Suicide: Who is the Real Victim?

This is a thread dedicated to suicide. First and foremost we must acknowledge the sensitivity that is required when dealing with a subject like this one. This can be emotional for some people, so we should keep that in mind before we post our thoughts and opinions.

I come from a small town on the east coast of Canada, and suicide has been a very large problem in the recent years. I have known several people that have ended their own life, and know many other people who have had been affected by this tragedy.

So many times I hear of people discussing how unfortunate it is for the deceased, and how they are the victim here. Well, I can understand they are not in the correct state of mind to concock these plans but at some point they must think of their loved ones, and it is evident they are turning their backs on them. I'm talking about the father, who has his bills piling up, stress at home and work is simply becoming too much, so they take the easy way out. I have a strong opinion on this situation, as I have come into it too many times.

I believe this man is not the victim, the small children he leaves behind are the true victims. His wife is the victim, he is the individual who chose to turn his back on his family and turn off the lights.

--

All to often you will find me discussing school bullying on this Forum. It is deffinately a contributing factor to school shootings, and suicide in many teenagers. I've been a teenager, and I have been a victim of bullying. Hell, I'd be lying if I said I never took a cheap shot at someone else before. I know how bad it feels to be the brunt of an immature joke, and I also know how bad it feels to be the one pointing the finger.

No matter how bad things appear to be, I can not get past the fact that these individuals have turned their back on their family. They have chosen to leave them in grief for the rest of their lives, and simply wonder where they went wrong.

Suicide is a permanent solution, to a temporary problem.

I have more opinions on this subject, and a lot more to say. But I will leave it at this for now and open the door for other members to come in and voice their opinions. Opinions & Experiences are welcome.

Again, this can be a very sensitive subject for members. Please remain respectful. I find myself rereading this post right now, to make sure I am not possibly offending someone who may of lost someone to suicide.



[edit on 19-10-2006 by chissler]

As always, good post, Chissler. I am one of those who has struggled for years with suicidal thoughts, and finally found out it was due to major depression. Once I got on meds, I was fine and I can proudly say that I have been free from suicidal thoughts now for 5 years. But it was a hell I wouldn't wish on anyone. BTW, I don't think suicide is the easy way out. I never saw myself as a victim of anything, but I guess I could say I was a victim of major depression. But yes, the true victims are the children and spouse, parents, etc. who have to live with the idea that they couldn't prevent someone they love from suicide. The anguish, anger and sorrow that families/friends have to endure is indeed not a small thing. I have known 2 people closely that committed suicide.

As a therapist, it is my firm idea that no one commits suicide unless they're suffering from some form of depression. This is why it's so important to learn about depression and get treatment for it if you have it.

Originally posted by forestlady
BTW, I don't think suicide is the easy way out.

If I may, can we elaborate on this point alittle bit?

In my opinion, suicide, is taking the easy way out. For many, their problems become too much for them to handle. Suicide is their way of not having to deal with their problems.

I would love to hear your opinion.

Originally posted by forestlady
As a therapist, it is my firm idea that no one commits suicide unless they're suffering from some form of depression. This is why it's so important to learn about depression and get treatment for it if you have it.

Well, I'm no therapist, but let me present you with a situation. Lets take the Columbine killers for example, do you really think that their suicides were a result of depression, or because they wanted to avoid the punishment for their actions? Or could it be a combination of both? Also another example could be the 9/11 hijackers. I wouldn't think that they were depressed. I'm not so sure that just depressed people kill themselves. Please, enlighten me about this.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Mimbster]

Personally I don't think it is that black and white, whether it is the easy way out or not. Feeling hopeless and like dying is not easy to be in that much despair that you can no longer feel the pain has to be a horrible, horrible thing. Choosing to just give up and leave everything that has potential to bring you joy is a reckless decision and is made when a person is emotionally broken down.

On the other hand it is a very selfish act as Chissler stated because the people left behind have all the pain that everyone has plus the extra burden of dealing with the feelings that come when someone has committed this act.

This is a sensitive subject and the most true statement has already been said.

It is a PERMANENT solution to a TEMPORARY problem.

There is more to be said, but I have said enough.

I think the worst feeling is that of wishing you knew how bad it was for the person so you could have helped them, and also feeling the person didn't love you enough to stay here and face thier issues.

Chissler--

Thanks again for a great thread. Agreed, this is something that really does need to be open for discussion, and I certainly hope the board Trolls will, for once, keep their mouths shut on this one. Forest Lady--I caught your post as I called the reply form up--glad to see a tharapist up here--and one who has has the experience.

Though I may be revealing a bit more of my past that I usually do, I am going to tell this story for the benefit of all concerned, and in the greater light that this Thread Chissler created may be read by someone in need of hearing what I and others say, here.

28 years ago, I held the barrel of a loaded .45 Colt Commander to my head and squeezed the trigger. The hammer hit, and the gun failed to fire. The same HP bullet with a dented primer is a part of my "medicine bag" which I, like most Natives, wear or carry all the time. It remindes me constantly of my worst day on Earth, that things grew from there to the present, and that they will never get that bad again.

That's the story, and here is the rest of it. I am a 'Nam Vet and suffer from PTSD. Shortly before I tried to do myself in, and even carried it out as far as I was allowed, I had been through a very bad divorce, lost everything that I had worked for, and was generally at the very bottom of a very deep pit in a very dark place. (Understand, here, that PTSD was not a recognized condition[did not exist] until 1985, so there was no treatment for it.)

The Idea of victimizing someone else did cross my mind, but not in the way you would think. I didn't want anyone to have to clean up after me, so I went outside. I was living very alone, with no means of support, on a very remote and large farm, so, I wasn't worried about traumatizing witnesses. That is ALL I thought about.

As Forest Lady has pointed out, Depression is the factor. I can tell you that, YES, I was Depressed at the time, and grand mal. Depression is dark place, Folks. It isnt that you don't think--it is that you CAN'T think--at least not rationally--and that makes the condition dangerous and life threatening. Depression always has and environmental factor, even though modern medical science currently treats the condition (sucessfully for the most part) as an imballance in brain chemicals. There are Environmental Factors--rational ones--that lead to the imballances. There were many in my Life at that time, such that the stress was overwhelming, I just wanted it all to stop, and stopping it was all I thought about for days before the attempt. The decision I made, whether right or wrong, was the last best one at the time in my rattled and dislocated irrational mind.

That, in a nutshell, is my story. I relate it here for the benefit of all who read this thread and either themselves are, or they know someone who is, having suicidal thoughts or is suffering Depression. Trust me, you can climb out of the Pit, or help your friend to do so. Get HELP--go see your Physician, your Minister, or a good friend, and TALK openly about how you feel. I have been there and done this, and I am still here to throw you a Rope. There are many new drugs out there, like Celexa, Wellbutrin, and many others which can restore the balances without interfering with your daily activities or making you "feel funny" or "high".

Since you are a Therapist, Forest Lady, I request that you post the symptoms of Clinical Depression to this thread for the benefit of all.

Lastly, what got between that primer and the charge on that day, whether God or Remmington's Quality Control, I don't know. I like to think I know which, and I give credit to the first. Either way, I have never been the same since.

Thanks again, Chissler.

There are different types of suicide. Some are selfish, some aren't. As with most things, there's no black and white here, but a lot of gray area.

I've noticed in some places that it's fashionable to label those considering suicide to be "selfish". What better way to push them over the edge by making them feel bad?

Sometimes a person has no family. Sometimes a person loses everything after years of hard work and always doing the right thing. If there's no one who cares or will miss that person, is it still wrong? Sometimes it's simply a mental illness. Perhaps a father offs himself because their about to run out of money and the only way to keep the rest of the family off the streets is from the insurance money? We shouldn't judge them so quickly.

I've been through depression, I've had suicidal thoughts, I know what it's like. The only reason I didn't off myself was because I had a family. In the end, my selflessness paid off, as I'm no longer depressed and am quite happy with myself. It was a tough road though, as there were tensions in my family and I often felt alone, so I can definately understand why some would take the easy route.

I'm making 2 points here. First, don't be so quick to judge those who are suicidal and label them bad people. Second, it pays to get through the problems. Things do get better, even when all hope appears to be lost. One door closes, another opens.

Chissler as usual this is a great thread.

I would like to share my experience with you. This summer before she left for college my daughter and I had some pretty deep conversations. During one of them she told me that she had planned a suicide. She was going to do it over the Christmas break from school. The bullying at school had reached the point that she felt she could no longer handle it. That Christmas came and as a huge surprise I purchased 2 horses for her. One of them was a quarter horse mare and the other was a badly abused 18 month old baby that she had fallen in love with earlier. Those horses changed her mind. She told me that at that moment she knew that I loved her with all my heart and besides she couldn't leave her baby. Well, her baby is now 9 years old and 16+hands. I will tell you Mark (the horse) almost died the vet didn't think he would make it. I believe that my daughter and Mark walked out of the dark valley of death together. I'm crying now with the memory of how close I came to losing my child. To tell the truth had she killed herself I most likely would have followed close behind. I guess this explains why I'm such a believer in equine assisted theraphy.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by gallopinghordes]

Originally posted by Kruel
I've been through depression, I've had suicidal thoughts, I know what it's like.

I believe that is a common misconception made by many of us. Just because we have gone through an episode that is similiar to anothers, it does not inform us of how they feel. I think a strong majority of people have had suicidal thoughts at one time or another, some may of been stronger for others. My thoughts do not inform me on how someone else may feel. It may appear empathetic to tell a person that you have been there and know how it feels, but it can be construed in a very negative way.

Originally posted by Kruel
I'm making 2 points here. First, don't be so quick to judge those who are suicidal and label them bad people. Second, it pays to get through the problems. Things do get better, even when all hope appears to be lost. One door closes, another opens.

Who has judged people who have suicidal thoughts? Who has labeled them a bad person?

I have openly stated that a person who actually commits suicide, has turned their back on their loved ones. If a person has no loved ones or relationships, and does not want to continue with their life, then I support their decision. Grant it was done at a time when they were not under the influence of any drugs or alcohol. I used the example of a father who can't deal with the stress a family brings, or a teenager who just broke up with his last girlfriend.

I feel these people have abandoned their loved ones, and chose to not deal with their problems. So I would like to make it clear that people who have suicidal thoughts are not bad people.

Originally posted by chissler
but at some point they must think of their loved ones, and it is evident they are turning their backs on them.

I am going to assume by that statement, you have never confronted suicidal emotions of your own.

What I am implying is, it is a far deeper experience than the emotions non-suicidal people experience. The thought of "victims" does not enter play, as the pain a suicidal person is dealing with is all-consuming.

Misfit

Originally posted by Misfit

Originally posted by chissler
but at some point they must think of their loved ones, and it is evident they are turning their backs on them.

I am going to assume by that statement, you have never confronted suicidal emotions of your own.

I can see where you would come to that conclusion. But I would be lying if I said I never contimplated suicide. When I was younger I grew up in a home with a strong support group, it was nice. Unfortunately my step-father was taken from me, which left most of my family life in shambles. The biggest problem for myself, was how everything happened. No person should ever have to witness the death of a loved one, especially not a teenager who is dealing with enough problems already. I laid on the kitchen floor with him in my arms as he past away and the 911 operator trying to console me from the phone that was on the floor. Something like this does run amuck on our state of mind & our emotions.

After this I thought about suicide, I didn't want to deal with my problems. But when I looked at my mother, I couldn't leave her with the mess I would create by taking my own life. I was an emotional wreck, but I was still in better shape than her. So it was my responsibility to care for her, my problems came second. I was forced to deal with these on my own time, with noone to talk to.

So I appreciate your willingness to ask without simply assuming. But I have been through this, and I am in no way qualified to tell somebody else how they should go about their feelings because they may be dealing with it in a completely different way I dealt with it. Perception is reality, the way we percieve our surroundings is going to make our encounters much different then those around us.

My inability to turn my back on loved ones is why I draw the conclusions I do. I believe I am a better person for having to endure that dark emotional state, it gives you a better view of the broader picture.

Originally posted by Misfit
What I am implying is, it is a far deeper experience than the emotions non-suicidal people experience. The thought of "victims" does not enter play, as the pain a suicidal person is dealing with is all-consuming.

I agree & disagree. It is a deep emotion experience, much deeper than many other things in life. However, when a person is contimplating suicide their loved ones do come to mind at one point or another. It may not be the focus, but it is there. I believe some are well aware of the consequences their actions are going to hold.



[edit on 20-10-2006 by chissler]

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
Chissler as usual this is a great thread.

I would like to share my experience with you. This summer before she left for college my daughter and I had some pretty deep conversations. During one of them she told me that she had planned a suicide. She was going to do it over the Christmas break from school. The bullying at school had reached the point that she felt she could no longer handle it. That Christmas came and as a huge surprise I purchased 2 horses for her. One of them was a quarter horse mare and the other was a badly abused 18 month old baby that she had fallen in love with earlier. Those horses changed her mind. She told me that at that moment she knew that I loved her with all my heart and besides she couldn't leave her baby. Well, her baby is now 9 years old and 16+hands. I will tell you Mark (the horse) almost died the vet didn't think he would make it. I believe that my daughter and Mark walked out of the dark valley of death together. I'm crying now with the memory of how close I came to losing my child. To tell the truth had she killed herself I most likely would have followed close behind. I guess this explains why I'm such a believer in equine assisted theraphy.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by gallopinghordes]

@Galloping--

Completely commendable and highly appropriate act with the Horses. I am very much with you on EAP and Horses in general. In fact, we raise Horses and we have 38 on 200 acres. Wonderful Creatures and Gifted by God with the power of healing Humans.

I appologise for the disruption going a little adrift with this comment, but had to say it in support of GallopingHordes.



[edit on 20-10-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

I do feel for your pain, this is in no way an attempt to belittle that, just to add to it. I am glad you were able to stop at just the contemplation of suicide, but there are a couple levels that come after that. Its when one enters a state of mind that is suicidal, not just thinking about it - but how to do it successfully, that all outside entities (other victims) leave all thought processes. That's when most people throw "he was being selfish" at a suicidal person - it's not about thinking only of ones self in a sense of "it's all about me", it's about an all consuming fire for misery to end. Often times, the thought of other WILL play into a scenario, but in the sense that suicide is then also justified on a deeper level , by the act of the suicidal persons miserable life would not interfere with his/her loved ones any longer, thereby draggin there existense down as well.

Misfit

Thank You.

There are without a doubt many different levels. I believe almost everybody thinks about it at one time or another, while others may become serious with their thoughts. I don't think I ever seriously considered acting on it, but I did take time to actually play out the pros and cons of it and the consequences my actions held.

When I speak of selfishness, I do not mean it in the sense of everything being about them. I don't consider suicide an act that is all about the individual. I inject the selfishness on the issue when I think about the hurt that has been spread over so many family members, by the intentional actions of another. The actions themselves are selfish, but the comprehension surrounding suicide is not about oneself.

Seems there is a contradiction in my thinking, but it is tough to decipher through all of the greyness on this subject.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by chissler]

True, suicide is not just of one victim, everyone involved is a victim - the suicidal person, the family, extended family, work, etc etc. So often I see people almost trying to claim "it's ME that is the true victim", now that is selfish.

Suicide is a permanent solution, to a temporary problem.

There are, many people, who choose suicide because the problems are not just temporary, but are, in fact, permement for all their days, every day.

I don't think I ever seriously considered acting on it

Just to let you know where I have been ........... I witnessed, unable to prevent, another carry hers out to the end; I coaxed another to help; and, the most personal ...... not only do I have my own mental and physical scars, but this is an ongoing scenario with me ...... you see, I am one of those people I mentioned above - I am one of those people who deal with more pain than most people can imagine on a daily basis, every day, it is constant that after someone learning of what I am has remarks such as "how do you keep going", and will be so for the rest of my life.

Now, in no way is that a ploy for sympathy, it's just a statement of disposition. I see any sympathy directed at me, well - I'm going to get the baseball bat and you'll be praying for sympathy from others for YOU !!!! lolol

Misfit

[edit on 20/10/06 by Misfit]

Chissler; I'm so sorry for the pain you went through. No teenager should ever have to experience that. What a blessing for all of us that you are still here.

Misfit, I too have a medical condition two actually, that cause unending pain. I'm not crippled yet but most likely will be in a wheelchair. A good day my pain level is 6 or 7 on a bad day well; it's bad. So, I'll offer no sympathy but is empathy ok? I hate the question how do you do; you just do. By the by I still won't consider myself crippled when I am in a wheelchair.

EdLittlefox; thanks your place sounds wonderful and horses are special. I work with an Egala group that's what my 4-H group for troubled kids is affliated with. We also use cainine and feline as well.

By the way Chissler you get one of my WATS for this month not just for these posts but for your others as well. EdLittlefox you get one as well.

Originally posted by Misfit
True, suicide is not just of one victim, everyone involved is a victim - the suicidal person, the family, extended family, work, etc etc. So often I see people almost trying to claim "it's ME that is the true victim", now that is selfish.

Well said. People who victimize themselves are probably my biggest pet peave. I hesistated to share my personal story, because I felt it may portray an attempt to victimize myself. From my personal experiences, when a teenager has commited suicide, flocks of people begin to mourn very publicly. People who did not even know who the person was, it is just a blatant attempt to portray themselves as the victim. I prefer to keep to myself, or talk to my closest of friends to deal my issues.

The world has enough victims, we don't have to spend our time making ourselves into one.

I find often, during a subject as deep and member (group, cliche, friends, etc) personal as this one, that it may come to a lull as no one is quite sure what to be said next, as so often emotions simply have no verbal expression. It's these times, I find that humor interjected is often quite apporpriate, because a smile is good for us.

That said, here is my humor (er, attempt thereof, lol)

Originally posted by chissler

When I was younger

I just saw your pic on the photo thread. I didn't know your post was referring to LAST WEEK !!!

Yer a YUNGIN !!!

lmao



Misfit

Thank you Misfit. No harm.

I agree though. Humour can be an essential part of recovery when dealing with emotions this strong. After the loss of my family member, I really grew tired of people being so polite with me or asking me how I was feeling. I can remember when someone who I have a lot of respect for came to me, looked me dead in the eye and cracked some lame joke. It was just what I needed, some good laughter.