Bill would ease Interrogation Limits

It seems the Bush Administration has put together a bill that would ease the limits of interrogation used by the CIA on "high value suspects"



This is a pure disgrace to the United States and the world.. I think it's sad that the USA who is trying to spread "peace and democracy and freedom" would find it in their hearts to torture and rape "SUSPECTS".. And what exactly is "simulated drowning" if you're strapping someone to a wooden board and then drowning them, that's not "simulated drowning" thats drowning.

This bill could go to debate as early as Tuesday. The President has also taken steps within this bill that prohibit any CIA official from being prosecuted with "War crimes". Well if the CIA is doing nothing wrong then why would they need this type of protection. Because they are raping and torturing people to get "confessions" and "Information" them, and I'm sure that these confessions and information arent just what the CIA WANT to hear but are true confessions, to put these people on Trial at Military Tribunals where they would face the death penalty, would not have the right to remain silent and cannot challenge hearsay evidence. Which would certainly result in a finding of "Guilty" in just about all cases. This bill CANNOT be passed and America retain it's global image of a peaceful country. This would only confirm the facts that America has become a rogue country doing what it wants when it wants and answers to No One.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Ox]

Just an update on this..

It seems that Negotiations on this bill have hit a major snag, There's a shock.. And It's about time that someone stood up and stopped this mess..

In a direct challenge to President Bush, Sen. John Warner, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said his panel would meet Thursday to finalize an alternative to the White House plan to prosecute terror suspects and redefine acts that constitute war crimes. Warner, R-Va., said the administration proposal would lower the standard for the treatment of prisoners, potentially putting U.S. troops at risk should other countries retaliate.

About time some of Bush's own party stood up against him. We'll see how this goes and if Warner has the spauldings to keep it this way...

The White House said Warner's proposal would undermine the nation's ability to interrogate prisoners and arranged an extraordinary conference call with reporters in which the nation's top intelligence official criticized Warner's plan.

Of course they did.. Why wouldnt they, They're not getting their way so why would they agree? Now they start with the personal slander of Warner.. That's how these people work.

I dont think "Interrogations" should take place. They are getting little information from these people and they are torturing them to get what they want to hear out of them, Nothing more. So they can be tried and sentenced to death.

Keep it up Warner..

Edit: Forgot the Link

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Ox]

Originally posted by Ox
I think it's sad that the USA who is trying to spread "peace and democracy and freedom" would find it in their hearts to torture and rape "SUSPECTS".

(emphasis mine)

While it's too early in the morning for me to have much of an opinion on anything (other than a bit more sleep), I did want to point out a minor error in your point. As I've bolded above, you say they'd be torturing and raping suspects; according to the source though:

The bill would keep in law prohibitions on war crimes such as rape and torture that are widely accepted as illegal.

Those actions are currently prohibited, and the bill would keep those prohibitions in place. I'll probably come back later and post more--I don't agree with the bill, I know that--but my brain isn't working very well yet.

Sorry about your lack of sleep.. and thanks for pointing that out to me.. BUT.. it's common sense to know that the US tortures suspects.. I mean.. what was that thing.. the.. ahh...Abu Ghriab prison scandal.. yeah... And the guy (His name escapes me) that came forward after being rendered and taken to a secret CIA prison that was said not to exsist where he was tortured. The bill would keep rape and torture illegal for all branches of the military and government EXCEPT the CIA.. They're WAY above all this..

I got this in an email today. Seems pretty relevant to this thread.

TOP FIVE THINGS SENATOR SPECTER WON’T TELL YOU ABOUT THE CHENEY-SPECTER
BILL TO ALLOW WARRANTLESS SPYING ON AMERICANS

1. The Cheney-Specter bill makes following the protections in the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act totally optional. The bill would change the
law so that foreign intelligence surveillance of Americans could be
conducted without following FISA’s requirement of individualized judicial
review of wiretaps. The bill would change the law to allow the president to
ignore FISA’s protections and unilaterally decide which Americans to
wiretap, indefinitely and without any mandatory check to protect individual
rights. The bill also gives President Bush support for his currently
untenable argument that FISA does not apply in wartime by deleting the
provisions saying FISA does apply in wartime. If the bill passes,
presidents will have multiple avenues to circumvent the statute, rendering
moot its protections for Americans’ civil liberties.

2. The Cheney-Specter bill does not require President Bush to get a warrant
for every wiretap of every American currently subject to the NSA’s illegal
warrantless wiretapping. President Bush’s so-called “concession” to submit
a “program” to the FISA court to approve is not required by the bill—it’s
conditional. Only if the bill passes exactly as it was written by the White
House or with additional White House changes has President Bush “promised”
that he will submit one of his secret surveillance programs to the FISA
Court. Nothing in the bill requires him to do so, and the Cheney-Specter
bill has stacked the deck so that the court will hear only the
administration’s arguments and is directed to approve surveillance without
ever knowing the name of every American wiretapped and any facts supporting
such surveillance. Nothing in the bill requires any future president to get
approval of programs of surveillance let alone actual warrants based on
evidence a particular American is conspiring with al Qaeda.

3. The Cheney-Specter bill legalizes President Bush’s illegal spying
although Congress doesn’t really know all that he has directed the NSA to do
regarding people in the US. The bill rewrites FISA to legalize the
surveillance President Bush is currently conducting in defiance of the law.
Yet, the administration has stonewalled congressional attempts to learn the
true scope and nature of all of the illegal surveillance the administration
has secretly authorized. Specter, himself, has called President Bush’s NSA
program illegal “on its face,” yet his bill provides statutory power to do
more than the president has admitted and it expands the NSA’s power to
search Americans’ calls, e-mails, and homes without any warrant under FISA.

4. The Cheney-Specter bill allows law enforcement to enter Americans’ homes
and offices without a warrant. Landlords, custodians and “other people”
would be required to let law enforcement officers to access Americans’
computers and telephones, and no warrant is required, simply government
say-so—under the expanded powers in the bill. This measure flies in the
face of the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and
seizure.

5. The Specter bill does not enforce the Fourth Amendment’s requirement that
no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause stating with particularity
the things to be searched and seized. Specter’s bill so broadly redefines
whom can be spied on without a warrant that countless Americans would be
subject to secret NSA surveillance. All international phone calls and
emails would be subject to warrantless surveillance under the bill’s changes
to the law. Plus, emails and other Internet traffic would be subject to
monitoring if the government did not know the physical location of every
recipient of an American’s email. Furthermore, the bill creates a new type
of generalized surveillance power, which, while it requires court approval,
does not require the government to identify each target in the US, the basis
for such surveillance or the method of monitoring each American—wiretaps,
bugging or other devices. Under this exceedingly low threshold, the NSA
could win approval for conducting surveillance of countless Americans while
keeping secret from the courts and Congress who is being monitored and even
whether the spying approved actually helps protect against terrorism.

Take action! Tell your members of Congress to oppose the Specter-Cheney
Bill and other dangerous proposals that threaten your rights.

From what I heard on NPR tonight it sounds like 4 Repub's joined some Dem's to reject this bill as written.

It seems that Bush and his little war crime bills are facing some opposition, John Warner and 3 other GOP members joined Democrats to win a 15 - 9 vote AGAINST the Presidents bill mentioned in the initial posting of this thread.

Yahoo News

A Republican-led Senate committee defied Bush on Thursday and approved terror-detainee legislation the president has vowed to block. Republican Sen. John Warner of Virginia, normally a Bush supporter, pushed the measure through his

It's about time someone did.

The president's measure would go further than that bill, allowing classified evidence to be withheld from defendants in terror trials and using coerced testimony. The legislation also would revise the law that interprets the nation's obligations under the Geneva Conventions, the treaty that sets the standard for treatment of war prisoners, so that harsh interrogations of detainees would not be questioned in court.

Gee I wonder what that classified eveidence would be? Hmm Interesting indeed.
Lets revise the law that binds us to the Geneva Convention, yeah good idea, I mean, what are human rights anyway... BAH!.. Human Rights (Insert Sarcasm here).
Yeah and lets not question the torture of detainee's so that their coerced testimony will give the government a guilty verdict and these detainee's will be put to death and I PROMISE they wouldnt sit on death row like all other condemned people, they would be put to death immediately.... Who's running this country anyhow? Saddam Bush.. George W. Hussein? COME ON!..

The election-year debate has pitted Republicans against each other and kept in limbo the legal bounds of a CIA CIA program to detain and interrogate "high-value" terrorism suspects. A successful vote for Bush also would allow the president to begin prosecuting detainees allegedly connected to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

There is NO proof that any of these people were involved in 9/11... Remember all the terrorists died in the crashes....

With the two sides unable to reach an accord, McConnell said it was time to "let the Congress work its will.

In other words, it's time to let the GOP controlled Congress to vote against us, Let the President Veto this and stick it right up our rear ends, cause that's what he does when he doesnt like something.. Because the man isnt a politician, he's a monster, he has NO policies but his personal agenda.. Nothing else.

You have some powerful Republican senators opposing Bush bill on the amendment of article 3 that will make possible for suspected terrors to be held and with not access to any of the information recollected for their detention.

Also information on hearsay will be used as facts; kind of no rights what so ever and something that will make for lawyers an impossible task of defending their clients.

Now when you have issues about the safety of our military personnel abroad it becomes a touchy subject for the American people.

If the present administration gets away with fixing the Geneva Convention that will open the door to any other country to interpret it any way they want and to make amendments also.

Colin Power was very clear on his opinion of why the bill should be stop; our soldiers abroad will be at risk.

Now what it bothers me the most is the illegal surveillance and how the present administration wants to hide behind the war on terror to make spying on American citizens legal.

Because if anybody thinks that is just for Terrorist suspect you are in denial, secret spying with not laws will be defined as per agenda purposes plain and simple.

When is not body to watch over the watchers to protect American constitutional rights are will lead to abuses.

Obama of Illinois made a very good point about Who is going to monitor who and who is going to made sure that American rights are protected

When governments get absolute power over their citizens is called Dictatorship and totalitarian rule People still believe that no rights has been taken away from them in our nation.

That is what the present administration is trying to bring to our nation for future presidents after him.

Is this what the American people wants?, wake up American

Here's an update to all of this..

Yahoo News

Bush held a news conference in Washington today, after facing a GOP revolt in the Senate. Bush was again pushing his bill for tougher interrogation laws on "suspect" terror detainee's.

WASHINGTON - Facing a GOP revolt in the Senate, President Bush urged Congress on Friday to join in backing legislation to spell out strategies for interrogating and trying terror suspects, saying "the enemy wants to attack us again."

Trying to tell us something there W?? That if the citizens of this country dont comply with your demands that there


They do? When did this happen? Is this because he's afraid that the GOP will lose out in the November elections? My guess would be... uhh YES!..

"Time is running out," Bush said in a Rose Garden news conference. "Congress needs to act wisely and promptly.

It is? Time is running out for what? OOHHH yeah thats right, it's now September 15th, the elections arent far away, so better get this passed before the GOP no longer has control of the Senate or Congress and then who knows what will happen?

Bush denied that the United States might lose the high ground in the eyes of world opinion, as former Secretary of State
Colin Powell suggested.

Of course he did.. He thinks he's doing good, this is what makes him a sociopath.

"It's unacceptable to think there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective," said Bush, growing animated as he spoke.

Why's that? Because it's not Patriotic to think of your Government as terrorists? well too late. There have been hundreds of reports since the wars started of US and Coalition forces killing innocent men, women and children to achieve it's objective.. and you cant tell there hasnt been.. there is documented proof.. To the point that military investigations have been launched.. Raping and killing women and burning villages is something only radical islamic terrorists do... WRONG, there is documented proof that the USA has done it, and there are soldiers standing trial for it.

"If not for this program, our intelligence community believes al Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," he said.

Are you trying to tell us something there W? Are you trying to tell us that if the citizens of this country dont comply with your demands, that there WILL be another attack? Is that what youre getting at? That's how I would interpret that..

I saw his speech today and it was down right pathetic that a president has to get his way one way or another like a spoiled child.

What is wrong with him!!!!!!! It seems that he can not possible understand that he is not with absolute powers but that is a congress that he has to deal with that happen to be in of his own political party!!!!!!!

I wonder what is he more upset about . . . no getting his wish to spy unrestricted or no getting to watch videos with Cheney and Rumsfeld of prisoners been abuse in secret detentions center.

I wonder.

So this goes deeper still...

Yahoo News

Believing that there will be a compromise found, both sides of the Republican party continue to work on a bill that would allow CIA interrogations to go forth..

President Bush wants CIA personnel to be able to use aggressive methods to get information from detainees. But several powerful Republican senators are seeking changes to Bush's plan. They say the United States must adhere strictly to international standards and that setting harsher ones could put U.S. troops at risk if they are captured.

The ONLY reason Bush wants these "Aggressive methods" use is to get coersed confessions against these people to be able to try them infront of Military Tribunals where they will not be able to defend ANYTHING.. I believe the reason for these coersed confessions is so Bush can justify his actions in keeping these detainee's for so long without ever formally charging them..

Their differences deal with the Geneva Conventions, which set international standards for the treatment of prisoners of war, and with U.S. handling of classified information and coerced testimony.

Bush wants to do AWAY with the Geneva Conventions and torture these detainee's and make them suffer.. to get "Confessions" from them.. Now... if someone is making you suffer.. would you just tell them what they want to hear to stop the suffering? I would..
These detainee's wouldnt be allowed the right to remain silent.. nor would they be allowed access to evidence and they also wouldnt be able to challenge hearsay evidence.. giving them practically NO defense at all.

Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, declined to say publicly what specific techniques, such as waterboarding or prolonged sleep deprivation, would be illegal if Congress did not pass Bush's proposal.

Why shouldnt they be illegal? It's TORTURE.. And I can remember the President going on TV saying the USA doesnt do that? OH REALLY!!! Then what do you call this?
I think it's Torture.. And the CIA and Bush should be charged with war crimes.. Disban the CIA.. they're TERRORISTS..

But he said the CIA program would suffer and be shut down if interrogators do not have guidance. He said the White House is working on a compromise that "achieves Senator McCain's requirement that we don't amend or change" the Geneva Conventions.

No.. the program wouldnt suffer.. The PRESIDENT would suffer.. period.. he would be labelled as a terrorist and a dictator.. That's all.. these people would be set free, and the UN would probably take action against the USA.

Originally posted by Ox

No.. the program wouldn't suffer.. The PRESIDENT would suffer.. period.. he would be labeled as a terrorist and a dictator.. That's all.. these people would be set free, and the UN would probably take action against the USA.

Good point I wonder if the people set free, if they talk about what has been done to them and the abuses they have endured.

That will tarnish our nations standing in the world and it will forever damage the intentions of our political leaders when it comes to other nations that it tags as evil.

No he can never let that people free to much of a liability.

Whoever the next President is, has a hell of a job on their hands to clean up this mess left behind by this moron.. They are going to have to be a two term President just to clean all of this up and try to change the world's image of the USA back to being a great nation, Land of the free, home of the brave..

Originally posted by Ox
Whoever the next President is, has a hell of a job on their hands to clean up this mess left behind by this moron.. They are going to have to be a two term President just to clean all of this up and try to change the world's image of the USA back to being a great nation, Land of the free, home of the brave..

Too true.

And not to mention the legal mess of reinstating constitutional rights, civil liberties and all the rest. This administration has created a complicated tangle of interconnected and interdependent laws that will need to be dismantled to restore democratic order.

You're absolutely right. And I think if the new President came forward in his State of the Union address and abolished the Patriot Act (If they could) that would probably secure them for a second term... I hope the next President has their head on their shoulders and in the right place.. looking out for the people and not their bank account

And yet more on this attrocity..

Yahoo News

In his memo last week to CIA personnel, Hayden also said he wants Congress to define in U.S. law terms of the Geneva Conventions that bar "humiliating and degrading treatment" and "outrages upon personal dignity."

Yeah.. cause you know.. torture and abuse couldnt possibly harm or scar a person for life.. the CIA knows what they are doing, they're committing acts of war, and should be tried as war criminals.. YET.. ALL of Congress and the Bush.. Dont want this to happen, this is the key in this Bill..

A bill favored by McCain and two other influential Republican senators would prevent CIA personnel involved in the detention program from being sued or prosecuted for their actions. The CIA wants the Congress to go one step further and bless its actions.

Early in the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, senior military officers were so concerned about the CIA's practices that they took steps to ensure that military personnel were not in the room during CIA interrogations, said a government official familiar with both military and intelligence operations. The official and others in government and on Capitol Hill spoke recently about the sensitive CIA activities on the condition they not be identified.

Two reasons for this.. Plausible deniability and No witnesses.... The military men and women couldnt be ordered to tell or testify to what they had seen.. And the CIA would get away with it cleanly..

How do these people sleep at night? How does the President sleep at night knowing what he is doing is destroying people, this man is a monster.. and hopefully in the November elections the power balance will change dramatically and this will all come to an end.. Why would you want to protect someone from prosecution if theyre doing nothing wrong?? Hmmmm Bush??? Hmm Answer that one.....

I'm sickened that I call this country home

And it continues..

Yahoo news

Still trying to compromise on a bill that would allow CIA interrogators to use interrogation methods such as "Electric shock" "Forced Nakedness" and "Waterboarding" in which a person is made to think they are drowning.. Hang on.. Strapping someone to a wooden board, and sticking them head first into water and leaving them there to drown, isnt making someone to think they are drowning.. that's drowning someone..

But neither side is saying how an agreement can be achieved on whether to allow highly controversial methods by the CIA , such as electric shock, forced nakedness and waterboarding, in which a subject is made to think he is drowning. The Bush administration says those techniques have foiled terror plots. Opponents say they verge on torture.

It is torture.. pure and simple.. I dont think that Electricuting someone is OK.. nor is drowning them, nor forcing them to be naked.. that is torture, Torture is illegal.. Bush said the USA doesnt torture.. Bush lied.. AGAIN!..

"The reason we have this program is these kind of hard-core terrorists who are most likely to have information to allow us to protect America are trained in counterinterrogation techniques," Stephen Hadley, President Bush's national security adviser, said Sunday.

Counterinterrogation techniques huh? like what.. growing gills to breath under water while theyre being drowned? being able to make clothes magically appear on their bodies after being forced naked? yeah.. right..

"It was only when they went into this CIA program we were able to get information," he said. "This is not torture. This is not a program out of control. This is a program that is conducted pursuant to law."

Yeah.. Only when they were tortured by the CIA were they able to get information.. Well NO &$#@.... If youre holding someone who has nothing to say, because they've done nothing, theyre an innocents.. But if someone is making you suffer, you'll say ANYTHING to make the suffering stop.. It doesnt matter what you're saying as long as the suffering stops... This program IS torture, it IS out of control and it IS illegal...

This is the biggest disgrace.. this isnt democracy.. this is TERRORISM

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ox]

Actually the most sinister thing about the whole idea is that none of these people that will endure torture in the hands of the US will ever need to see the light of the day again.

They can be torture at will and they do not have to survive at all.

Secret detention prisons will become the modern version of Nazi concentration camps were all kind of torture and experimentation was done on prisoners.

But at least we found out of the atrocities committed during the Nazi Germany.

We may never know what our own government will be doing in secret.

And to think that this is the people we have elected ot protect and take care of us.

Its sad.. and disgusting.. There is no need for this.. This is something that the people of the world need to revolt against... Stand up let your voice be heard, protest, vote.. do whatever you have to do to save the lives of these innocents cause up in one monsters war..

Torture does not produce reliable information and it is unethical, immoral and illegal which are the primary reasons this administration is so eager to use these methods.

I mean seriously, Oprah Winfrey could do a better job as president.

Seattlelaw, That's the ONLY reason that the Government wants to use it.. Because it doesnt produce reliable information and that can perpetuate their little war, producing unreliable information would cause the government to use this information in the media, which would blow it right out of proportion...even more so than the Government would and would help get more votes... people are afraid of terror... terror scares.. so why not use terror tactics on your own people