For all the Athiests.........

Originally posted by dominicus
Mel,
Can you prove that mysticism has given us nothing of use in the real world? Didn't I just point out in my last post that the founding founders of most modern day academic fields professed mystical experiences, which would have had a direct or co-existing relationship between the seeker and the findings???? Of course non-mystics also have great break-throughs, but how are we to know that most great break-throughs haven't been found on verges of mysticism????

I think you are mixing being religious and mysticism. I could also ask 'How are we to know that all break-throughs are not derived from invisible time-travelling aliens implanting thoughts in scientists minds?'

In the past almost all natural philosophers were religious, they believed in a mechanistic rule-based universe, god being the creator and maintainer of these laws. However, in no way did actual mystic experiences underlie their scientific findings. Just plain old empiricism and the rational thought-based approaches driven by a need to understand the work of god.

Newton is a great example. He did fervently believe in the abrahamic god, he was also a heretic in his time. He secretly denied the trinity which was a crime until the 1800's (do you see the zeitgeist these people lived in?). His writings suggest that in the area of theology, the scientific empirical methods must be applied. He used the bible to make prophetic claims, but it was all through reading the bible, not mystical experiences. It was empiricism applied to the bible. At no point do we see him claim mystical experiences being the source for his findings. In fact, his work on alchemy would be expected to have been successful if he was communicating with god and the supernatural, it wasn't.

A minority of his work was focused on proper science, the rest was theology and alchemy. Strange that he is really only remembered for his science

Alchemy was an esoteric attempt at studying nature. It failed as a whole. Chemistry and the scientific method was its only useful by-product, it needs no mysticism. The science of chemistry is much more successful than alchemy ever was. Bacon, Boyle, Laviosier etc all depended an experimental observation, not mysticism. Since dropping the alchemy baggage we have moved to an understanding that would amaze the likes of Bacon et al. Mysticism leads to bad science.

Einstein himself professed many times that the secret in his findings was being able to have a childlike view of things, or a kind of playful innocent and imaginitive observation. All the mystics including Christ himself spoke of the importance of such a view. The connection is obvious, plain, and simple!!!!!

Einstein quote; “The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives.”

Subjective feelngs and guesswork are always the precursor building blocks to all findings.

No, observations are the precursor.

Then we can apply the rational mind in an attempt to understand what underlies the observations. There are well-known claims of scientists solving issues in their work through dreams (kekule and the benzene ring - probably false) and altered states of mind, usually drug-based (Crick, '___', and DNA - no way to know if true, he denied it). If you had ever sat with a strange set of data and had little understanding why it is so, then you would know that getting out the box is a good idea, you can become so consumed by it, your thinking is restricted.

The rationale behind '___' and hallucinogens is that is allows a different approach to solving the problem. It is a thinking tool. There are claims that many in Crick's time used it and some researchers still use these methods to this day. No gods required

Science uses philosophy, in fact, science was based on natural philosophy.

My interpretation of the Einstein quote is that in science we remain in a state of awe and amazement, entering areas of ignorance. We never know all. If we can maintain the child-like drive to question and learn, science is easy.

You seem to want to make such strange and tenuous connections between science and theology. Some scientists are theists/deists and are motivated to understand god's laws of the universe, others need no theism to be motivated to understand the natural laws of the universe. Both are motivated by a search for truth and understanding, neither use mysticism.

You usually want the facts to fit the preconceptions. When they don't fit, it is easier to ignore the facts than to change the preconceptions.

Yeah, we see it all the time in the theologically-minded

[edit on 20-12-2006 by melatonin]

Shauny,
The arkaine girl was 3-4 when she started talking about God. Did you know how to read at that age? I don't know any kids that are capable of reading and comprehending such things at that age.

I'm saying that the majority of people reach God through the precepts of the Bible, and that it's the fastest way to do so (if there are other ways). I came from a Buddhist background through college devoid of any experiences, then in all genuineness got an obvious sign telling me to go the Biblical route, and wallah....enlightenment 14 months later. As far as the Bible being the only way (I'm still on the fence about that one for several reasons, such as God being no respector of persons, Loving all equally, and mystic experiential simalarities across the globe, background, and creed). But that has no impact on any of my arguments.

Going to church, singing, and praying can and has lead some to Enlightenment....... but we have to look at the interior of the person doing these things. If it was done out of habitual parental reinforcement processes then it is simply something that a person grows up doing like brushing their teeth and going to work. If it is a mere habit then it is treated that way. I don't know your sincerity level in those acts, so I can't really argue about these things with you. But I can argue that if you try seeking out all over again, with all of your being, individed attention, and all your might.....you will get a personal answer from God and reach enlightenment in due time. Those that it took decades to get "there" will tell you themselves that it took them that long because they never realized certain things that they themselves through free-will were or were not doing..... such as the sincereity level, unchanging tempers, etc.

The way to get there is to acknowledge God through Christ, ask him to come into your life, and start working on self mastery precepts that are in the Bible keeping your attention, focus, and thoughts on the things of God. Anything that you consider a bad habit (temper, false thoughts, depression, negative reactions, disrespect, etc is mastering you becasue you let it play out within you. Acknowledging Christ, asking him to come into your life, and mastering negativities will get you "there" as long as you keep going through this work.

Along with deep contemplation/meditation, in due time of doing this work you will come across windows of reality shifts. For example your driving, at work, or watching some tele.....when all of sudden you have a deja-vu like intense reality shift. These are windows from God that you are on the right track. When you get "there"...those reality shifts will be your one and only reality, and that's when you are spiritually awakened and really alive. PM me if you like and I can tell you more things that I can't necessarily discuss in the open.

All those other people that God spoke to in the Bible also went through the genuine search for God and prepared themselves. It took them some time as well. The point being that, you too can experience similar if not the same experiences that are written about in the Bible, except in the modern day of now!!!!!!!!!!

In primary school I also did those things (pray, sing, church) and felt nothing, and was an athiest/agnostic for quite some time afterwards. Still, your body is the church. God dwells in you and so to discover this, you don't necessarily need to be at church every sunday. Everyday should be devoted to God as is sunday........you see how much man has twisted things and made pure truth look like foolishness? Yet the esoteric reality of God is there and is inviting all to see for themselves.

The foot thing, lol....... my point is, I will humble myself before you and show you my complete and utter respect for being spirituall awakened!!!!!
.............

Mel,
If alchemy failed and we have moved on since....I suggest you take a closer look at the substance called "Ormus" which was regularly manufactured by the alchemists and considered a precursor to many different formulas, including turning lead into Gold. Here we are in 2006/2007, and modern day science can't even figure out what this substance is, let alone successfully measure it. That definately says allot in my book!!!!

We need to explain all findings in a empirical and rational way for everyone else to understand. So why is it that there are quite a number of people world-wide that claim to operate beyond this scope, and since it is beyond how do you possibly explain in those terms, that beyond...let alone show it to some-one else?????

Besides the miracles Christ performed, the 500+ witnesses that saw this (many of whom were killed for failing to deny seeing these acts), the greatest period of number and substance of literature written revolving this event.....more than ever in history, archaelogical evidences, and so on. How can I directly show you an infinite God if your empirical and rational approach operate on a finite basis???

I'm saying that following the Bible's precepts, transform you into a being that can finally for the first time in your life, allow you to comprehend the infinite!!!!!!!! Empirical and rational finite boundaries only work so far, and to say that there is nothing beyond these boundaries would be absurd!!!!!!

Yes, my point exactly with Newton being considered a heretic. All the mystics of their day were considered heretics, and yet they were proclaiming the true way to know God with direct experience that has universal similarities. It was the church and politics of the day that gave, and still give, Christianity a bad name. Just like then, also now we have very few people people claiming these direct experiences...and those that do steer clear, or keep their distance from the Christan majority knowing that they are not following the true way (hence the respected studies showing no difference in moral/ethic values between modern day Christians and non-christians.)

Most mystic names that I drop on these threads were considered in ways, heretics. In those events, the majority was wrong and at fault, while the minority was right. This can also apply to the scientific community. Any studies done on anything considered "psuedo-science" is automatically dismissed, scoffed at, and none of the well respected researchers will even touch anything closely associated with these fileds. Does that make these fields devoid of anything valuable for us to discover? Absolutely not!!!!!

Who says Newton's alchemy work wasn't successful? There are many things that we don't know, and we have to be careful of what history tells us, i.e. Columbus discovered America (which was already discovered by those living there, vikings, etc) It all depends on whose perspective your reading. Newton knew about "Ormus" through evidence that he practiced the modern day alchemic recipes of his peers !!!!!!!! (google: newton alchemy ormus)

What's stranger is that a select few prefer Newton's alchemy experiment's and theology over his sound science!!

Alchemy didn't fail if it produced chemistry and the scientific method as a byproduct, let alone substances that are as of yet scientifically unexpalinable, as well as claims of successful experiments that are mocked, laughed at, and considered myth by the majority!!!

If mysticism leads to bad science, then where are the new fields of scientific study being founded today, as in the way they were founded in their respected pasts? Before ever reaching spiritual enlightenment, I would have cared less about anything deeply scientific. Upon enlightenment, I had a new sense of seeing and observing having deep insights into the structures of atoms, dimensions, and an interconnectedness of it all. Discussing these insights with a friend, he was shocked to find that I knew nothing of QM, and after reading a few respected books in this field I came to learn that my deep mystical insights about the nature of things closely resembled the theories and findings of QM. This is prominant in all mystics, regardless of date!!!

Had QM not existed, you would have considered mine, or any mystics, insights as wild guesses and passed them up as insignificant speculations.

Yes, the precursors to all findings are observations, then subjective feelings and guesswork as to how they tie into certain things, if they are irrational then insert theory!!! I know of Crick's '___' use, dreams, and altered consciousness to come to conclusions. Having tried some of these substances myself in my early teenage years, they PALE in comparison to spiritual Enlightenment ( in which insights gained from the states you mention come naturally and are one of the additional permanant faculties!!!!) God required !!!!!

You said it best...."we never know all," as you gained from Einstien's quote. And so not knowing all, wouldn't you love to live in a state of being where you operate on higher and deeper levels of transcendent knowledge than most people do, and as the main supply line of such things, have an ineffable and direct relationship with a infinite supreme being????? You don't know what it's like being "there" and yet many do!!!!!

Yes, I agree with you that both thiest/athiest scientists make significant findings. I also claim it to be truth that there is a state of mind that is beyond your "box." The '___' that crick used, allows you to experience a small foggy window into the world that mystics operate in everyday naturally, and being that such a finding as DNA was discovered under such states....then look at the amount of limits that our scientific community is operating under!

It is plainly obvious that the mystic state has influenced our modern day findings in most academic fields, whether you would like to acknowledge so or not. This is especially true with philosophy and Plato, who claimed such things. I'm surprised nobody has attemted to write any literature about such obvious correlations, then again I'm not surprised because of the majority of the scientific community would consider such things "psuedo" only limiting themselves into their own "box" by doing so.

You know you can sit next to some Christian mystics and have experiences happen to you just by being in that person's presence!!!! Explain that!!!!



[edit on 21-12-2006 by dominicus

[edit on 21-12-2006 by dominicus]

Originally posted by dominicus
The arkaine girl was 3-4 when she started talking about God. Did you know how to read at that age? I don't know any kids that are capable of reading and comprehending such things at that age.

If she didn't have the knowledge to read such material, then she probably wouldn't have the ability to hear other people talk about it and then repeat what she's heard. In which case she would also not have the intelligence to be able to convey any such material.

You have to remember that this child can be described nothing less than a 'genius'. Mozart wrote his first compositions when he was five. Now could you write classical compositions when you were five? No I didn't think so. Yet, here we have an example of a person who did. So just maybe, this girl could read at a good enough level to pick up certain things about God. And fascinated by the stories, all she wanted to do was convey them. Maybe she wasn't great at talking about God, which is why she decided to paint to convey her message.

Originally posted by dominicus
Going to church, singing, and praying can and has lead some to Enlightenment....... but we have to look at the interior of the person doing these things. If it was done out of habitual parental reinforcement processes then it is simply something that a person grows up doing like brushing their teeth and going to work. If it is a mere habit then it is treated that way. I don't know your sincerity level in those acts, so I can't really argue about these things with you.

My parents never went. This was school orientated and I used to go to the Christian youth group with my friends. I still had the choice to sing hymns, becuase I didn't have to sing. I still had a choice to say the Lord's prayer, because I didn't have to say it. I still had the choice to go to church and the youth group, Because I didn't have to go. Therefore, I was there because I wanted to be, I sung because I wanted to sing, and I said prayers because I thought maybe there is someone up there and I'm saying thankyou.

However, at no point did I ever see anything more than that. Nothing spiritual etc. Obviously my mindset just isn't suited to religion. And I'm not going to believe just because you believe, or just because I might go to hell. If I'm going to hell, then I must be suited for that, as I'm not suited for religion, Christianity especially.

Originally posted by dominicus
But I can argue that if you try seeking out all over again, with all of your being, individed attention, and all your might.....you will get a personal answer from God and reach enlightenment in due time.

God can search for me. It's probably much easier for him to find me, than the other way round.

Originally posted by dominicus
Anything that you consider a bad habit (temper, false thoughts, depression, negative reactions, disrespect, etc is mastering you becasue you let it play out within you. Acknowledging Christ, asking him to come into your life, and mastering negativities will get you "there" as long as you keep going through this work.

The thing is, I see negatives as a well rounded person. If a person has no negatives and no 'bad habits' they would be very boring indeed. Trying to hide these parts of you would turn you in to someone you're not meant to be.

Hello Shaunybaby,

God can search for me. It's probably much easier for him to find me, than the other way round.

He has already, and imagine this, He has known you since before your arrival here in the flesh. He has given you a choice to remember or not. He already knows what you will choose ultimately, and has made provisions for your choices. I know, what a concept. Could you imagine playing a game of chess with over 6 billion pieces on the board presently, and knowing full well the outcome before you even moved the first piece, wild analogy I know, but it works for me. What intelligence would that require, talk about quantum computing, but then again we are talking about a being who has designed an entire universe and balanced everything within it to sustain a physical realm and life as we know or are experiencing it. Actually I believe quantum physicists are now discovering particles that are changing physically as they are percieved. I don't have the details or specifics but I am certain that I heard Depak Chopra describing these new sciences and the wonders the scientist are experiencing with their new discoveries.

The thing is, I see negatives as a well rounded person. If a person has no negatives and no 'bad habits' they would be very boring indeed. Trying to hide these parts of you would turn you in to someone you're not meant to be.

I don't think anyone here is trying to suggest they are free from any negative's. And from my own personal experience and honesty with God I am actually able to see more of my negative traits, face them and try to repair the damage if you will, something that is not so easy to do in this day and age with all the influences bombarding the individual in this modern world.

However, at no point did I ever see anything more than that. Nothing spiritual etc.

I have never seen an atom or a quark for that matter, yet scientist are seemingly having measurable results that are proving they exist. I think with matters involving God, one must learn to think on another level all together, and ultimatly one must choose to think in those terms. God thinking is a whole other dimension, or realm. It requires one to choose to accept the spiritual, and then persue it with the same discipline as a scientist would. Challenging what you believe to be true. I guess that is a giant leap of faith for some, but I know that it is a requirement to achieve the awareness dominicus is discribing. I can't say why you did not experience anything spiritual in your attemps as a youth, other than you were not ready to recieve what awaits you, or maybe God has a special plan for your grand awakening and it is on His time that you will arrive.
Just some thoughts, hope it helps.....

Dominicus keep up the work here you are indeed a blessing...

Originally posted by holidaystar1
He has already, and imagine this, He has known you since before your arrival here in the flesh. He has given you a choice to remember or not. He already knows what you will choose ultimately, and has made provisions for your choices.

Then I was destined to not be a believer. Sure, never say never. I'll try anything once, and I've tried religion. It wasn't for me. At no point in my future do I see myself 'needing' God in any way, shape or form.

Originally posted by holidaystar1
I don't think anyone here is trying to suggest they are free from any negative's. And from my own personal experience and honesty with God I am actually able to see more of my negative traits, face them and try to repair the damage if you will, something that is not so easy to do in this day and age with all the influences bombarding the individual in this modern world.

Not really what I was hitting on. It's more that to become enlightened, the person above was saying that you need to force these negatives out of your personality. The minute you do this, the minute you lose any sort of personality. Personality is what makes us individual and makes everyone so different. I'm not sure why anyone would want to rid any part of that, even the negatives.

I have no problem with someone's search for enlightenment, it's just not for me.

Holidystar,
thank you for your post, I couldn't have commented better than what you have said and I welcome your insight.

Shauny,
I'm not implying for you to lose your personality to get "there, but simply that a large percentage of our personalities aren't really who we truly are. So in one sense, the Bible (and the spritual work surrounding it) strips you of those false percentages allowing you to get to your true and real self, discovering in the process that the only thing that limited you in your life were those falses parts that you thought were really a part of who you are, but are now gone!!!! At this point, you have no limits, and many times neither does your perception.

Ego death is not loss of all personality, but only the bad parts that don't allow you to see truth. I joke, like music, art, have friends, etc and all after going through this process. Ego death simply strips you of all the things that block you from percieving the relationship between you, God, and existence itself!!!!

How do you truly know that you were destined to be an unbeliever? Perhaps this is a stage your going through and do you yourself know if it will last through-out your life? Things change. Through free-will, you have chosen to explore this side of life and reality. The side without God....... but regardless, he is still there. Your own empirical logic and reason is enough to see the limits of logic and reason and the astronomical odds that there is something beyond these faculties to be percieved.

Perhaps the form of religion you tried wasn't for you. There are an infinite multidue of ways to have your own form of relationship between you and God through Christ. Just cause everyone goes to chrch, sings hymns, and prays doesn't mean that it is your style of devotion to God. Like Holidaystar said that God knows you better than you know yourself and knew you even before you came to be.

When you work, it can be a devotion as if your working for God, when you help another, when you give freely, when you give thanks for things, when you simply think of him, meditation, literature, art, music, day-dreaming, speaking, writing, thinking, ........which ever one suits you, it can be your time and devotion with God. He knows this and now you know too. Every single moment is sacred as is existing itself. What-ever you do with God, you can extend it into an everlasting devotion so that every moment of every second is a conscious co-existence with the God who made everything and Loves you more than you can comprehend.

You see God co-exists with us whether we like or not, whether we see it or not, whether we believe or not. Wouldn't you rather like it, see it, and believe it....and along the way have these mystical experiences that become the highlight of your life????? Because, I will tell you that nothing comes close to these experiences. I wouldn't trade them for all the power, money, jewels, gold, women, fame, fortune in the world...and all others who have experienced these things say the same.

No other earthly experience can compare to these things and deep inside there is an uncorrupted part of you that wants to believe that this is all true. It's the inner child, like the one Einstein used in all his research, that grasps for these things and finds them. Ask, seek, and knock and you will know what a select few know to be absolute truth. That God is real and encompasses all reality.

shaunybaby,

Not really what I was hitting on. It's more that to become enlightened, the person above was saying that you need to force these negatives out of your personality. The minute you do this, the minute you lose any sort of personality. Personality is what makes us individual and makes everyone so different. I'm not sure why anyone would want to rid any part of that, even the negatives.

Lets just examine what your suggesting for a moment. Imagine an individual who has a very negative part of his/her personality that is driving that individual to consider some unthinkable act against another individual, and lets make it extreme just to drive the point home, say maybe rape or murder or something horrid. I'm sure under these circumstances you would have to agree that it would be best for all of us that this individual rid him/herself of these negative aspects of their personality, right? Or would it be better to just let all the individual negative traits humans possess run rampant, and let all hell break loose. I know you don't believe that, and that is why I went to the extreme because that is what we are ultimately talking about, the supremely extreme.

Then I was destined to not be a believer. Sure, never say never. I'll try anything once, and I've tried religion. It wasn't for me. At no point in my future do I see myself 'needing' God in any way, shape or form.

I was also raised around religion, initially I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic faith, I remember as a young child in the church (maybe only 4 or 5) feeling nothing of God's presence their, I don't know why but I never did get it there. By the time I was 7 my mother joined a budhist organization, (nicheren shoshu of america) I also remember not getting it there either, my questions were always shunned as arrogant, (how could a child begin to comprehend the great law) anyway, as I progressed into my teenage years I became quite certain that there was no need for religion. God was not real, and that religion was only a creation of man to control the masses. For the rest of my days (I'm now 46) until nearly three years ago, I too felt quite confident that there was no God or any need for such a thing in my life. I have always felt comfortable discussing religion with anyone, i.e. Mormons, Witenesses, Baptist, Budhist, I didn't care who you were if you got God bring it on, I could rip it up with the best of them, because I knew that God was just not real, period, end of story.
I can't wrap up for you in a pargraph, the gift I have recieved, but I can tell you now that with my whole being I know God is real, I don't just believe it. I also know His enemy is real also. This is where it gets hairy, there is a spiritual war taking place, and we are all right smack dab in the middle of it. For those who read this and do not believe, you will consider me deluded and so be it, if you are right no harm no fowl, but if I am right you are in grave danger and are the one who has been duped. Someone once said, Satan's greatest trick was convincing man that he was not real, I think more are inclined to believe that, and because of it he has gained ground and is now applying that stradegy in our mind toward God.
Anyway, it is Christmas Eve so MERRY *CHRIST* MAS everyone!!!

Originally posted by holidaystar1
Lets just examine what your suggesting for a moment. Imagine an individual who has a very negative part of his/her personality that is driving that individual to consider some unthinkable act against another individual, and lets make it extreme just to drive the point home, say maybe rape or murder or something horrid. I'm sure under these circumstances you would have to agree that it would be best for all of us that this individual rid him/herself of these negative aspects of their personality, right? Or would it be better to just let all the individual negative traits humans possess run rampant, and let all hell break loose. I know you don't believe that, and that is why I went to the extreme because that is what we are ultimately talking about, the supremely extreme.

Since when was rape or murder a part of someone's personality? Anger would be. Did this person commit a rape or murder because of anger? I get angry sometimes.. I don't go out and rape someone though. And are you suggesting that if these people were religious or believed in God that they wouldn't commit rape or murder? I'm sure you're aware, The Bible is full of both.

I also didn't say that we should let negative parts of us run rampant. I didn't say that negative traits were good, I said they are neccesary. It's what makes us unique. If we were all the same, it'd be boring. We're not all the same and never going to be all the same, so there's no a lot of point trying to be.

I could use your own example, and swap it for a Christian murdering an abortion doctor, and them stating that the bible allows them to do this. Does this mean we should get rid of every bible? Or every Christian? No it doesn't. Because that doesn't represent the majority of Christians. Just like rape and murder are extreme negatives, it doesn't mean we should rid everyone of 'all' negatives. A little diversity is always good. And what exactly constitutes to a negative trait? Who decides that? God? You?

Originally posted by holidaystar1
...I didn't care who you were if you got God bring it on, I could rip it up with the best of them, because I knew that God was just not real, period, end of story.
I can't wrap up for you in a pargraph, the gift I have recieved, but I can tell you now that with my whole being I know God is real, I don't just believe it.

Congratulations on finally being brainwashed after over 40 years.

Would you like me to rip into you now?

Originally posted by Columbus

Originally posted by holidaystar1
...I didn't care who you were if you got God bring it on, I could rip it up with the best of them, because I knew that God was just not real, period, end of story.
I can't wrap up for you in a pargraph, the gift I have recieved, but I can tell you now that with my whole being I know God is real, I don't just believe it.

Congratulations on finally being brainwashed after over 40 years.

Would you like me to rip into you now?

Ah yes, "brainwashed"... actually it does feel more like it has been cleansed somewhat. If you are suggesting I have been mentally controlled by some institution, or mind altered by some church or religious organization, you are wrong in your assumption.
For the sake of argument, I would suggest you save your breath, and watch your tongue, you cannot "rip into that which has been established in me"... Nothing you will ever say about me will change my "brainwashed mind".
You have every right to believe what ever you choose, but in the end you will have "choisted" for yourself. Please allow others the same right.

Originally posted by dominicus

Ego death is not loss of all personality, but only the bad parts that don't allow you to see truth.

Truth is relative and subjective. My truth is that there is no "god." If there were, the world wouldn't be the craphole it is.

Originally posted by holidaystar1
Ah yes, "brainwashed"... actually it does feel more like it has been cleansed somewhat. If you are suggesting I have been mentally controlled by some institution, or mind altered by some church or religious organization, you are wrong in your assumption.

Rather than assuming what I might be assuming, why don't you investigate cult brainwashing. It is my hope that people understand how they came to be where they are spiritually, just in case that isn't where you would have chosen to go without the external programming.

...you cannot "rip into that which has been established in me"... Nothing you will ever say about me will change my "brainwashed mind".

You should have said "please, don't, my faith is weak", because this statement is, "I've built this house of cards, and NO ONE can knock it down!"

But seriously, people like to say "I was like you", but is it actually so? Well, I went through the church twice myself. The first time I was a teenager and had not been brainwashed. Eventually I thought the whole thing silly and decided it wasn't for me and quit. After that I had arguments with my friends all the time and "ripped into them" as you said originally, but eventually they got me, the brainwashing clicked in this time. I went through an experience that I read later in Blaise Pascal's (of the Pascal's Wager) Mind On Fire.

For years I was deeply involved in the church, I've talked about this in detail in other threads. The point I want to get across is that brainwashing is an involuntary, violent violation. Even so, I am not resentful of my friends, because they were brainwashed too.

Please allow others the same right.

If only one thing you hear from me, brainwashing isn't choice.

After that I had arguments with my friends all the time and "ripped into them" as you said originally, but eventually they got me, the brainwashing clicked in this time.

First, let me say that I never said "I ripped into anyone".
What I said was, " I didn't care who you were if you got God bring it on, I could rip it up with the best of them," the subject was the idea of discussing God being a reality. A better translation would be I could argue the point with anyone, not "ripping" into anyone, or personally attacking them, but respectfully discussing the existence of the idea of God.

It is my hope that people understand how they came to be where they are spiritually, just in case that isn't where you would have chosen to go without the external programming.

If I tell you that it was not external programming that brought me to where I am spiritually, you will have to take my word for it, or just continue to believe that I am suffering from some form of brainwashing.
If I tell you that God's Spirit is moving in the world, and that He is awakening many to His true reality, you may once again claim that I am just "brainwashed". Your choice...

You should have said "please, don't, my faith is weak", because this statement is, "I've built this house of cards, and NO ONE can knock it down!"

No, the statement is as I made it and implies, nothing you can say will remove from me that which God has revealed to me.
What do you percieve is "faith"? Are you asserting that you think it is my belief that is weak?, or something else?
As for your "house of cards" analogy, I didn't build one, so then as you assert no one can knock it down because it doesn't exist.

For years I was deeply involved in the church, I've talked about this in detail in other threads. The point I want to get across is that brainwashing is an involuntary, violent violation. Even so, I am not resentful of my friends, because they were brainwashed too.

I think your onto something that I believe does exist in some so-called churches. As a matter of fact I still don't feel right in most of the churches I have tried to attend, to me there is something missing in most of what they teach, and as you say this does lead to false teaching or brainwashing as you describe. What I have gained did not come from any organized religion or church

Originally posted by holidaystar1
A better translation would be I could argue the point with anyone, not "ripping" into anyone, or personally attacking them, but respectfully discussing the existence of the idea of God.

Sorry, sometimes I am resentful of the ghosts of the past. What allows Christians to calmly lean back and take anti-god arguments is ignorance. What motivates them to convert others is sinister. It is a dirty pair. Discussing the idea of god with them only works to their favor.

If I tell you that it was not external programming that brought me to where I am spiritually, you will have to take my word for it, or just continue to believe that I am suffering from some form of brainwashing.

I won't continue to believe something that isn't true. I don't know how you came to be where you are. Enlighten me. If you have been brainwashed, you will not know it. Let me point out the warning signs for you.

If I tell you that God's Spirit is moving in the world, and that He is awakening many to His true reality, you may once again claim that I am just "brainwashed".

There is no real thing that could be called God or God's Spirit, so what you are saying is clearly not true. But whether it is by brainwashing or fantasy or hallucination, I can't say.

"I've built this house of cards, and NO ONE can knock it down!"

...nothing you can say will remove from me that which God has revealed to me.

These are undoubtedly the self-same statement, assertion of impossibility.

What do you percieve is "faith"? Are you asserting that you think it is my belief that is weak?, or something else?

Faith is gullibility, belief founded on nothing, weak. When pressed ever so gently (which I have not even begun to do yet), it shakes, like a house of cards.

As for your "house of cards" analogy, I didn't build one, so then as you assert no one can knock it down because it doesn't exist.

The house of cards is what you claim god revealed to you, but since there is no god, the house of cards is your own handiwork, you built it.

...as you say this does lead to false teaching or brainwashing as you describe.

All teaching from the Bible itself is designed expressly for brainwashing, but it is not the teaching itself that is brainwashing. Brainwashing itself is what they do to you and also what you allow and do to yourself as the conditioning begins. It's really quite complex, yet subtle and slow so no one notices it while it is happening. I was not brainwashed at church either, though that more subtle conditioning helped a bit.

No one feels comfortable in church at first, and that is an intentional part of the brainwashing protocol as well.

What I have gained did not come from any organized religion or church

I thought that of myself as well. Agents of brainwashing usually call themselves "ministers" and such things, though they may hold no title in any church and may not even be members of any church. They often consider the church soft, as the church's brainwashing techniques are much more subtle and broad.

I won't continue to believe something that isn't true. I don't know how you came to be where you are. Enlighten me.

From your current perspective, any attempt I may make to share with you will most likely be rejected as reprogramming the brainwashing you have freed yourself from. You have used this term as a deffensive mechanism to prevent yourself from being "violated" as you have described by ministers, churches, etc.
In order to percieve the true nature of God, you must be willing to open yourself to the concept of Spirit, that which is separate from the physical world, and exist beyond it, but from what I have read in your post you are not, cannot, or will not allow yourself to do that. If you choose to exclude the possibility of a spiritual realm existing as reality, and only allow yourself to think of it as someone's fantasy, or hallucination, or brainwashing, then to lead you toward something you do not accept as real would be quite difficult, however, not impossible. Thankfully, God requires a choice.

There is no real thing that could be called God or God's Spirit, so what you are saying is clearly not true. But whether it is by brainwashing or fantasy or hallucination, I can't say.

???

Originally posted by holidaystar1
...any attempt I may make to share with you will most likely be rejected as reprogramming the brainwashing you have freed yourself from.

I would not simply outright reject something, I understand the process of brainwashing. The fact of the matter is, The Bible is contaminated with brainwashing protocols.

Peer pressure was one early factor that affected me, because my long-term friends had come to accept Christ and identified me as a potential recruit. They welcomed any opportunity to testify to me. These were people I had known for many year, I grew up with them, and they were changing but I wasn't. This is part of the reason they accused me of lying and pretending to be Christian when I left the church many years later.

Believe it or not, intolerance is a major factor in recruiting people into a cult. The way it works is, you constantly talk about how terrible gays and liberals are and how they're destroying the world, and this has an effect on you even if at first you don't believe it. The church even has "former" gay people make speeches and describe how despicable the gay lifestyle choice is to lend credibility to what is basically hate. Some people call this aspect of brainwashing "finger pointing".

If you have been involved in any of the activities that are not tolerated, guilt plays a major factor as well. Even if you haven't, if you've considered yourself to be a god person, the concept of guilt is heavily worked by Christians. Everyone needs to be guilty even if they're not.

Violence, violent images, violent verbal and written imagery, are foundational to Christian teaching. These include the whole concept of Hell and the imagery of Christ being nailed to the Cross. (Edit) They use abusive language, telling you you're going to hell and you're a filty sinnner! Usually in ALL CAPS in forums.(/edit)

Up until now, all of these techniques play off of fear, fear of losing friends, fear of the world becoming totally corrupt, fear of homosexuals, fear of being found out if you have any feelings of guilt to exploit, and fear of a violent punishment in Hell. Fear is the string that controls you.

And for the straw that breaks the camels back, confusion. Confusion plays off of fear perfectly. The main way to induce confusion is to work in complicated new definitions of words into sermons and discussions. The critical keywords are trinity, death, truth, but there are many more. Christians have an entire language to themselves. Some people have taken to call this language Dog Whistle because the unbrainwashed can't hear it at all. The words take on new often contradictory and confusing meanings that completely usurp the conventional definitions.

I have constant arguments with Christians about death and truth in particular because we are simply not talking about the same things.

You have used this term as a deffensive mechanism to prevent yourself from being "violated" as you have described by ministers, churches, etc.

Again, I actually understand brainwashing, although I didn't fully grasp what happened and recover for years afterward. Christians actually helped me understand it by being guinea pigs for me in forums like this. I learned their patterns and techniques and what I should not do when dealing with them. For example, debate is out of the question.

In order to percieve the true nature of God, you must be willing to open yourself to the concept of Spirit, that which is separate from the physical world, and exist beyond it, but from what I have read in your post you are not, cannot, or will not allow yourself to do that.

Actually, I have no problems with the concept of higher realms of existence of superior consciousness. But I can tell you, the true nature of god is simply not infinite, meaning there can be more than one. And a god did not create the universe, because that is circular reasoning. Knowing these facts, what sort of god do you really believe in?


[edit on 29-4-2007 by Columbus]

Actually, I have no problems with the concept of higher realms of existence of superior consciousness.

Interesting, what then do you consider these "higher realms of existence of superior consciousness" to be associated with? Because your response was made to my quoted statement discussing Spiritual nature beyond the physical realm of man. Is this what you are alluding to, or something else?
I quess what I'm getting at, is, do you believe these "higher realms of existence of superior consciousness" reside totally in the mind of man, or are you saying that something exist outside of human consciousness and or imagination, in and of itself, that is separate from the physical realm?

But I can tell you, the true nature of god is simply not infinite, meaning there can be more than one.

So then, by this statement you are affirming that you believe there is a true nature of God, which is not infinite, meaning there can be more than one. So are you saying there can be more than one God, or that God has multiple nature's?

And a god did not create the universe, because that is circular reasoning.

You make this statement like you are privy to some information about the origin of the universe. As far as I am aware, the issue has not yet been resolved by the scientific community (as of this writing) as to how the universe as we experience it has come into being, if you can please share why this is not common knowledge.

Originally posted by holidaystar1
Interesting, what then do you consider these "higher realms of existence of superior consciousness" to be associated with? Because your response was made to my quoted statement discussing Spiritual nature beyond the physical realm of man. Is this what you are alluding to, or something else?
I quess what I'm getting at, is, do you believe these "higher realms of existence of superior consciousness" reside totally in the mind of man, or are you saying that something exist outside of human consciousness and or imagination, in and of itself, that is separate from the physical realm?

I don't have any personal beliefs about any unobserved dimensions, I simply don't discount their existence. Their nature, if they exist, remains to be discovered. What I would point out is that there is a lot of wild speculation about this subject and it is taken in faith, but there remains no substantiated discovery.

Faith is a product of comfort with beliefs. Discovery is a product of discomfort with a lack of knowledge.

So then, by this statement you are affirming that you believe there is a true nature of God, which is not infinite, meaning there can be more than one. So are you saying there can be more than one God, or that God has multiple nature's?

Not being infinite is only one problem with god, but it is a big one. Essentially anything could be described as a god, especially when you offer no definition, even angels and demons can't be separated from the class of gods. Then there is The Goauld and The Greys. Are they gods? Why or why not?

You make this statement like you are privy to some information about the origin of the universe. As far as I am aware, the issue has not yet been resolved by the scientific community (as of this writing) as to how the universe as we experience it has come into being, if you can please share why this is not common knowledge.

It is the God of the Gaps that you insert in place of where you think science has not yet found an answer. The answer that science provides is pretty convincing if you don't have any comfortable faith to get in the way. But if you would prefer a paradox or circular reasoning, you know that cowardice and willful ignorance are your masters.

I don't have any personal beliefs about any unobserved dimensions, I simply don't discount their existence.

Very wise choice indeed, I am glad to know that you don't "disount their existence". To close that door would be willful ignorance as you have put it and that would extremely cowardess on your part.

Their nature, if they exist, remains to be discovered.

Ah, maybe for you, but you cannot know for certain if others have made those discovery's and have chosen not to disclose them to you as yet.

What I would point out is that there is a lot of wild speculation about this subject and it is taken in faith, but there remains no substantiated discovery.

Once again, as far as your aware "there remains no substantiated discovery", so then therefore you percieve it as "taken in faith".

Faith is a product of comfort with beliefs. Discovery is a product of discomfort with a lack of knowledge.

Faith is the power of belief, that comes from specific knowledge which may cause discomfort when presenting itself before comfortable beliefs.

The answer that science provides is pretty convincing if you don't have any comfortable faith to get in the way.

Pretty convincing of what? Science has not yet provided any absolute proof or truth as to it's hypothesis on the origin of the physical universe. Cosmologist can't conclude with any certainty how it all began. It is your "comfortable faith" in the sciences that clouds your vision from being able to see the "other realm" you so adamantly decline to accept, yet, "simply don't discount their existence."
In order to percieve the spiritual, you must be willing to accept the concept and potential reality of the Spirit to experience it's existence. If you are unwilling to explore and experience the spiritual, I don't think it would be willing to rape your mind (pardon the term) and terminate the death hold grip it clings too with it's science, unless of course it was a very dark spirit, and that too is not out of the realm of possibility's. You may be well wise to keep yourself free from these experiences, until you are willing to accept that God is real. Even every aspect of your purely physical construct obeys the laws set in motion, Positve and negative energy unarguably co-exist, along with light and darkness.