New Video: 9/11 Mysteries

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum


Why don't you address my challege Valhall?

I'm not sure if you're asking me to spend my money to prove other people's theories, whether you're insinuating that other people having the right to have theories is dependent on me spending my money, or if you're begging me to spend my money on your behalf.

All three ways - the answer is no. I don't have a horse in this race. But I'll defend all the other ponies against people like you who want to accuse them of being un-American simply because they question the official story.

The highest form of patriotism is an earnest questioning of one's government.

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." - James Baldwin



[edit on 9-24-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Not legitimate - Pointing your finger and accusing YOUR government (AKA fellow Americans) of mass murder or is behind some deliberate plot to kill its own citizens and not doing anything about it (except bitch about it on a BBS)

Why don't you address my challege Valhall?

To be fair that doesn't have to be the only scenario. I doubt this is true and it is not backed by anything but I remember my first thoughts when watching the WTC coming down on September 11th. My first thought was that the powers that be were worried that the buildings were going to 'topple' onto the city and so 'pulled the plug', making it a safe collapse instead.

For some reason I just assumed at that moment that buildings of that size would have explosives in them as a fail safe, and regardless of their good intentions the government covered it up as it just does not look good and the public wouldn't understand.

Of course that's got to be BS but it seemed pretty rational to me at the time. My point is however that their intentions don't necessarily have to be for evil.


[edit on 24-9-2006 by John Nada]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by xpert11
why couldnt have the impact of the plane crashing into the building cause windows to break on lower floors ?

Because they didn't even bust all the windows on the impacted floors. The fireballs knocked a lot out, but that was about it. It was allagedly a fireball that traveled down at least one elevator, and hit both the lobby and the basements AND set someone on fire IN an elevator. Considering only one elevator in each building went the whole distance up and down... something isn't right.

But for the impacts alone, the trusses provided a lot of "cushioning" from lateral forces on the buildings, and there were rubber dampers, etc., so significant impact force wouldn't be transferred through the entire buildings.

I am not sure, but maybe someone can clarify this, but isn't the layout of the elevator shafts set up that there isn't an express all the way up to the points of impacts, but just expresses to the sky lobbies where one has to transfer to a local elevator for each section? If this is the case then how would a fireball travel from top to bottom of the building all the way to the basement or lobby?

Edit: Sorry I didn't read the part where you said there is one express from top to bottom initially, but go ahead and answer anything you like about it.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by ben91069]

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Originally posted by grimreaper797
left behind if you can provide an alternate story for what happen when the titanic sunk, or can show multiple gaps in the "facts" of what happen, then I would be all ears, just link me to the thread you start.

Right, this is the standard of evidence for conspiracies.

what i ask for here is for a gap in the official story, not what your story is. This is not about evidence toward any certain conspiracy, just that one has happened.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
hey if you have a provable theory that a bomb was actually on the ship, be my guest and provide all the evidence. Until that happens, well I guess the official story is the only one around.

This is the standard of evidence in the real world.

This is a direct theory, so it should be supported with facts to back up the bomb theory. This is not about proving the official story wrong, but proving your theory right. So yes, it needs more then just proving the official story wrong.

It is also the standard of evidence that ALL theories about the WTC should be held accountable to.

yes it is, but I see no problem in asking questions and proposing the idea. You proposed the idea that the titanic had a bomb that caused it to sink. Ok thats fine, you may ask some questions about the official story that made you believe that something else happened.

This video does push the idea of demolition, but it asks questions, that if were answered, would shut down the theory. I see nothing wrong with that.

The problem is when some people like to hold the official story to the second standard, but let any conspiracy theory get away with "multiple gaps in the facts".

Im not saying that any conspiracy doesn't have some gaps, Im merely stating I have no reason to believe the official version. I didn't say I believe demolition, I do believe that the video asked questions that should be answered. It did show that it would make more sense if there were explosives in the building. That doesn't prove the theory, just makes more sense then the official theory that defies physics rather then the conspiracy which defies logic. Logic can always be wrong, physics isn't so much.

Negative proof is will never prove demolition or young earth creation.

agreed, but the lack of proof thus far of demolition does not mean its not possible.

If NIST is wrong about how they fell, that does not mean that the towers had bombs in them by default.

no but it does make sense, and thats a start. If they cant prove it in the end, then hey maybe there weren't. But as it stands right now, it makes more sense then the official story. So even though Im not siding with the demolition, it makes more sense then the official story.

So, while critisizing the official story is fine, it really serves no purpose when the alternative theory put forward has more problems than the official one.

no it doesn't. its problems lie within comprehension of how it could have been done, rather then the actual physics which is where the official story has its problems. Yes the alternative theory has many gaps, its gaps are found mostly within how the demo charges got there, and how to prove they got there. The gaps the official version has, is how the towers could have physically fallen.

To me the gap in the official story may not be as many, but it doesnt have to be because the few gaps are so big it brings it right to its knees.

Or as it seems is often the case, there is no alternative theory.

no there are just so many different theories because its a matter of logic and such. Everyone has there own "idea" of how the demo charges may have got there, and how they went about it. That why you have so many different theories. Its not a problem with demo charges as it is with how they got there and who did it.

Its the logic that we cannot agree on yet.

Here you go Freedom_for_sum:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt

So you can just consider all these questioning folks patriots and morally untreasonable folks.

By the way, did you not notice this is a conspiracy website when you got here?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Not legitimate - Pointing your finger and accusing YOUR government (AKA fellow Americans) of mass murder or is behind some deliberate plot to kill its own citizens and not doing anything about it (except bitch about it on a BBS)

and damn proud of it too, thank you.

sorry for the one line post but that needed a response of some sort to let him know im glad to be it.

Originally posted by Valhall
All three ways - the answer is no. I don't have a horse in this race. But I'll defend all the other ponies against people like you who want to accuse them of being un-American simply because they question the official story.

You're obfuscating Valhall. I never said people who question their government are un-American or that they shouldn't question their government or the official story. I said that people who accuse, because they believe it's true, their government was/is behind the mass-murder of its citizens and do nothing about it, are un-American.

You know, as well as I, that there are people all around here who, without question, believe President Bush and the government were behind the 911 attacks. It's videos, such as the one at the start of this thread, whose sole purpose is to add to the confusion and do nothing to support truth; that feed into that paranoia.

Here's a question for ya Valhall:

Do you believe the government was behind the 911 attacks?

If you answer yes--then you have a horse in this race.

If you answer maybe--you have a horse in this race.

If you answer no--be aware that you probably have neighbors who do believe this is true and you, therefore, still have a horse in this race. So whether or not you admit it; everyone who is American has a horse in this race!!

And for those who believe the government is behind the 911 attacks AND do nothing legally about it: You are un-American and I'd prefer to not share the same airspace with you. Please do everyone a favor and leave.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Not legitimate - Pointing your finger and accusing YOUR government (AKA fellow Americans) of mass murder or is behind some deliberate plot to kill its own citizens and not doing anything about it (except bitch about it on a BBS)

and damn proud of it too, thank you.

sorry for the one line post but that needed a response of some sort to let him know im glad to be it.

So grimreaper797: Do you believe your government was behind the 911 attacks? If so; what are you doing about it?

Interesting and very well done. My only concern is really the same one that involves all other pieces like this including loose change...i.e. Considering the number of people that would have to been involved to have pulled something like this off it would be next to impossible to keep it secret during the planning and execution stage much less for five plus years now. Unless like the kings of old, they had the planners and builders of their tombs executed and buried with them.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So grimreaper797: Do you believe your government was behind the 911 attacks? If so; what are you doing about it?

Im unsure about 9/11, but they have already done mass murder. They have already killed many of their own citizens, and 9/11 or not, they have done it.

plain and simple, even without 9/11, our government is still by far corrupt and murderous, to the world and its own people.

If they were behind the attacks, just add one more event to the book of ways they have screwed the people of this country and the world.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So grimreaper797: Do you believe your government was behind the 911 attacks? If so; what are you doing about it?

Im unsure about 9/11, but they have already done mass murder. They have already killed many of their own citizens, and 9/11 or not, they have done it.

plain and simple, even without 9/11, our government is still by far corrupt and murderous, to the world and its own people.

If they were behind the attacks, just add one more event to the book of ways they have screwed the people of this country and the world.

Uh Huh; And, as an American citizen who is concern for your fellow compatriots; What are you doing about it? Have you at least called your state's Senator to voice concern about our murderous government? Have you written the local news media to let them know the evidence you have showing the government is engaged in the serial killing of its citizens and is actively engaged in targeting innocent citizens of other nations?

If you haven't--why haven't you? Why are you wasting your time here? ATS isn't going to put the government on the spot to answer to your allegations.

You say the government has "screwed" you. How or in what way?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Uh Huh; And, as an American citizen who is concern for your fellow compatriots; What are you doing about it? Have you at least called your state's Senator to voice concern about our murderous government? Have you written the local news media to let them know the evidence you have showing the government is engaged in the serial killing of its citizens and is actively engaged in targeting innocent citizens of other nations?

If you haven't--why haven't you? Why are you wasting your time here? ATS isn't going to put the government on the spot to answer to your allegations.

You say the government has "screwed" you. How or in what way?

written every congressmen in the state of new jersey (even though Im not a resident of thr districtd outside mine, so they had no obligation to even bother to return a letter). I have written some congressmen outside my state. I have written to both my senators about numerous issues. I have probably written more letters to government officials then to any other people combine.

funny, what way HASNT the government screwed us? money wise they screw us all the time. Lets talk about the murders first. Cointelpro ring any bells? It specifically states the goals were to disrupt the group and KILL the leaders of such groups. Assassinations. The CIA has put us in positions that have gotten many americans killed. The US government has provided 3rd world countries with all the weapons it needed to kill off so many people, knowingly. Not to mention all the BS wars we have been in since WW2, mostly for profits. The murders around the world are average at this point for america.

The murders in our own country, well they try to be more discrete about those, but even then we still catch them in the acts sometimes. But hell if you wanted to talk about just screwing us, well you want me to just write a book and you can pick it up when Im finished?


Either way, 9/11 done by government or not, we can put a large majority of problems we have no on their actions. Murders and illegal overthrows of governments in the world by the US have lead to many current problems.
If 9/11 was done by the government, and its proved, I will be for the immediate abolishment of the current government and for a political reform.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by grimreaper797]

I saw this video a week ago and it is really scary.

Did someone already watch the video "Who killed John O'neill"

video.google.com...

This is also one of the latest movies posted on google video. I think together with this video, these are the two best ones.

[edit on 24/9/2006 by rai76]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum


Here's a question for ya Valhall:

Do you believe the government was behind the 911 attacks?

If you answer yes--then you have a horse in this race.

If you answer maybe--you have a horse in this race.

My answer is no.

If you answer no--be aware that you probably have neighbors who do believe this is true and you, therefore, still have a horse in this race. So whether or not you admit it; everyone who is American has a horse in this race!!

This is true. This is why I continue to collect the data about 9/11 and why I will assist any one else attempting to do the same. Because my fear is that, though I have seen no convincing evidence the government was involved in the attack, I have seen irrefutable evidence they allowed, either intentionally or through sheer incompetence, the attacks to happen. And I have seen too much information that makes me suspect they are attempting to cover up just how unacceptable their incompetence was. If I ever find convincing evidence they INTENTIONALLY allowed the attacks to happen, I'm sure I'll become much more of an activist, but that hasn't happened yet. I also believe they have lied to the American people about certain things, events, timelines, etc. concerning 9/11. And that is unacceptable. And I am an activist in that regard. I'm fighting their lies by researching, bringing data I find, and assisting others in revealing the facts that their words contradict. The only weapon against a lie is the truth.

And for those who believe the government is behind the 911 attacks AND do nothing legally about it: You are un-American and I'd prefer to not share the same airspace with you. Please do everyone a favor and leave.

This is true, but only if you're not trying to be the sole decider of what a person should "do". First and foremost in any endeavour is to spread the information. One person "doing something" on the White House steps is an insane person...an informed populace who demands action from their representatives is the most dangerous force a government founded on democracy will ever face.

So maybe you need to lighten up and let these people discuss their theories. I've seen people from both sides of this topic - debunkers and theorists alike - be accepting of information that made them have to adjust their position. (I tend to avoid close-minded people, no matter what they're preaching.) Intelligent discussion and fact-sharing is the only hope any of us have - no matter what the truth turns out to be.

[edit on 9-24-2006 by Valhall]

This documentary made at least 5 errors/misconceptions. I am sure Howard will be more and happy to point them out.

I am a full skeptic of the OFFICIAL 9/11 story, and I think that this video is very good overall. Alot better than Loose Change in presenting evidence.

I won't go through some of the mistakes I saw, Howard can do that. And we can have a very interesting thread on it.

I await the creation of a new thread Howard or someone else that can spot these little errors.

Being I am part of the 9/11 Truth movement I myself will not spend my time attacking it. I am sure as I said above, Howard will.

HowardRoark hasn't been around much lately, and he'd be pointing out the wrong errors anyway.

Even if this documentary has errors, like citing the official collapse times or whatever, I don't see much point in coming down on it and beating it upside the face when the overall presentation is the strongest I've seen yet. There's nothing wrong with being as objective as possible, but let's not become distractingly tight with what information we feel should be presented.

Take the collapse times as an example. If people really take that much of an issue with it, then they would also have to take issue with the official reports, that all claim those collapse times. If people don't take issue with it, then it doesn't matter anyway. And either way, it's not going to hurt the overall push for the truth and another investigation. Better information is there for those that want it.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by bsbray11]

Here we go again some old conspiracies...

The film is totally bias. Even the witness said herself that when the plane hit the tower that it went through to the other side. Wouldn't u think if parts of the plane went through to the other side, then it would have knock out some if not most of the support frames on those floors? Not to mention the fire and jet fuel.

When the towers callaspe, did it not started to callaspe where the plane hit? Not from the top, but where the planes hit. Watch it again ladies and germs.

And the door analogy was so stupid. A person going through a door is not the same as 1/4 of the twin tower going through it. Sure there is resistance, but the force was so great that resistance didn't really effect the freefall.

If u debunkers want the average American to believe you than start explain something better.

Here I'll help u out. Explain this:

How do you explain the highjacked plans and the civillians on them? Did some CIA opperative hijack the plan then killed himself with a bunch of people? Explain to me how the government was behind that. Make it believable.

Second, why the hell would the goverment need to use explosives on the twin towers? Wouldn't a plane crashing into the building be enough for America to go to war? The goverment should have just nuke themselves and blamed it on terrorist to make a statement.

Third, has anyone seen the movie obsession? Check it out a youtube.com "obsession radical Islam". Debunkers say that the general public needs to open their eyes about 9/11 being a inside job. How about open your eyes to the people that want to kill us all. They don't give a damn about America. IF the could they would do anything to kill us all. TO them it's Islam or die, period. From what i see is that the chant Death to America all day everyday. If your sitting fighting among each other and not preparing. Well all i have to say is your in for a real supprise.

Here are some things to remember.

The North Tower was hit first, with most of the explosion inside of the bldg, the South Tower was hit second yet most of the explosion appears on the outside of the bldg.

The North Tower was hit more to the center.

YET the South Tower falls first? IF the fire weakened the Steel Structurally, wouldn't the North Tower fall first, since most of the explosion was directly inside the bldg and it burned longer?

Some argue that the South Tower was hit different, below where the North Tower was hit, but again....The North Tower was hit with more of the damage hitting the center and inside, so if anything the Core of the North Tower should have been more compromised.

OK...

I saw the Video.....there are too many unanswered questions that are left here and a number of inaccuracies in the narration...

1. Although steel does not burn, it does bend and warp and lose its strength when heated... so combine the heat of the fires, the damage from the impacts and you have the needed components for a collapse to occur.

2. All structures, no matter the size or height are mathamatical equations specifically intended to defy gravity, remove parts of the equation and collapse can occur. The more parts of the equation removed, the more likelyhood of collapse.

3. This rings true more so in these structures because of type of construction used. In addition to having an exoskeleton, each floor was comprised of lightweight steel bar joist construction. On top of this was metal floors with poured precast concrete. Each floor designed to carry a specific load. Each Load bearing floor is designed to bear and evenly distribute the weight downward where gravity is pulling it. If you remove ANY of the load bearing capabilities of that floor (The truss sections) Collapse is almost a certainty. In other words, All of the components of the Building have to be intact. When the Planes struck the towers, this was the beginning of a series of events that brought down these structures.

4. The video itself Does not answer all of the questions.... we see what is happening on the exterior of the building, it is unknown what is happening on the underside of the skin of the building.

5. The Chief reason the South Tower fell before the North again goes back to Gravity. Being hit on floors 78 through 81, the Structual components of the South Tower were forced now to carry a larger load. The Impact on the South Tower also occurred on a corner of the Building taking out more of the skeleton on 2 sides of the building. the North Tower was more of a central hit on higher floors and there was less of a load pulling down on that structures failed components.

Check out this and maybe it will give you a better idea about what I am talking about.

vincentdunn.com...

Hope this answers some questions you may have

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Uh Huh; And, as an American citizen who is concern for your fellow compatriots; What are you doing about it? Have you at least called your state's Senator to voice concern about our murderous government? Have you written the local news media to let them know the evidence you have showing the government is engaged in the serial killing of its citizens and is actively engaged in targeting innocent citizens of other nations?

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe people here are still forming opinions on what happened? That they are doing research? That they are learning through debate? Just because you believe something doesn't mean 1) there is strict evidence for your belief and 2) that your beliefs can't change.

Example of number one, do you believe your mother loves you? Give me strict irrefutable evidence. Harder than it sounds eh?

What actions have you taken to get the government to release more solid evidence? The burden of proof should be on THEM to tell us the truth ... not the other way around.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
If you haven't--why haven't you? Why are you wasting your time here? ATS isn't going to put the government on the spot to answer to your allegations.

There are people who believe in a conspiracy and are doing things to try and uncover it. Many of these people are on these forums. Just because they don't scream out in every thread their intentions or affiliations doesn't mean they are not doing things away from ATS.

ATS is one of, if not THE top conspiracy-related set of forums on the net. We come here to come to conclusions with intelligent people - and to discuss things so as to learn more and uncover the truth about events, situations, and ourselves.

Denying ignorance - it does not mean "uncover the lies of the Bush administration!!!". It means denying all that is not truth, whatever that may be.

EDIT: my apologies Val, I just restated what you had basically already said (but I hadn't read before this post)

[edit on 25-9-2006 by Fiverz]