly that....separation. it is not supposed to be the government telling people when and where they cannot pray, but the government staying out of it completely.

riddle me this: why is it ok for mosques in the US to preach hatred against the US, but it is not alright for christian kids to gather on their own time before school or during lunch and pray simply because they are on school property? or to sit and read a copy of the bible during their own time?

Although as an agnostic-atheist it bothers me when people say "Merry Christmas" to me, I take it as a kind gesture. I enjoy the so-called "spirit" of Christmas, although I disagree with its origins. It also bothers me that it's only at this specific time of year that I feel that "holiday cheer" atmosphere. I would PREFER that people did not wish me a merry Christmas simply because I disagree with this holiday being celebrated in the first place, but I take little offense to it and would never wish to take away peoples' RIGHTS to say it.

riddle me this: why is it ok for mosques in the US to preach hatred against the US,

for the same reason it OK for ferd felps and his band of inbreds to protest and disrupt the funerals of fallen Military Personell, the vary people who died to protect their
"right to protest."

but it is not alright for christian kids to gather on their own time before school or during lunch and pray simply because they are on school property? or to sit and read a copy of the bible during their own time?

IMO this situation is one brought on the christian community by themselves or more
precisely by a segment of their community, the fundievangelists. The fundievangelists
are no more or less than the jihad warriors of islam. They are the Hamas, Al Fatah,
Black September, Al Quida, etc. of the christian world. Unfortunately they are
what the Islamic world fears and fights against The modern Crusader, who's intent
is to convert the entire world by what ever means necessary. Rightly or wrongly this is the way the entire christian world is seen, much the same as all Islam
is judged by the actions of a few.

I myself am Pagan. I do not believe the situation is right or proper. However I do
believe that it might be the only viable answer to the problem.


The Problem as I see it

Schools are public institutions. Those that are charged with administering these institutions are in an unenviable position. They must make choices, all of which
adversely affect some portion of the students. And they must make these choices
while staying within the constraints of a budget, federal "days attended" guidelines,
and seperation issues.
So how do YOU solve this thorny problem on just the issue you mentioned?

Simple you say, allow all beliefs the same right to their beliefs, clubs,meetings, reading their "holy books" during the individuals private/personal time. easy right?

Only That aint gonna happen
The fundievangelists will piss and moan and scream and weep and wail and gnash their teeth and proclaim from the highest
mountain ( or fundie leaning newspaper which ever is closer) that they are right
and all else is of Satan and has no place in this xian nation. They will file law suits,
and force school districts to waste precious funds defending their decisions.

Option 2. allow no activities at the institution that has even a remote association
with any belief system. The result? Fundievangelists file lawsuits, cost districts
time and money defending themselves. either way the education looses.

This is just one " religion" based issue that every administrator in every school district in every state in this country deals with on a daily basis. This does not even scratch the surface of holidays,school productions, other activities, class room presentations, conflicts in teaching styles, content, where to draw the line between
history and evangelizing. Where do you seperate the Crusades between political and
religious movement when the period in question was a period in which religion was politics? Do you just not teach this period of history?

What is the Be all End all answer?



[edit on 15-11-2006 by greywolf1]

If the creator was as the fundiegelicals say S/He is he would have forseen this situation
and created all humans the same. There would be no Italians,no Germans, no Arabs,
no Jews, no Native Americans, no Pacific Islanders. All Would be the same.

I can only speak for myself but a world with out Pizza, Rouladen, Sauerbraten,Kielbasa,
Bratwurst, linguini with clam sauce, Poi, Curry, Moo Goo, Ginger, Tamales, Guiness,
Spaten, Modelo Negra, Cragenmore, Glencrankie, Haggas, and the list goes on and on.
Nor can I imagine a world without the diverse people that I have had the pleasure of knowing and talking with. Variety truely is the Spice of life.

Originally posted by Mcphisto
I didn t notice your question, but heres my answer. I shall enjoy Christmas in a good Christian style, Church before presents etc etc. Explain to my nipper what its all about, baby in the manger, 3 wise men etc. No-one is preventing me, my family or anyone else from enjoying Christmas, whatever religion!

And if I have the Archbishop of Canterbury agreeing with me, I cant be far off the mark can I?

How about who or what GAVE christmas Here are FACTS:

December 25 is NOT the birth date of Yeshua Messiah.
You are carrying a man lying tradition if you "tell your nipper" that Yeshua was born on Dec 25.

Why not just tell your son the TRUTH???? If you cannot do away with this celebration/holiday then at least have some dignity and respect for the REAL TRUE Messiah and remove Him from it! Yeshua does not belong in that 'nativity' and I ASSURE you, that IS NOT Him in that manger. There is not one single scripture in the bible that teaches we are to celebrate the birth of Messiah, let alone in the pagan fashion.

However, there are many places in the bible that WARN against paganism and idol worship

Jer 10:1-4 1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

AND

1 Cor 10:21 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Originally posted by snafu7700
the founding fathers had no intention of one mans freedom from religion of interfering with everyone else's freedom of religion.

When you show me specifically how your freedom of religion is being interfered with, we can talk. Having other people say Happy Holidays or call a tree a Holiday Tree or not having the entire football team pray together before a game does NOT interfere with your religion. You are free to pray, go to church, worship and have a Christmas celebration full of Jesus AND Santa in your home...

i have provided a perfect example of how separation of church and state is misinterpreted every single day.

Your interpretation isn't necessarily THE RIGHT ONE. No one's stopping you from praying at the game, are they? No one's stopping ANYONE from praying. They just can't have a groupwide sanctioned prayer. Everyone is free to pray individually if they want.

it is not supposed to be the government telling people when and where they cannot pray, but the government staying out of it completely.

See above.

riddle me this: why is it ok for mosques in the US to preach hatred against the US, but it is not alright for christian kids to gather on their own time before school or during lunch and pray simply because they are on school property? or to sit and read a copy of the bible during their own time?

A mosque is a house of God (Allah). It isn't supported by the state, like a school. People are free to worship however they see fit in their church, temple or mosque.

Show me where kids can't gather and pray (without teachers). Or read the bible on their own time. I'm not saying it's not true, but I want to see the story before I comment.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Your interpretation isn't necessarily THE RIGHT ONE.

that's your opinion, and in mine, your interpretation is wrong. guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because i dont see either of us budging off of our respective lines.

A mosque is a house of God (Allah). It isn't supported by the state, like a school. People are free to worship however they see fit in their church, temple or mosque.

that must by why this particular christian church was being harrassed by the IRS because of an anti-iraq war sermon preached there:

POLITICS: Church: Anti-war sermon imperils tax status

and then, of course, there are the military chaplains who are not allowed to invoke the name of Jesus, while their counterparts may use allah's name:

Military Chaplins

Show me where kids can't gather and pray (without teachers). Or read the bible on their own time. I'm not saying it's not true, but I want to see the story before I comment.

here ya go:

Maryland School Sued for Refusing to Let Girl Read Bible
"She is in a public school where there is no religious influence. So she eats her lunch, she's taking a break, she's reading her Bible, and this school official comes up to her and says she's going to be disciplined if she doesn't stop reading it," Whitehead added.

Originally posted by snafu7700
POLITICS: Church: Anti-war sermon imperils tax status

I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about. Churches have tax-exempt status. If they get involved in politics, there's a danger of losing that. What's the problem? You have heard of the Church and State argument, have you not? You think it should be ok for churches to 'preach' politics?

and then, of course, there are the military chaplains who are not allowed to invoke the name of Jesus, while their counterparts may use allah's name:

Wrong.. From your source:

Muslim, Jewish and Roman Catholic chaplains are likewise told not to pray in the name of Allah, in Hebrew or in the name of the Trinity, he added.

Maryland School Sued for Refusing to Let Girl Read Bible

Someone in the school made a mistake and the school was sued. They used the law to set it straight. What you have cited is a case where someone (the school) screwed up and the law came in to fix it. What's your beef? That someone made a mistake? This isn't policy, this is a single case that was protected under the law. It was made right. You should be rejoicing!

It sounds to me like you're not complaining because someone stole Christmas (which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about), but that you're complaining because everyone doesn't let Christains have their way in every possible arena.

Busk up. Get used to it. This is America, where ALL religions are free to exist.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about. Churches have tax-exempt status. If they get involved in politics, there's a danger of losing that. What's the problem? You have heard of the Church and State argument, have you not? You think it should be ok for churches to 'preach' politics?

oh please, BH, if you want to debate me, at least be honest about what you have already said. here is my original post:

riddle me this: why is it ok for mosques in the US to preach hatred against the US, but it is not alright for christian kids to gather on their own time before school or during lunch and pray simply because they are on school property? or to sit and read a copy of the bible during their own time?

and here is your response:

A mosque is a house of God (Allah). It isn't supported by the state, like a school. People are free to worship however they see fit in their church, temple or mosque.

so as far as you are concerned, a mullah can preach whatever anti-american hatred he wishes, but when a minister disagrees with US policy from the pulpit, it's a violation of the separation of church and state. youre killing me with your hypocrisy.

and then, of course, there are the military chaplains who are not allowed to invoke the name of Jesus, while their counterparts may use allah's name:

Wrong.. From your source:

Muslim, Jewish and Roman Catholic chaplains are likewise told not to pray in the name of Allah, in Hebrew or in the name of the Trinity, he added.

lmao....oops, someone didnt read the whole article. here's the next paragraph:

"No Islamic chaplain has been refused to pray in the name of Allah, as far as we know. Neither has a rabbi been rebuked for making references to Hanukkah, and no Catholic priest has been rebuked for referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary."

Someone in the school made a mistake and the school was sued. They used the law to set it straight.

guess you didnt really read that one either. they are trying to use the law to set it straight. hasnt happened yet. and dont act like this is an isolated case...you know as well as i do that God has been kicked out of our schools....and people wonder where all the violence is coming from.

It sounds to me like you're not complaining because someone stole Christmas (which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about), but that you're complaining because everyone doesn't let Christains have their way in every possible arena.

once again, because you obviously didnt understand the concept the first two times....this was an EXAMPLE of how christmas has been stolen...by twisting our constitution against us.

Busk up. Get used to it. This is America, where ALL religions are free to exist.

all religions except christianity you mean. when was the last time someone told a muslim student to put down his koran? the whole country would have been horrified. but it's ok to make sure nobody is praying to christ. whatever.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." emphasis added by me.....what is so hard about that statement to understand? it doesnt say "except in schools." it doesnt say "except at football games." it doesnt say "the ten commandments shall not be posted in government buildings." it says "shall make no laws." pretty damned straight forward to me.

[edit on 15-11-2006 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by snafu7700
oh please, BH, if you want to debate me,

It's becoming pretty clear to me that I don't.

You take one instance and act as if it's US law or policy or something. You seem to be expecting perfection from something that has never been perfect and doesn't claim to be. And I'm not claiming it to be either. There are flaws. There are exceptions to the rule. You're trying to use those exceptions to prove that someone is trying to do something malevolent, when all that's happening is people are trying to push back the pushy Christians and claim some space of their own.

I support people exercising their religion wherever they want, but I don't support them forcing others to endure the state-sanctioned exercise of a particular religion.

A group-wide prayer at a football game is forcing all the non-Christians to endure it. Unless you're going to take the time to pray in every religion represented by all the people at the game, it's not right. What's so hard to understand about that?

why is it ok for mosques in the US to preach hatred against the US,

It's not ok. Show me the policy or practice that says it's ok. And I don't mean one instance. I mean show me that "it's OK". Show me that it's accepted and allowed by law.

but it is not alright for christian kids to gather on their own time before school

It IS ok. Show me the law or policy that says it's not. And I don't mean one instance. I mean show me that "it's not OK". Show me that it's not accepted by law and by school policy.

You're using ONE instance in both cases to prove your point and it's not good enough! You're using the exception to claim some sort of rule and that's not how it works.

this was an EXAMPLE of how christmas has been stolen...

Yes, ONE example. Someone is WRONG by doing this.

all religions except christianity you mean.

No, ALL religions. Christianity is the most widely-practiced, most vocal, most influential religion in this country. In my experience, people who complain about it being suppressed just want it to be the ONLY religion practiced. If you're not willing to stand up to have ALL religions freely practiced, then you're the one caught up in hypocrisy...

when was the last time someone told a muslim student to put down his koran?

I don't know but they've been suspended for wearing a head scarf andthat was wrong, just as the person who told the girl to get rid of her bible was wrong. The law protects them both.

And that one WAS school policy (dress code). I'm not sure how you can even compare ONE instance of a stupid 'school official' against the hundreds of incidents of hatred against Muslims in this country.

Your argument (which is why I'm losing all interest in this 'debate') is like saying someone drove 100 MPH by your house and that proves "it's OK". It's one specific instance where someone was in the wrong.

You have to remember that Christmas is not a Christian holiday anymore, its a national holiday for many western countries almost everyone has Christmas off whether there Christian or not. So really for the majority of people Christmas is simply a seasonal holiday and nothing more. Remember most other people have to work on there religious holiday there not lucky enough for the government to give them the day off.

Edn, you are so correct. Like it or not, Christmas has become a secular holiday for many people. People have the choice to celebrate it as religious or not, which doesn't sit well with many Christians.

I don't understand how people saying Happy Holidays or calling it a Holiday Tree takes away from one's religious celebration of the holiday. But many of the same people claim that gay marriage would somehow take away from their own marriage... So go figure...

It seems that some people just want to tell everyone else how to be. I wish people would just celebrate (or pray or read) however they feel appropriate and leave everyone else alone.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's becoming pretty clear to me that I don't.

that's funny, because i made this statement a few posts back:

Originally posted by snafu7700
that's your opinion, and in mine, your interpretation is wrong. guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because i dont see either of us budging off of our respective lines.

and yet you still keep responding. at least my argument has been consistent from the start. i do love how you can say this:

A mosque is a house of God (Allah). It isn't supported by the state, like a school. People are free to worship however they see fit in their church, temple or mosque.

and then in your very next post say this:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about. Churches have tax-exempt status. If they get involved in politics, there's a danger of losing that. What's the problem? You have heard of the Church and State argument, have you not? You think it should be ok for churches to 'preach' politics?

yet when i ask you about your difference of opinion between muslim clerics and christian ministers, you attempt to ignore you ever said either. how convenient.

I support people exercising their religion wherever they want, but I don't support them forcing others to endure the state-sanctioned exercise of a particular religion.

again, what state sanctioned exercise is that? until the government made it against the law to pray at football games, therewas no state sanction one way or the other. congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religions. and yet they make hundreds of them that prohibit the free exercise thereof. you want to talk about hypocrisy? that's about as big as it gets.

A group-wide prayer at a football game is forcing all the non-Christians to endure it.

it's not forcing anything upon anybody. nobody has to listen. riddle me this: why is it alright for the US congress to have religious prayers before each session, but no prayer before football games. hypocrisy again.

Unless you're going to take the time to pray in every religion represented by all the people at the game, it's not right. What's so hard to understand about that?

which has happened many times. this law stems not from one religion being biased against another, but from an atheist who decided his freedoms were being pounced upon because he didnt want to hear the prayer. forget the fact that no one was forcing him, or anyone else to participate.

It's not ok. Show me the policy or practice that says it's ok. And I don't mean one instance. I mean show me that "it's OK". Show me that it's accepted and allowed by law.

i've been providing all the sources, how bout you go find one example of a muslim cleric in the US being called to the carpet for the hatred he's been preaching. there are literally hundreds of instances of christians being attacked for what they say or preach, but i have as of yet to see a mullah (who wasnt directly involved in a terrorist attack such as the blind sheik) threatened with any sort of action against him for his sermons of hate.

You're using ONE instance in both cases to prove your point and it's not good enough! You're using the exception to claim some sort of rule and that's not how it works.

oh for crying out loud. it's one more source than you've provided, isnt it?

christian student reprimanded for views on homosexuality

you'll notice that the gay person involved was not reprimanded for the shirt promoting his way of life.

principal suspended

for refusing to attend a veteran's day ceremony in which prayer was not allowed. how much more "state sanctioned" can you get? no one was forced to participate in prayer before footbally games, but everyone is forced to participate in non-prayer? again, hypocrisy in action.

i have seen at least one hundred instances of students being disciplined for there faith, as i am sure you have. i've been providing all the sources here.....you want to prove me wrong go do your own source hunting.

No, ALL religions. Christianity is the most widely-practiced, most vocal, most influential religion in this country. In my experience, people who complain about it being suppressed just want it to be the ONLY religion practiced. If you're not willing to stand up to have ALL religions freely practiced, then you're the one caught up in hypocrisy...

exactly where did i say that other religions dont have the right to practice freely? again, you attempt to twist the facts without actually answering the question. i am showing that only the christian faith is under persecution in the united states. all other religions seem to fall under freedom of speech or freedom to worship, but not christianity. in fact, islam is more protected than any other, because the post 9/11 government is deathly afraid of "racial profiling."

Your argument (which is why I'm losing all interest in this 'debate') is like saying someone drove 100 MPH by your house and that proves "it's OK".

It's one specific instance where someone was in the wrong.

how can you lose interest in a debate you arent participating in? you continue to ignore all the points i make, and refuse to acknowledge your own hypocrisy. i've provided many sources throughout this thread to your zero. if you want a debate, come at me with facts, and have the courage to address your own shortcomings. otherwise, as i have mentioned three times now, we can simply agree to disagree.

Originally posted by snafu7700
i do love how you can say this:

A mosque is a house of God (Allah). It isn't supported by the state, like a school. People are free to worship however they see fit in their church, temple or mosque.

I said that because you were comparing a mosque to a school.

yet when i ask you about your difference of opinion between muslim clerics and christian ministers, you attempt to ignore you ever said either.

I didn't ignore anything. I asked you to prove your accusation against Muslim clerics. I don't owe you a response to a baseless accusation. I can't respond until you can show me that this happens and is sanctioned or otherwise protected or allowed. You're making the accusations, it's up to you to provide the sources.

Originally posted by snafu7700
why is it alright for the US congress to have religious prayers before each session, but no prayer before football games. hypocrisy again.

At least we can agree on that. But it's not ME being hypocritical. It's the government. I don't think prayer has any place in Congressional sessions either.

this law stems not from one religion being biased against another, but from an atheist

You are incorrect again, sir. That case was brought by a Catholic and a Mormon. And you wonder why I ask you for sources for your accusations???

On the Prayer at Football Issue

The Santa Fe controversy began four years ago when two anonymous families, one Catholic and one Mormon, filed a suit in federal court arguing that prayers before football games violate the First Amendment's separation of church and state.
...
When public school officials turn over the school's microphone to broadcast a prayer to those in attendance for an official school event, the brief argues, the line is crossed from private expression to state sponsorship.

Groups joining Americans United on the brief include: the American Jewish Congress, the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, the Council on Religious Freedom, Hadassah, the Interfaith Alliance, the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, National PEARL, People For the American Way Foundation, Soka Gakkai International-USA and the Unitarian Universalist Association.

Read More About the Reasoning of the Case Here

i've been providing all the sources, how bout you go find one example of a muslim cleric in the US being called to the carpet for the hatred he's been preaching.

You must first prove your accusation against Muslim clerics. I'm not at all sure this is happening. How can I prove that they're being called to the carpet when I'm not convinced they're "preaching hatred" as you say? Maybe they're not being called to the carpet because they're not doing what you claim.

christian student reprimanded for views on homosexuality

But he wasn't suspended for his views on homosexuality, but for the bible verse. From your source:

These cases provide the Court an ideal opportunity to clarify an increasingly muddled area of constitutional law.

As I said before, it's not perfect. And I don't agree with the suspension. It's a free speech issue, imo.

you'll notice that the gay person involved was not reprimanded for the shirt promoting his way of life.

That's because religion wasn't involved on his T-shirt.

principal suspended
for refusing to attend a veteran's day ceremony in which prayer was not allowed.

Because his attendance was MANDATORY!

everyone is forced to participate in non-prayer?

No... He was required to go to the event and didn't go (whatever his reasons) so he got in trouble for it.

i have seen at least one hundred instances of students being disciplined for there faith, as i am sure you have.

I have seen it and I disagree with it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it's not like the law supports it. That's all. It's happens. It's not right. But it happens.

i am showing that only the christian faith is under persecution in the united states.

No, you're not showing it. You're trying to make it look like that, but you're falling short. Yes, it happens, but not only to Christians! Every group is persecuted at one time or another. All religions, genders, races, and sexual varieties. I submit that you're just uber-sensitive to Christian issues.

Like Christmas being "stolen"... There's plenty of Christmas for everyone! No one is taking it from the Christians. If someone were "stealing Christmas" from the Christians, they'd be left without Christmas. But they still have it, so no one "stole" it.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

I'm just going to clear this up right here and now.

Who stole christmas? My sources say it was the grinch. Don't worry, he'll bring it back as long as you make sure to sing.


Seriously though........ Nobody has stolen christmas. Christmas is still widely available for everyone who cares to enjoy it.

I'm so sick of the whining. Look around, I'd say christians have it pretty dang good.

I think it's hilarious that some Christians actually get angry over this. No one rejoices more, come Christmas-time, than the retail stores who peddle their crap wrapped in red and green. The "holy" day is used as an excuse to skip work and school. Cable TV runs 24-hour Xmas specials and their ratings sky-rocket (The college football bowl-season, another money-based American holiday runs right through Xmas). Children wait for the day in anticipation of all the expensive presents they're going to get... the little brats even get upset when they don't get what they ordered.

This being America, it's not really a surprise but Christmas is basically just like every other holiday... money, money, money. I'm not saying that everyone celebrates it like this.... but I personally don't feel it's any big loss if Christmas truly IS stolen. Good riddance, if that's the Christmas that we have to have shoved in our face every year.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by firebat]