The Soul Vs. The Spirit, page 1

posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 03:45 PM

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Soul Vs. Spirit
By. SpeakerofTruth
Originally posted here: [link to www.ilovephilosophy.com]

In an age whene there is much confusion between soul and spirit, it is incumbent upon those who know to divulge the difference. It is also incumbent upon the mouth of a philosopher to speak the truth.

The book of Ecclesiates is quite explicit in its insinuation that "The soul doth die with the body." Such insinuations have led many to believe that there is but this life and this life alone.

However, this fallacy is based upon a misconception.It is a concept that not only pervades science, but one that also pervades amongst believers.

It is both a fallacy of semantic and concepyualization. In a world where Rhodes scholars ask what is meant by the word "is," perhaps we shouldn't be surprised. Semantics is outside the scope of this essay, just knowing that the confusion over soul and spirit is a semantic confusion should suffice.

Soul and spirit are not the same thing. Repeat. The soul and spirit are not the same thing.

Before I get to deep into this, think about the mind and what actually animates the body. Does the mind animate the body, or is the body animated by an exterior force? If the mind is the exterior force, then why do thoughts radiate from the inside, outward?

There is no substitute for the glee after realization that soul & spirit are not interchangeable. My first realization of it was when I was pondering the age old quips of "The soul doth die with the body" and "There is no rememberance in the grave."

The first thing that needs to be realized is what was going on when these quips were uttered from the writer thereof. The Jews and egyptians were in constant conflict. The Jews, naturally, were quite opposed to any Egyptian doctrine.

What exactly did the Egyptians believe when "The soul of the body" and "There is no rememberance in the grave" were uttered? Well, the Egyptians believed that the spirit came to reanimate the body after death. Now, read the quotes. Think about what they are saying in relation to the Egyptians.

The egyptians labeled the spirit "Ka." The "Ka" was said to remain connected to the body after death, according to the Egyptians. The two quotes that I refer to is a rebuttal of Egyptian belief.

Now to understand that "The soul doth die with the body," one has to understand what the soul is. The soul is not "The breath of life;" that label is designated to the spirit.

The soul is the carnal mind of man. It is connected to our emotions, physical feelings,desires. The soul is what causes man to remain within the matrix of materialism.

When one is angry, the soul or carnal mind is what causes one to display anger. Most likely, the Egyptians mistook the soul to be the spirit of man.
Even in this day and age,we connect the carnal mind,our thoughts,feelings, emotions, et cetera, with spirit. Why? That's the ruling opinion of the day. We also connect mind to consciousness which is another fallacy.

The soul does indeed die with the body. When the body dies, our emotions die therewith. The spirit has no need for emotion. Emotion is the product of gross material.

The soul is the carnal mind, which is the originator of sin. When the body dies, the spirit fluffs off the carnal mind. The soul is in need of sin because gross material existence is immersed in sin.

The spirit or "breath of life" is eternal. It is the animating animator. It comes from the very creator that sparked the universe in primal existence. The spirit, unlike the soul, has no need for emotion, desire or sinfulness.

Now, it's important to explore the concept of soul and spirit in more depth to really understand. It would be so easy to just say that the soul is the carnal mind and the spirit is "The breath of life." That, however, is only a preliminary understanding.

To really understand the soul, we muct go back to the beginning. We all know the story in Genesis of adam and Eve. We all know the mortal sin of Adam and Eve eating of the "forbidden" fruit. What this "forbidden" fruit was is a whole other issue.

Now, from the time Adam and Eve left the "garden," humanity has developed a soul. The original sin is what originally trapped man in the matrix. The soul is an extension of the matrix in which we live.

What is on the outside is a reflection of what is going on within the soul. The spirit has no influence upon the physical matrix whatsoever. It can't because the spirit is not a product of the physical matrix; the soul is.

So, how does the spirit animate the body if it has no influence in the physical matrix? Only by the will of he who took upon himself a "strange flesh," does the spirit animate the body. Only through the spirit's will does the body move.

The physical matrix does not have a buffer to block the will of the spirit. However, the spirit only has the will to animate the body within the matrix, nothing more.

So, if the spirit is not of the physical matrix, why the interest in animating the body? Simple. The spirit elected to take on a "strange flesh." Once the spirit elected to take on this "strange flesh," it became the animating animator.

So what does all of this mean? It means that life is eternal. It means that death is illusion. Since death only exists within the physical matrix,and the physical matrix is an illusion, death is an illusion.

Peace,Love and Light,

Tamahu

posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 04:31 PM

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Greetings SpeakerofTruth

The KA of the Ancient Khemetians is the Astral Body.

amirfatir.tripod.com...

...The soul has seven divisions that the Egyptians called the khab, khaibit, ka, ab, shekem, khu and Ba.

The khab is the gross physical body. The khaibit is the molecular body that's sometimes called the animal spirit. It is this gooey type of substance - sybolized as "clay" in some scriptures - that's responsive to astrological influences.

The ka is the personality or pattern of habitual emotional, physical and mental traits people mistake for their selves. The ka is indicated by our rising signs in astrology and is sometimes called the astral double.

The Ab is man's moral (mental) self. It is meant to dominate the khaibit animal spirit.

The shekem is the potential omnipotence within human beings. Shekem power has to be cultivated via spiritual initiation.

The khu is the latent omniscient faculty within people. It has to be called out of dormancy via spiritual initiation.

The Ba (atem, atman) is the world soul, the one being who permeates all existence. This is where God resides in (wo)man: "I am in my father and my father is in me." When consciousness reaches the Ba plane one experiences unity with God and all things. The Ba experience is a prerequisete for unity and peace in the world. Until one has experienced oneness (Tauhid), then unity is but a slogan or a theory. After the Ba experience, unity becomes the reality that underlies all illusory separateness and division.

The fusion of Ka, Ab and Ba is symbolized by the meccan Ka'aba.

If a person is unaware of the seven spirit divisions, their function and natures, he is lacking a knowledge of self.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that a savage was a person who's lost the knowledge of his self and was "living a beast life."

By that definitiion, anyone who's lost the knowledge of the Ba (atem) is a savage...

The Spirit is Kether, Chokmah, and Binah(known in Christianity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

The Soul is Chesed, Geburah, and Tiphereth.

The personality is Netzach, Hod(Astral Body or KA), Yesod and Malkuth.

And when the lunar personality is made Solar through the Art of Alchemy/Karma-Mudra, it too is Christified and converted into Soul.

But of course all in existence, including the Soul and personality, is really Spirit at different levels of vibration.

Regards

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 05:33 PM

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A very important topic, Speaker….a good thing to discuss presently.

If I may offer my understandings – for the sake of comparison and discussion?

This comes from both the bible as well as what I know of our body’s physiology.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
~Genesis 2:7

All three vital principles of humanity are mentioned in the above verse: body, soul, and spirit…

1. dust = fleshly body
2. God’s breath of life = spirit
3. (these combined somehow to make man become a ‘living soul.’)

Corresponding to the Hebrew:
1. chay= living flesh, fresh plant, living thing, living creature
2. neshamah = divine inspiration, intellect, vital principle
3. nephesh = a breathing creature, animal vitality; heart, mind, mortality, person, self

Personally, I perceive ‘soul’ not as defined by emotions (although surely shaped by same) but rather as ‘memory.’ Which is essentially one’s awareness of ‘self’ and one’s ‘being-ness.’
It is written:

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.
~Leviticus 17:11

And remember God told Adam:

In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it you were taken: for dust you are, and unto dust you shall return.
~Genesis 3:19

And to Cain:

And he said, What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood cries unto me from the ground.
~Genesis 4:10

And again, in Leviticus:

And whatsoever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunts and catches any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
~Leviticus 17:13

My own conclusion is that the soul is contained in the blood, somehow – when one’s life blood is drained, all knowledge and memory of ‘self’ ceases – hence the soul dies. And the life-giving spirit returns to God from whence it came….

Our bodies don’t retain our souls in death – essentially and in the simplest sense it would seem our ‘being-ness’ merges back into the waters, the seas….

Each soul born is unique – a product which is a combination of the ‘dust’ly characteristics of human parents enlivened by the vitality of the Divine Father….

GreatTech

posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 07:17 PM

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SpeakerofTruth, excellent topic, good discussion.

Three definitions:

1) Body: temporary existence; sinful nature; an agent of the Holy Spirit for instructional purposes.
2) Soul: permanent existence; sinless nature; an agent of the Holy Spirit.
3) Spirit: modifier of the body and soul; level of modification based on one's body and soul relationship with the Holy Spirit; the active force of one's body and soul.

Our relationship with God and eternal life is based on the soul to body ratio of our daily acts. Only when we eliminate bodily desires does our soul receive the Holy Spirit and we can see God. As we age, we are continually being taught to avoid bodily desires, and fully accept God's Holy Spirit.

dbrandt

posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 08:42 PM

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A person's soul is their mind, will, emotions and intellect.

A person's spirit is the ability to relate to and have a relationship(and all that entails) with God.

It was Adam and Eve's spirit that died when they disobeyed God's instructions. With a dead spirit that affected their soulish qualities and decisions, this in turn affected how they lived out the actions of their body.

Having a dead spirit is what is passed along to those of us born after them.

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 10:01 AM

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Annie, once again, I think you and I are in agreement for the most part. It's interetsing how some seem to want to clump the soul and spirit as being the same. As I explicitly stated in my essay, I think that there is a very real difference.

While the soul of man has no permanence, the spirit does. Now,

Queenannie wrote:

1. dust = fleshly body
2. God’s breath of life = spirit
3. (these combined somehow to make man become a ‘living soul.’)

I suppose that basically affirms what I have said just in less detail. I think that in the spiritual realm one has a "universal" consciousness that is not necessarily based on identity. People always say, "Well, what about self." The self, at least in my opinion, has no objective reality in the spiritual realm.

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 11:04 AM

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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Annie, once again, I think you and I are in agreement for the most part.

I do enjoy reading all your posts - because you have a very different way of saying things than I do - but underneath I perceive much of the same ethereal truth (something which will always defy precise verbal expression, I am certain).

That's what's wonderful about man being individual as a soul on the earthly plane - so that at a certain point in our respective development we can each (all of us - and I mean ALL) sing our particular little song in the way we can best make melody and harmony according to what we've known and each singer will be heard by at least one listener (and really - what else could be desired? Just one to hear is a blessing given for a blessing received).

A lot of people speak about 'tongues' but what I understand from what I've known is that (these days, at least) 'speaking in tongues' is more like being able to hear the spirit in the words of various souls....souls speak languages but the spirit speaks truth. And so that is the 'interpretation.' I hope that makes sense....

The spirit doesn't need to keep telling itself the same thing over and over - it doesn't talk to hear itself talking - it speaks in order to wake the parts that still sleep....the souls that have not yet found their part of the Great Song.

While the soul of man has no permanence, the spirit does.

Yes. The book of Ecclesiastes is one of the richest in deeper knowledge in the canon, IMO. Along with Job and then Psalms is hidden prophesy of an accuracy and caliber on the same level as Isaiah...I digress...

But I find this to be profound:

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
~Ecclesiastes 3:18-22

proving your words, above, as reliable and sound....the key to understanding the non-permanence of the human soul (and hence the true nature of real 'death') is understanding 'the nature of the beast' that we all are manifested within at birth! This unlocked much of Revelation for me, too – who the ‘beast’ is and what the ‘image of the beast’ truly represents….

The purest translation of the word 'vanity' is 'emptiness' in the same sense of something being 'desolate and void.' In other words, devoid of living spirit.

For an image is like a reflection and a likeness is like a picture ( a photo or portrait) and so in Genesis, man is made in the image of the likeness of God and I perceive this as a ‘photo’ of God’s expression looking into a mirror (darkly) to perceive itself.

When the likeness is replaced with an ‘express image’ (which is the real thing, not a photo) then the mirror becomes a crystal clear prism and the rainbow is seen (7 spirits, 7 candlesticks, 7 heads of 7 assemblies) and then we can understand what God meant for each of us in regard to our mutual creation and present state of existence.

Of course the mirror must remain for the mirror is what causes the permanency and perpetuity (as well as protecting our ‘spiritual’ eye from being blinded by His light!)

I suppose that basically affirms what I have said just in less detail.

Wow, you have made my day, dear friend! You mean I (even I?) have been the one to actually condense with clarity rather than ‘make a short story long?’

Well, wonders never cease.

I think that in the spiritual realm one has a "universal" consciousness that is not necessarily based on identity.

Yes, I think that, as well. There is no ‘identity’ beyond the earthly realm, I believe – it is not necessary – although I do feel that there is a place at which individuality is retained and that, somehow, is the true nature of ‘eternal life’ and ‘saving of the soul.’ We don’t retain the ‘sinful’ parts of ‘self’ (which is ego and is that which defines us, in our mind, as an entity separate from the ALL which is the body of CHRIST and therefore the manifestation of God’s Spirit which is love, unity, and truth in bare naked glory). Unity and identity cause much confusion as to the nature of both Christ and God.

I think that some souls can tap into the level of ‘knowing’ that is the topmost of three levels (like on Noah’s ark) – yet their understanding remains interpreted by the second level – these are what most call psychics – and then there are those who interpret the third level with third level understanding – these are what I call ‘mystics’ and our best example is Paul….although certainly all true prophets are mystics (because how can there be interpretation of God’s mind to the human understanding unless there is one with feet on the earth and mind in the clouds, so to speak?) They mystery of God is a mystical understanding that can only be revealed in a certain manner...

I think, though, that until the times of Christ, there were very few that really understood what they were interpreting – they had their mind in the cloud, but God had his hand over their eyes, so to speak.

People always say, "Well, what about self." The self, at least in my opinion, has no objective reality in the spiritual realm.

Right. ‘Self’ is what has to die. Self is the body of sin – self only seeks for self (even when convincing it self that it is doing for others) and it is self which deceives self and which attempts to glorify self. ‘Self’ is the natural man which must, by necessity, come first (for it is the fertile field that the seeds need to grow), as Paul said…but I think that self is the first birth and the second death…and the first resurrection is the birth of the spirit within the soul….and the idea of time and space as being linear begins to fade and disappear.

So that when the soul (self) dies, there really isn’t any change noted….as far as being-ness is concerned and also just organic life…but when we die (in the natural) before having this transformation, our blood goes back into the soil- the potter’s field!…and our memories and sense of self are lost back into the ‘dead’ sea (for I perceive that the saltiness of the sea is the physical manifestation of ethereal beingness that no longer ‘is’)….but salt is the 5th element on earth just as the human spirit must surely be the 5th generation on the heavenly plane.

I’m getting pretty deep….but what else is there to do in such a subject? :shk:

God bless and keep you, my friend!

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 12:06 PM

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Wow,annie,

I don't know what to say. Your theory about salt in the sea really intrigued me and refers me back to the verse that states "You are the salt of the earth." Wow, I have to say I am speechless.

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 12:42 PM

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Well, not intending to 'rub salt on your wound' (I couldn't resist that stupid pun which isn't even relevant,
)...

allow me just to cite a couple of other verses for you that you can consider privately and at your leisure, for yourself, in regard to the 'salt' concept (because it is significant, I believe, and helps to clarify a lot - at least it did for me).

And every sacrifice of your food offering shall you season with salt. And you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your food offering. You shall offer salt with all your offerings.
~Leviticus 2:13

All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the sons of Israel offer to Jehovah, I have given you and your sons and your daughters with you, by a law forever. It is a covenant of salt forever before Jehovah to you and to your seed with you.
~Numbers 18:19

And the men of the city said to Elisha, Behold, please, the location of this city is pleasant, as my lord sees. But the waters are bad, and the ground is barren. And he said, Bring me a new jar and put salt in it. And they brought to him. And he went forth to the spring of the waters and threw the salt in there, and said, So says Jehovah, I have healed these waters. There shall not be any more death or barrenness from there. And the waters were healed to this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spoke.
~2 Kings 2:19-22

Should you not know that Jehovah, the God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David forever, to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?
~2 Chronicles 13:5

And that which they have need of, both young bulls and rams and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of Heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the choice of the priests at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail, so that they may offer sacrifices of sweet savors to the God of Heaven, and pray for the life of the king and of his sons.
~Ezra 6:9-10

Can that which has no taste be eaten without salt? Or is there taste in the white of an egg?
~Job 6:6

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good; but if the salt becomes saltless, with what will you season? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.
~Mark 9:49-50

Let your speech be always with grace, having been seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
~Colossians 4:6

Does a fountain send forth at the same hole the sweet and the bitter? Can the fig tree, my brothers, bear olive berries; or a vine, figs? So no fountain can yield both salt water and fresh.
~James 3:11-12

I know that seems like a lot of disjointed information - but if you note the passages, they will fit in, over the long haul.

Consider the idea of 'bitter waters' being not salty, but rather healed by salt - and the bitterness comes from 'wormwood' which is the same bitter water that is used in testing the fidelity of a married woman according to the laws of Leviticus...

And the saltiness of the 'great sea' or the 'Salt Sea' (which is the dead sea) seems to be the accumulation of spiritual investment which returns to the ground(water) each time the life of the soul (blood) is returned to the ground....the actual spirit returns to God, of course, but there seems to be the idea of a 'residue' which is retained in the 'field' for future harvest (the fields are white and ready for harvest?)

Thinking of that, then, there is this verse:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
~Revelation 21:1

And also the 43rd and 47th chapters of Ezekiel, also....

Even though there is much unresolved controversy regarding the painting of the Last Supper by Leonardo, I found something in it that is potentially very significant to this whole symbolic message - there is an overturned salt cellar on the table in front of Judas Iscariot - and remember the 'potter's field' that the blood money he earned with treason purchased?

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 01:01 PM

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Originally posted by queenannie38
Consider the idea of 'bitter waters' being not salty, but rather healed by salt - and the bitterness comes from 'wormwood' which is the same bitter water that is used in testing the fidelity of a married woman according to the laws of Leviticus...

And the saltiness of the 'great sea' or the 'Salt Sea' (which is the dead sea) seems to be the accumulation of spiritual investment which returns to the ground(water) each time the life of the soul (blood) is returned to the ground....the actual spirit returns to God, of course, but there seems to be the idea of a 'residue' which is retained in the 'field' for future harvest (the fields are white and ready for harvest?)

Thinking of that, then, there is this verse:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
~Revelation 21:1

And also the 43rd and 47th chapters of Ezekiel, also....

Even though there is much unresolved controversy regarding the painting of the Last Supper by Leonardo, I found something in it that is potentially very significant to this whole symbolic message - there is an overturned salt cellar on the table in front of Judas Iscariot - and remember the 'potter's field' that the blood money he earned with treason purchased?

You know, Queenie, I just read your post and what keeps standing out in my mind is

seems to be the accumulation of spiritual investment which returns to the ground(water) each time the life of the soul (blood) is returned to the ground....the actual spirit returns to God, of course, but there seems to be the idea of a 'residue' which is retained in the 'field' for future harvest (the fields are white and ready for harvest?)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ancient "pagans" believe that blood helped the harvests? If so, do you think that they may have somehow been indoctrinated with some of the principles of the Old Testament,despite what the "church" tells us about the "pagans"?

Also, you state

there is an overturned salt cellar on the table in front of Judas Iscariot - and remember the 'potter's field' that the blood money he earned with treason purchased?

Couldn't that represent not only Christ's electing to be "sacrificed" for the sake of man, but also Judas' mandatory role in the crucifixion? Remember, Judas returns the thirty pieces of silver and asks for Christ's deliverance, when it wasn't given, Judas hung himself. I just thought I would throw those thoughts out there.

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ancient "pagans" believe that blood helped the harvests?

You know, I have no idea if that is so, or not- but I think I'll look into it.

If so, do you think that they may have somehow been indoctrinated with some of the principles of the Old Testament,despite what the "church" tells us about the "pagans"?

Indeed it is very possible; and my personal stance on that whole 'pagan' and 'church' thing is that there is but one truth (just as there is but ONE God) and although I do not understand the mechanisms or the principles behind it, I fully believe (from studying so many cultures, religions, mythologies, and etc. etc. etc. over the course of 30 something years of being an addict of self-education and information) that there is but symbolic system which serves as the means of communication between God's non-verbal perfect mind and man's mind (clouded with language and cultural 'barriers' and differences)....and at the root of ALL of it, the archetypes and symbols remain consistent and true - without fail...(so far as I've studied which is actually quite an extensive length)....

And although I was baptized with water in a non-denominational christian church (the same one - the ONLY one - which I attended until the age of 18 - and have not attended any church in the 20 years between then and now) I have never truly aligned myself with any religion whatsoever - never even nominally - just by personal conviction - and I don't have any personal bitterness toward any or all churches or religions of any sort (aside from the overall general principle I now have about all such things being principally of man and not God - therefore being inherently prone to deceive and mislead but not purposefully or any one specifically more than another)...

and this has allowed me to examine these things from a totally 'outside' point of view - I don't have any certain loyalty I feel I must defend (my only loyalty is to God alone) or justify as far as doctrine or personal method or belief of 'salvation,' etc...

I truly think God guided me toward having a truly open mind for His purpose and it has given me a broad view which is amazing! All things come together at the root - once all the delusion falls away there is but one tree planted firmly in one rock and there is but one life and one truth and one future....one race and no true religion...

So anything and everything can be applied - although I have never varied my practice of applying all things against the plumbline provided by God (both living and written WORD) - what doesn't line up with the bible falls away - and really, there isn't anything that doesn't fit once it's all 'naked.' I hope that makes sense - why I expounded such I'm not sure, unless just to give you insight on my personal perspective.

Couldn't that represent not only Christ's electing to be "sacrificed" for the sake of man, but also Judas' mandatory role in the crucifixion? Remember, Judas returns the thirty pieces of silver and asks for Christ's deliverance, when it wasn't given, Judas hung himself. I just thought I would throw those thoughts out there.

YES! The way I see it, Judas also gave a sacrifice - one that most self-righteous people despise as something to be hated and even regretted - cursing a gift given under the guise of treason....but Christ himself said He chose the 12 and one of them was a devil....

Remember Judah's idea (in Genesis) to sell Joseph to the Midianites instead of kill him? For 20 pieces of silver (which was the going price of a slave - inflation increased it to 30 by the time Judas did the same to Jesus)....

But because of Judah's treachery and envy of his brother, the whole clan was saved from certain death....and there was abundant forgiveness in Joseph's heart - he knew God isn't always initially and superficially 'good' and 'beneficial' in His outworkings for our overall and eventual permanent good...

I have always felt a terrible sadness for Judas - even as a little kid I felt so sorry for him....in recent years I have come to understand that not only is he not subject to anyone's judgment or condemnation (but God's) but also that he also gave HIS LIFE for our lives....

There are two goats taken for sacrifice in the temple ritual on the Day of Atonement (in the OT)....one is killed as a sacrifice for atonement - but the other one is sent alive into the wilderness after all the 'sins' of the people are officially placed upon his head by the priest....

There is both a sin offering and a scapegoat....

And the phrase 'hung himself' is rather ambiguous in the Greek - because in the Hebrew, being 'hung on a tree' was something usually done after being stoned for transgressing the law - basically being impaled upon a tree - and all are 'cursed' who are hung upon a tree....I have often wondered at the symbology with that - as far as it relates to Christ's crucifixion.

Also - there are two different accounts of Judas's death in the NT: Matthew 27:3-10 (and notice, Judas 'repented himself' and regardless of what the temple officials said or believed, they DID take and do something with that money!) and Acts 1:16-20 (which seems to imply that 'this man' whose bowels burst asunder in the field was actually Judas)...

Regarding what I said about the account in Matthew, remember Caiphas's words when planning to kill Christ:

And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
~John 11:49-52

This points right back to the OT version of the same story in a previous version (Judah and Joseph)....

Judah and Judas are the same name, and the meaning is: the praise of the Lord; confession (same as Judah, Jew, Judaea, Jude, Judea, Judith)

And somewhere, in the midst of all this, the principle of the 'kinsman redeemer' comes into play, although I have no certain words to communicate it, as of yet...

Tamahu

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Annie, once again, I think you and I are in agreement for the most part. It's interetsing how some seem to want to clump the soul and spirit as being the same.

Not sure if you referring to what I've posted here, when I said that All is Spirit at various levels of vibration.

Allow me to illustrate something about this(commentary in parenthesis):

The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah

...You must known that Christ(Spirit) is not an individual.

The Cosmic Christ(Spirit) is impersonal, universal, and is
beyond individuality, personality, beyond the “I.”

Yet, Christ is a cosmic force that can express Himself
through any human being who is properly prepared
(She/He who has Built the Soul within themselves:
"With Patience ye shall possess thy Souls").

Once, the Christ expressed Himself through the
great Master Jeshua Ben Pandira, who is known in the
physical world as the Master Jesus of Nazareth. The
Christ also expressed Himself through many other
Masters.

Christ is a latent cosmic substance within each
atom of the Infinite. Christ is the substance of truth.
Christ is truth and life.

A human being is Christified when the Christ
substance is assimilated physically, psychologically
and spiritually. Then, the human being becomes a
Christ; then, the human being is converted into a
living Christ. We need to form Christ within ourselves.
To incarnate the truth is urgent...

Christ is the great breath emanated from within
the bosom of the Absolute Abstract Eternal Space.
The Absolute Abstract Eternal Space is the Being of
the Being that is within all Beings. The Absolute is
the Unutterable One; the Limitless Space. Whosoever
incarnates the Christ, Christifies his/her Self and
enters into the ranks of the Army of the Voice.
...

In other words, it is taught that in the Path of Initiation, the lunar personality is converted into Solar personality(the personality is converted into Soul), and then there-after the Soul is Christified(the Soul Unites with the Spirit).

So yes, the Soul is non-permanent, that is, unless it is Christified(United with the Spirit).

But most of us don't even possess our Souls, let alone Christified them!

More on the Kabbalistic breakdown, in reference to some of what queenannie shared:

Animal (Chaia in Hebrew) is the symbol of the psyche trapped within the bestial ego!

The lower souls are divided into two general categories: Nephesh and Ruach, these are symbolized by fish and land animals. The two prototypes of these lower souls are the leviathan and the behemoth. In this day and age, these two categories of souls correspond to the two innate tendencies and attractions of the psyche, to either the concealed and secret knowledge within the superior dimensions of the Tree of Life or to the identification with Maya (ilusion) of this material world.

These two prototypes, leviathan and behemot, must blend through self-realization by means of the annihilation of the "ego" in the forty nine levels of the mind, subsequently they must blend with Neshamah (the superior soul).

The mixture of the three of them makes the true human into the image of God. These true human beings blend their consciousness with Kether (the Ancient of Days, the Cosmic Christ) in order to integrate themselves into an absolutely higher level of consciousness (Yehidah and Chaia).

Regards

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Tamahu]

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 10:47 AM
link

Originally posted by Tamahu

The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah

...You must known that Christ(Spirit) is not an individual.

The Cosmic Christ(Spirit) is impersonal, universal, and is
beyond individuality, personality, beyond the “I.”

Yet, Christ is a cosmic force that can express Himself
through any human being who is properly prepared
(She/He who has Built the Soul within themselves:
"With Patience ye shall possess thy Souls").

Once, the Christ expressed Himself through the
great Master Jeshua Ben Pandira, who is known in the
physical world as the Master Jesus of Nazareth. The
Christ also expressed Himself through many other
Masters.

Christ is a latent cosmic substance within each
atom of the Infinite. Christ is the substance of truth.
Christ is truth and life.

A human being is Christified when the Christ
substance is assimilated physically, psychologically
and spiritually. Then, the human being becomes a
Christ; then, the human being is converted into a
living Christ. We need to form Christ within ourselves.
To incarnate the truth is urgent...

Christ is the great breath emanated from within
the bosom of the Absolute Abstract Eternal Space.
The Absolute Abstract Eternal Space is the Being of
the Being that is within all Beings. The Absolute is
the Unutterable One; the Limitless Space. Whosoever
incarnates the Christ, Christifies his/her Self and
enters into the ranks of the Army of the Voice.
...

In other words, it is taught that in the Path of Initiation, the lunar personality is converted into Solar personality(the personality is converted into Soul), and then there-after the Soul is Christified(the Soul Unites with the Spirit).

So yes, the Soul is non-permanent, that is, unless it is Christified(United with the Spirit).

But most of us don't even possess our Souls, let alone Christified them!

More on the Kabbalistic breakdown, in reference to some of what queenannie shared:

Animal (Chaia in Hebrew) is the symbol of the psyche trapped within the bestial ego!

The lower souls are divided into two general categories: Nephesh and Ruach, these are symbolized by fish and land animals. The two prototypes of these lower souls are the leviathan and the behemoth. In this day and age, these two categories of souls correspond to the two innate tendencies and attractions of the psyche, to either the concealed and secret knowledge within the superior dimensions of the Tree of Life or to the identification with Maya (ilusion) of this material world.

These two prototypes, leviathan and behemot, must blend through self-realization by means of the annihilation of the "ego" in the forty nine levels of the mind, subsequently they must blend with Neshamah (the superior soul).

The mixture of the three of them makes the true human into the image of God. These true human beings blend their consciousness with Kether (the Ancient of Days, the Cosmic Christ) in order to integrate themselves into an absolutely higher level of consciousness (Yehidah and Chaia).

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Tamahu]

Well, something that needs to be remembered here is that one cannot not possess a soul. A soul is simply the compositional make up of what we term "personality" in the physical matrix.

The spirit seems to be more representative, taking from your Gnostic texts, of this:

Christ is the great breath emanated from within
the bosom of the Absolute Abstract Eternal Space.
The Absolute Abstract Eternal Space is the Being of
the Being that is within all Beings.

Now, while I do tend to have a Gnostic view of things, I think they, like most others try to integrate soul and spirit as being one and the same. They are not the same thing. The spirit is the "great breath emanated from within the bosom" that the Gnostics refer to. The soul is the ethereal aspect of emotions, desires, et cetera that have been relegated to the physical.

etshrtslr

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 11:25 AM
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People always say, "Well, what about self." The self, at least in my opinion, has no objective reality in the spiritual realm.

The self is also just an illusion in the physical realm....quantum entanglement as far as im concerned proves that all consciousness is connected or are "One".

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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etshrtslr, I'd say that you are most likely correct. I don't see any real reason for anyone to fear losing "identity" when we are just, at least in my opinion, reflections of a single consciousness to start with.

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
etshrtslr, I'd say that you are most likely correct. I don't see any real reason for anyone to fear losing "identity" when we are just, at least in my opinion, reflections of a single consciousness to start with.

Interesting thought.

Perhaps, in the end, when all are perfected and consciously (somehow) united in God, we will basically be 'character traits' of God...

Each of us a facet of a Jewel which has so many facets they cannot be counted. And each of us, having been given something special from God, will shine in our own right, but yet part of Him!

etshrtslr

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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I don't see any real reason for anyone to fear losing "identity"

I think for most people the fear of losing their preceived idenity is one of the scariest thougths they can have its somthing the ego does not want to deal with.....I forgot who said this but whoever did said there is only one consciousness and we are all just individual aspects of that one consciousness. Again this goes back to the quantum entanglement.....for all consciousness to be entangled it has to all stem from the same source. To think that God is seperate and distinct from us is a fallacy of religion.

queenannie38

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by etshrtslr
I think for most people the fear of losing their preceived idenity is one of the scariest thougths they can have

I know it was for me! Totally. I couldn't understand that it didn't mean the end of 'me' but just the end of 'only me' or 'just me' or 'what about me.'

It wasn't a resistance or inability to understand unity (I did, to the extent possible, anyway) but it was the fact that I liked 'me' and that was based on the things I felt I had accomplished - my human pride which was glorying in my own abilities...

But then, something happened that made me feel that for all that I had done, and knew, and had accomplished, I had nothing - and the same thing I had gloried in, I then had to face as my downfall....

I made the stupidest decision of my life and I thought I had no reason to live (not physically, but rather I had no will to live - I planned on 'existing' only until I died - I am not a suicidal person - never have been) and so I not only didn't like myself anymore, I actually had no respect for myself.

It was a good thing, actually - the best thing for a person like me...I had been far more self-assured and confident than most people - and with God, that isn't necessarily a good thing - it is a hindrance to seeking to lean on His strength...

And then I realized that my 'ego,' my 'identity' - that was what had been my biggest deceiver all along! Our egos deceive us - and do all they can to survive - I think that, on a personal level ego = satan (the deceiver and adversary who is truly against our return to God)....but another part of our consciousness is often our 'accuser' which is a good thing - it challanges satan - kind of like Michael the Archangel and Satan contesting over Moses's bones...

To think that God is seperate and distinct from us is a fallacy of religion.

No doubt! And to think that we are not supposed to follow the path that leads to Him and that truly desiring to BE LIKE Him (as in good and loving and fair and merciful) is the deadliest sin there is - that is the biggest lie most people believe - it is NOT a sin to seek to be Godly (for the right reasons) - of course it is not in our power, alone, but it definitely not a sin of pride to ask for that - Solomon asked for wisdom - I would think that is almost like asking to have a mind like God's - and he got it! It was the RIGHT thing to seek!

If we seek HIS will - then do we not seek HIS mind to be our own mind?

SpeakerofTruth

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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Well, annie, while we certainly will be differentiated, when it comes to the bottom line, we will all be one consciousness. I know that is hard for some people to grasp or swallow, but that is the truth, at least as far as it has been shown to me. I have no reason to doubt what God has lead me to, so, I have to say that that is the truth.

Rren

posted on Apr, 22 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
~Genesis 2:7

All three vital principles of humanity are mentioned in the above verse: body, soul, and spirit…

1. dust = fleshly body
2. God’s breath of life = spirit
3. (these combined somehow to make man become a ‘living soul.’)

Corresponding to the Hebrew:
1. chay= living flesh, fresh plant, living thing, living creature
2. neshamah = divine inspiration, intellect, vital principle
3. nephesh = a breathing creature, animal vitality; heart, mind, mortality, person, self

[... snip... ]

Our bodies don’t retain our souls in death – essentially and in the simplest sense it would seem our ‘being-ness’ merges back into the waters, the seas….

Each soul born is unique – a product which is a combination of the ‘dust’ly characteristics of human parents enlivened by the vitality of the Divine Father….

Just want to say that this is exactly how I understand this too. Annie does a much better job than I could/did do.

The soul - Is what it means to be a human. Sin, since the fall, defines me. It "will surely die". One way or the other it's - ultimately - gotta go.

The Spirit - Is His. Will return to the source from whence it came; Him.

The Good News Is:

John 11

Jesus Comforts the Sisters
17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Bethany was less than two miles[a] from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...

Nice thread, SpeakerofTruth. I've a lot of information to digest still, but thanks.

Regards.