How did Atta's passport actually survive?

Originally posted by timeless test
That's why I referenced the exhibition data. 54,000 items of personal property were recovered. How where and when I don't know, or how many came from the plane but it's not as if this was the only item found.

WHEN were thes items found? I am gussing during the CLEANUP, not during the disaster itself, it only makes sense. The passport stroy would be far less suspicious if they had not found it within hours and found it months later during the cleanup.

Neat how they had evidence to implicate Atta so quickly...



[edit on 28-9-2006 by Slap Nuts]

Originally posted by FredT

* cough * Mossad plant. * cough *

I don't think you're far off. The discovery of this item was just too TOO coincidental. I think it's pathetic that the world has come to this.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
WHEN were thes items found? I am gussing during the CLEANUP, not during the disaster itself, it only makes sense. The passport stroy would be far less suspicious if they had not found it within hours and found it months later during the cleanup

I agree entirely. Yes, the items were found over a period of time whilst the passport was apparently found on the day, (although it was not Atta's). We can only really consider how "convenient" this was if we know how many personal items were found from the plane and how many on the day itself.

If, (for extreme example), 25 passports were found on the day then this one doesn't look particularly exceptional at all. Without that information we're just guessing.

Originally posted by 123143

Originally posted by FredT

* cough * Mossad plant. * cough *

I don't think you're far off. The discovery of this item was just too TOO coincidental. I think it's pathetic that the world has come to this.

So you're saying Mossad planted it to draw attention to the fact the owner of the passport couldnt have been on the plane? In which case, whose side are Mossad on?

If there was a 'conspiracy' and the passport was deliberately planted then whoever planted it must have a) known about the conspiracy and b) been opposed to the conspiracy. They would also have had to get the passport in order to plant it ....

The more you think about it, the more complex it gets. Coincidental survival through unknown miracle becomes an increasingly more probable explanation ....

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by 123143

Originally posted by FredT

* cough * Mossad plant. * cough *

I don't think you're far off. The discovery of this item was just too TOO coincidental. I think it's pathetic that the world has come to this.

So you're saying Mossad planted it to draw attention to the fact the owner of the passport couldnt have been on the plane? In which case, whose side are Mossad on?

If there was a 'conspiracy' and the passport was deliberately planted then whoever planted it must have a) known about the conspiracy and b) been opposed to the conspiracy. They would also have had to get the passport in order to plant it ....

The more you think about it, the more complex it gets. Coincidental survival through unknown miracle becomes an increasingly more probable explanation ....

Well the Dancing Isrealis who were caught made quotes that indicated that they knew about the attacks beforehand. Even two Jewish workers indicated that they recieve text messages about the attacks two hours prior to the event and actually left the building. How come they didn't relay the message to security or the other employees who were told to go back after the WTC 1 was hit?

Here's a question for the group.

Do you think there's any chance that the passport was in the building after the crash, and then ended up on the street?

I tend to think that it must has followed the engine & other debris that immediately exited the building. It had much less chance of getting burnt in that scenario, BUT, it also would have been covered by all the debris that was to follow. This would not lend itself to being discovered right away. Just some thoughts. . .

I still want to search the net when I get out of work for more info. Thanx for all the replies-

2smooth4ya

Even two Jewish workers indicated that they recieve text messages about the attacks two hours prior to the event and actually left the building. How come they didn't relay the message to security or the other employees who were told to go back after the WTC 1 was hit?

Any links? Where did you find this info?

Originally posted by Essan
So you're saying Mossad planted it to draw attention to the fact the owner of the passport couldnt have been on the plane? In which case, whose side are Mossad on?

It's not that complicated. The idea (and Andy, I hope you don't think I'm being patronising here, you're a smart guy as I've seen from your other posts) is that it's a false flag operation, so there have to be "clues" left around to throw attention on the alleged perpetrators. One of the things that bothered me about the events of that day was how quickly the whole thing was tied up: the passport was found, there was, if I recall correctly, a whole raft of incriminating paperwork found in the boot of a car (how did they know which car to search? Did they search every car in the airport?) that same day...

I even read somewhere that, with all the stories of hijackers going to Florida strip clubs, that not only were they going to strip clubs but they were leaving copies of the Koran behind. Now that, for example, when you think about it, doesn't make sense, really. Either they're serious Muslims pretending to be secularised, in which case they don't leave Korans, which would make them look like Muslims, or they're genuinely secularised Muslims, in which case they're just going to strip clubs to get a lap dance and not to spread the Good Word. Going to strip clubs and leaving copies of the Koran everywhere smacks of someone trying to draw attention to themselves.

As for the idea of it being a Mossad plot, it's not inconceivable that they could have had some involvement. We've got the rejoicing Israelis story (and a lot more besides) to account for, plus the fact that on at least one of the planes, there was an Israeli agent sat in the seats directly behind the hijackers. (I'm sorry, I can't remember which plane or the names of the hijackers.)

And if the passport (whew! back on topic) was used as ID to board the plane, then maybe, just maybe, there's a note of the passport number somewhere, in which case it should be theoretically possible to compare that passport number with that of the one "found" by the WTC just after the crash but before the collapse.

Mind you, having now published that idea, it's entirely possible that those records will either be destroyed or corrected before any of the public get to know about it.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
2smooth4ya

Even two Jewish workers indicated that they recieve text messages about the attacks two hours prior to the event and actually left the building. How come they didn't relay the message to security or the other employees who were told to go back after the WTC 1 was hit?

Any links? Where did you find this info?

I'd guess 2smooth4ya is talking about the Odigo message, or at least Alex Jones fictional retelling of it. (Jones' version: Odigo employees flee the building after getting a message. Reality: Odigo in Israel received the message, which a manager later said was general and didn't specify the WTC as a target, and they do nothing until after the attacks. Google for "Odigo message" for more.)

It’s a card rather than paper, and wasn’t ejected from the building, but this does demonstrate that not everything was incinerated. And it’s not alone. There are similar reports from the other crash scenes, including a drivers licence and luggage tag recovered from Flight 77 and even more from Flight 93.

United Airlines Flight 93 slammed into the earth Sept. 11 near Shanksville, Somerset County, at more than 500 mph, with a ferocity that disintegrated metal, bone and flesh. It took more than three months to identify the remains of the 40 passengers and crew, and, by process of elimination, the four hijackers...

But searchers also gathered surprisingly intact mementos of lives lost.

Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site.
www.post-gazette.com...

There’s some support for the idea from other crash sites, then, but of course surviving the initial impact is only one problem. Others ask how could one passport be recovered so quickly from the rubble of the trade centre collapses? Fortunately the answer is a simple one. It wasn’t. Here’s the official account of what happened.

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.
Page 40
www.9-11commission.gov...

The suggestion here is that the passport was found amongst the debris on the street.
Other accounts certainly suggest some parts of the plane were left outside the building.

On the ground, they saw an odd shape. Reiss looked closer: It was the nose gear of an airplane...

A part of the landing gear landed five blocks south
Page 20, “102 Minutes”
Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn

After the first crash, the debris, plane parts and body parts were all over the area.
zibili.com...

I believe such items can escape intact. Remember that in the videos, you see the explosion go through the building. Thats enough to push many debris outward and survive from the explosion. And remember, why just Atta's passport? Why not more passports of the hijackers to solidfy the evidence that it was Muslim terrorist? Why just one?

I have seen some wierd stuff survive in a fire. I read once that a thin film of grease on metal will protect it from a nuclear blast. The problem with the passport is the fact that with all that was going on, someone picked it up (a New Yorker at that ) and handed it to a policeman/person/woman. These are things that just dont happenon an emergency scene, especially one as big as 911.

Originally posted by deltaboy

And remember, why just Atta's passport? Why not more passports of the hijackers to solidfy the evidence that it was Muslim terrorist? Why just one?

Indeed. But what about the other passengers? Didn't they have passports too? Or maybe they didn't?

On initial impact it rode the precusion of the explosion out the building.
The gov. already knew who it was they needed no plant they had Clintons report about Osama bin ladin.

Originally posted by HUNTER1967
On initial impact it rode the precusion of the explosion out the building.

This is deeply scientific and well sourced.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Others ask how could one passport be recovered so quickly from the rubble of the trade centre collapses? Fortunately the answer is a simple one. It wasn’t. Here’s the official account of what happened.

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.
Page 40
www.9-11commission.gov...

I don't get this part. They say that it wasn't recovered quickly from the site but then say the official record is that it was? What are they trying to prove/spin here? Bolded part by me: Sounds pretty darn quickly to me. How long of a time lapse was there between Tower 2 getting hit and failing? That's pretty quick in my book.

Originally posted by deltaboy

The suggestion here is that the passport was found amongst the debris on the street.
Other accounts certainly suggest some parts of the plane were left outside the building.

On the ground, they saw an odd shape. Reiss looked closer: It was the nose gear of an airplane...

A part of the landing gear landed five blocks south
Page 20, “102 Minutes”
Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn

After the first crash, the debris, plane parts and body parts were all over the area.
zibili.com...

I believe such items can escape intact. Remember that in the videos, you see the explosion go through the building. Thats enough to push many debris outward and survive from the explosion. And remember, why just Atta's passport? Why not more passports of the hijackers to solidfy the evidence that it was Muslim terrorist? Why just one?

They obviously only needed one to implicate them....why need more?

My problem with this whole mess of the passport isn't that it could have survived or not. We all know stranger things have happened. It is that someone (guy in business suit 30 years old) would take the time to sift through the debris (and yes...even if it came out of the building with the nose gear, engine etc. it would still be in some kind of debris). Why would someone start sifting through debris to find anything....let alone the incriminating evidence that it was Muslim Highjackers?

Let me get this straight.....you are in the middle of 9/11...instead of watching the buildings with everyone else, you start to sift through building, plane and paper debris? What are you looking for? BTW, since this was a crime scene....I find it very inappropriate for this officer not to take the name of this individual who was illegally sifting through a crime scene.

Originally posted by Hellmutt
Indeed. But what about the other passengers? Didn't they have passports too? Or maybe they didn't?

As far as I know, it was a continental flight not needing a passport. That's why no one else would have theirs with them. Unless, like the guy who's passport it was, you needed it for ID purposes.

Originally posted by deltaboy
And remember, why just Atta's passport? Why not more passports of the hijackers to solidfy the evidence that it was Muslim terrorist? Why just one?

I've often wondered why Atta gets all the attention. He's the only hijacker whose name is fairly common knowledge. I can't think of any of the others names myself. Could it be because his name is convieniently Mohammed which makes you think of the prophet of Islam?

Just thinking out loud - Mark

That's actually a very good question. You might be on to something. Even though it wasn't Atta's pasport, we still hear to this day about Atta's passport? I guess I was wrong in the other thread about it being Atta's....sorry for the misinfo.

I dunno.

I would say its possible for it to survive.

Remember after the impacts how there was paper in the air from the planes impacting the floors and pushing everything out.

those pages were not instantly incinerated.

This particular passport was probably found in the same fashion that the magic bullet was found on the WRONG stretcher at the hospital after JFK was assasinated.


Seriously, it all stinks to high heaven to me.