Suicide: Who is the Real Victim?

Originally posted by chissler

MacDonagh, do you consider suicide to be a selfish act?

No. I believe that suicide isn't a selfish act. What is selfish, is leaving their cadaver to be discovered by their family or their closest friends. That was one of the reasons that stopped me from going through with an attempt. How would my family feel if they discovered me with a self-inflicted stab wound through my chest? I first thought that I should be naked whilst I did it, cause I didn't want to mess up the clothes, then I started thinking about the carpet. Does blood come out easily? I started to laugh though. Here I was, with a very sharp knife pointing at my chest, thinking how to make a clean death, and realising that being naked with a stab wound in my chest isn't going to soften any blow my family would feel as a result of my suicide.

I then constructed an idea. Of just disappearing, and killing myself, were I wouldn't be found. No heartache, no mess, no funeral. The sea looked quite promising. Tie a weight around my feet, and endure a couple of moments of pain, and then peace. I never got round to it. I was sure I would have screwed up the plan, and I'd get discovered anyway. And for a Catholic family, the shame would be overwhelming.

The thought of someone having to discover my body stopped me dead in my tracks, no pun intended. I wish I hadn't mentioned her name - it could have been anyone said that at that time. It was mean-spirited, I thought. Even if it wasn't meant that way, there appears to be a need to maintain a certain cliqueishness on boards and it can be quite destructive. Especially combined with potent subject matter. One wonders if it's not intentional, it's so cutting. It's just how people are. Sitting behind a machine, you're not aware of the state of the person your addressing, other than by what you can infer from the print. I have more than a little contempt for people who prey on the weak, especially for the sake of decorum.

Originally posted by clook
Suicide goes beyond a person making a logical decision to end it all. My sister took her life only a year ago and I would prefer never to be called a victim of her death. In her death, she was the victim of a psychiatrist who treated her with a concoction of drugs that numbed her senses enough for her to complete a task that she swore she would never undertake. She had said repeatedly that she would never leave that legacy for her children to endure. That same legacy had been bequeathed to us by our mother, so she knew full well the torment that all of of us would bear.
The psychiatrist was not conducting his practice from a back alley. His colleagues consider him to be one of the best in his field. Yet with full knowledge of her family history, he prescribed an antidepressant along with both short and long term acting antianxiety medications. Part of the family history profile included addictions and previous suicide attempts from years ago. In my humble opinion, and also documented in the American Psychiatric Association's practice guideline for the assessment and treatment of patients with suicidal behaviors, prescriptions for Xanax, over a period of approx. 18 months, would have been the last type of drug you would prescribe.
The act of suicide is a desperate, and sometimes impulsive act in response to a variety of extreme emotions that is not usually balanced with rationality. Those emotions, in addition to depression, include rage, frustration, fear, rejection, and despair. I am sure that this act was only completed with thoughts such as "they will be better off without me". Rarely is the act of suicide committed without the influence of a mood altering medication. This was noted in several studies I have read.
Every human being faces challenges and obstacles that they must learn to naviagate through and endure. We must rely on a higher being, family, and friends, someone to support us when we feel overwhelmed. But when someone in our lives commits this ultimate act, then that deed exacts a toll that can change our philosophy on living a life with determination. That act is now introduced into every life that is touched by that death. I know my sister would never have wanted to be a part of introducing such an insidious act as an option to consider in overcoming any obstacle.

I agree absolutely Clook. A person who kills themselve due to mental and emotional illness is the same as one who dies of a terminal illness. Addiction is a mental illness among other things, one that is still treated like a moral weakness or evil. It is more prevalent in the modern psyche than is admitted socially. Which is one of the reasons I am compelled to share my haggard internet introduction with people. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. I'm sure if the suicide rates are rising it's has a corrolary to the internet. Internet addiction in its most pernicious form, like any addiction, is a form of psychosis.
Doctors are pedestalized for their science, but science without religion is dead - or, you can't heal until you've walked the medicine wheel. Until addiction and it's internet forms are more honestly addressed by society, I fear the death tolls will continue to rise. The internet provides a depersonalized machination for the hen-pecking reflex of tribal living. Addiction is the great imitator and many people are mis-diagnosed and treated improperly. The unlucky people who find themselves in the position of being eaten alive by addiction, ignorance and nazi technology are no more to blame for their suicides than victims of terminal illness.

Really, I just worry for other people. I was already skidding from the assault and I expected more compassion at the site. I think if a woman shows up on a web-site weeping about being raped, it's nice if at least one person offers a prayer, rather than the opinion that she reminds them of a social clod who commited suicide.

One person did.

Very good topic Chissler.

I don't think that there is a simple answer to the question, some
people consider the person who commits suicide to be the victim,
some consider the family & friends to be the victims.

It's my opinion that the person commiting suicide can be the victim,
but otherwise it is victimless.


I'll admit, since I don't particularly see the the point in keeping things
secret, I've had suicidal thoughts before, and indeed considered and
come close to trying to commit suicide.

However, had I gone through with it, there would have ben no victims
in my opinion.
Would some people have ben sad, yes, would it be some great cata-
clysmic event, well who knows, would be sorta cool if it was, but in
general, had I done so, the world would go on unphased, and apart
from being sad, no one would be hurt.

Now, had the thoughts of suicide been caused by bullying or other such
things, and I'd ended my life, than I would have been the victim.


Anyways, that's just what I have to think on the matter.

Originally posted by iori_komei
It's my opinion that the person commiting suicide can be the victim,
but otherwise it is victimless.

When someone dies, someone is always affected. Even if the deceased is not aware of it, somebody is always affected. Yes the world would continue on unphased, but the world for somebody would come to a crashing halt. This person has done nothing wrong, but has had their world turned upside down. They are a victim of this tragedy. I try to refrain from assuming IK, but can you honestly say that nobody would be affected by the news of your passing?

We can not expect the world to stop when our number is called, but we can be fairly certain it would stop for somebody.

Originally posted by clearwater
Really, I just worry for other people. I was already skidding from the assault and I expected more compassion at the site. I think if a woman shows up on a web-site weeping about being raped, it's nice if at least one person offers a prayer, rather than the opinion that she reminds them of a social clod who commited suicide.

One person did.

It's sort of hard Clear. I'm still astonished, and shocked that someone would say such hurtful things against you on a message board. It's easier to insult someone over the internet I suppose. This is clearly a sensitive subject for you, and I choose my words carefully when I say this: I wish you the very best and I hope you overcome all.

I think we need to take certain things with a grain of salt. This is a message board, and nothing anyone here has to say is going to push me in a negative way. Certainly members have the ability to inspire me, many have on many of occasions. But if someone has a negative opinion on me, or a negative message to send my way, than that is their problem. I'm not here to waste my time worrying about what a member is saying or doing.

It is unfortunate you were through such an encounter. But you need to realize where the message is coming from in my opinion. It easily could of been some punk kid behind the name who did not understand the strength of the message he/she was portraying. It is unfortunate the Administrators of the site chose to stand behind the culprit, but we need to get past the opinions of complete strangers who do not know who we truly are.

Listen to your loved ones, keep them in mind in times of need.

In my personal experience of life I have come to learn that it is much more painful to attempt to avoid pain and that in the long run of time I have also learned that pain won't kill me but that my inablity to experience it might.

Pain is similar to fire, you have to pass through it to be transformed by it. The transformation is not always for the best, but seems to always be necessary.

To some degree in life we are all born victims with the potential to be over-comers. Pain is the opposite of Joy is we cannot have one without the other. Life is hard, live it anyway and you will be better off.

I have wanted to die, even tried to make it happen.

I'm glad it didn't happen because I am alive and glad to be alive.

I live through my passion to find truth

[edit on 22-10-2006 by interestedalways]

This report indicates that cancer patients are more than twice as likely to commit suicide than the general population. This isn't the most surprising of news, even though cancer isn't nearly the death sentence it once was. Still, the treatment can be very painful and disconcerting in itself, not to mention the pain that is associated with many cancers.

SUICIDE MORE COMMON in CANCER PATIENTS A new study by Canadian researchers examined 1.3 million cancer cases and found that, while suicide was still rare, cancer patients were more than twice as likely to commit suicide as the general population. The suicide rate among cancer patients was 24 suicides for every 100,000 patients, compared to a rate of 10.6 suicides per 100,000 people in the general population. Researchers say oncologists need to be aware of the potential suicide risk among cancer patients. This study was published in the most recent issue of the Annals of Oncology.

abcnews.go.com

It is easier to understand the sentiment of those who are faced with a terminal illness that will include horrible suffering than it is to understand a teenager committing suicide over unrequited love.

For some there is no justification for taking one's own life, but no matter what anyone has to say about it, it's the individual's choice and once the deed is done, who's going to do anything about it.

There are many things in life that are inexplicable and I would have to say that the state of mind that leads to suicide is one of those things. If you haven't experienced it, then you just can't understand and those who complete the act aren't in a position to explain, so we are left with only the word of those who failed.

It is truly an enigma.

Originally posted by chissler
When someone dies, someone is always affected.

That's true for the majority of the populace.
But I don't consider them victims.

I try to refrain from assuming IK, but can you honestly say that nobody would be affected by the news of your passing?

One or two, yes.
But, I would'nt consider them victims, as they would'nt be physically
hurt, or deliberately psychologically hurt.

There have been more than 1,200 suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge since it opened in 1937, among the most of any location in the world. There is virtually no barrier to someone who is determined to jump — only a 4-foot safety railing.

The jump is the equivalent of a 4-second, 25-story fall, and although some have survived it, a body is usually shattered when it strikes the water at 75 miles per hour. Whether to build a "suicide barrier" has been a political hot button in San Francisco for decades.

From January through December 2004, [Eric] Steel used 10-to-12-person crews to train his cameras day and night on this landmark — using both close-up lenses and wide angle shots to see the full expanse of the bridge.

By the time he finished, he had taped 23 of the 24 suicides that occurred that year. Now he has released a documentary called "The Bridge" that shows some of the jumps. The film has produced both praise and condemnation for his choices.

abcnews.go.com

I haven't seen the film, but it is an interesting take on a very old subject. I saw footage of the BASE jumper who was killed yesterday when his 'chute failed to open in time after plunging from an 850 foot bridge. I didn't find it particularly upsetting. However, it might be different when it is known that the jumper intentionally took his own life.



This is a different video that doesn't show his hitting the water, but shows the crowd's reaction.

Last Jump

After reading your post and the article, I am slightly confused.

The man chose not to release the chute? It was his intentions to commit suicide?

No, I was just relating the outrage against the film with the fact that I saw that jumper hit the water yesterday at least three times and no one was raging about that and I don't see a lot of difference between the two.

I provided links to the jumper story so others would know what I was speaking of, if they hadn't seen or heard of it themselves.

Ok I think if you're going to kill yourself you should be considerate to others and not leave a mess.

Originally posted by laiguana
Ok I think if you're going to kill yourself you should be considerate to others and not leave a mess.

So do you consider Suicide a selfish act? Are the family members who are left behind victims to the tragedy? Is the deceased a victim?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
No, I was just relating the outrage against the film with the fact that I saw that jumper hit the water yesterday at least three times and no one was raging about that and I don't see a lot of difference between the two.

Yeah, the first thing that struck my mind when I watched the video was the serious lack of emotion from the crowd. One lady covered her mouth, another guys jaw dropped, but other than that it was very anticlimactic. A mans death and anticlimactic are two words that should not be used in a sentence.

It also seemed that they continued to jump a short time after the mans death.

Originally posted by MacDonagh

Originally posted by clearwater
Really, I just worry for other people. I was already skidding from the assault and I expected more compassion at the site. I think if a woman shows up on a web-site weeping about being raped, it's nice if at least one person offers a prayer, rather than the opinion that she reminds them of a social clod who commited suicide.

One person did.

It's sort of hard Clear. I'm still astonished, and shocked that someone would say such hurtful things against you on a message board. It's easier to insult someone over the internet I suppose. This is clearly a sensitive subject for you, and I choose my words carefully when I say this: I wish you the very best and I hope you overcome all.

Thanks McDonagh, Don't worry about choosing your words. I'm astonished too, that people claiming to be spiritually minded are so obtuse. I think it's justified as natural selection, but natural selection is a flawed theory. Natural selection determines what types of creatures survive, not necessarily the most sentient ones. So people don't bother seeking the Kingdom within, it's easier to dispose of those people and ideas that make them uncomfortable. I just ask Mary to help me thank them. If they can't grow from it, at least I can.

The thing that pissed me off most was she does it to everyone who doesn't fit in there. Makes me wonder how many people they've finished off.

[edit on 23-10-2006 by clearwater]

A break from viewing this topic was necessary in order for me to clearly define and articulate a response to Chissler's inquiry into identifying who the victim(s) in suicide really are. Chissler, many of your comments have a cavalier attitutude which has personally made it difficult to remain engaged with this topic. You certainly must realize that with the posing of your question on this topic, the replies would come from those most likely to have encountered, in some capacity, this tragedy in their own lives.
It is acknowledged and appreciated your intent to keep this discussion respectful, but you are adding insult to injury with comments like "people have abandoned their loved ones, and chose not to deal with their problems". The complexity of the brain, its development and function, and the influences of the biological, social, and psychological environment has a combined effect upon a person during their lifetime to determine a healthy response to the stressors encountered during their lifetime. Therefore, the person committing suicide is the victim of the most serious consequence of mental illness. Those remaining are the survivors. There is certainly no power in wearing the label of victim, but I'll concede to the characterization of survivor.
You never know with certainty the state of mind of someone you interact with and how they are processing their internal conflicts. My sister, a high functioning professional, had been in counseling for well over a year prior to her death. Her daughters had worked part time in her office and tried to gain support from her manager and colleagues in addressing the deterioration of her behavior and work performance through their employee assistance program. This effort, done under the guidance of their therapist, was unsuccessful even in the face of their acknowledgement of existing problems which they hoped would resolve themselves with time.
Her anguish from personal tragedies and feelings of rejection and abandonment made us all feel helpless. We prayed earnestly for her to find comfort from her pain while realizing her realiance on prescription drugs was where she relied for immediate relief. Her breaking point came soon after her psychiatrist informed her by phone that he would be taking her off Xanax. The family was unaware of this information until much later.
After our discovering that she failed to show up for work, a call to her therapist to confirm if she had kept her appt from the day before couldn't be answered due to HIPPA laws. She had advised us to contact police if she failed to respond to our knocks at the door and to keep her informed. Excellent advice! Our personal grief counseling has allowed us to let go of our feelings of anger and replace it with hope. It's a new road to travel but will be done in our search for strength, acceptance, and understanding.
This is one family's saga in the arena of mental illness. Unfortunately there are many more like it, some with less devastating results. As with any illness, whether from cancer or heart disease, THIS will be a story of survival filled with hope. It's our choice...

Posted by clook
It is acknowledged and appreciated your intent to keep this discussion respectful, but you are adding insult to injury with comments like "people have abandoned their loved ones, and chose not to deal with their problems"

I've also acknowledged the immense about of greyness on this subject and that no explanation is going to fit all scenarios. I do try to remain respectful, and I do apoligize if I offend you or anyone else, but I do feel that a person could of turned to someone for help rather than throwing in the towel. I have never had someone commit suicide in my family, but I have dealt with death. I've had tragic deaths in my family, where I witnessed them fight for their last breath. This certainly could be a contributing factor to my opinions on suicide. I watch someone fight for their last breath, then think of somebody else who decided to end their life. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Mental illnesses can cloud our judgement when it comes to a decision on this. Tough to judge a person who has gone through this, when I have not. But all of the suicides that I have encountered were through selfish reasons. They had too many problems, they had too many bills, they couldn't deal with everything life had to offer on a daily basis. I know of three people my age who found their fathers in their bedroom who were after shooting themselves in the head. That is selfish! Ending your life, and leaving your remains for your son to uncover, that is the definition of selfish.

So my apologies for my general speaking, and if I have offended you. The last thing I wanted to do in this thread was insult anyone or the memory of a lost soul. I just hope you can understand where I come from in my thinking.