Evidence for God

Originally posted by shihulud
There are not that many historical documents regarding jesus himself, more regarding the christians and the fact that christ was the main man. Most if not all of these other sources for jesus were written as hearsay. Granted the history in the bible is somewhat correct but that is to be expected as the authors were of the age but that still does not mean that a biblical jesus existed. Look at the presuppositions today - the nativity, the 25th December, Easter - all completely fabrications of other religious practices. Plus all the other similarities that jesus has with over 20 pagan gods. There is some discrepances in the biblical story.



G

What pagan God died on a cross to forgive Man's sins?

What about the many prophecies fulfilled? There are just too many to be coincidence. Check this site out to see some Bible prophecies fulfilled in modern times. www.100prophecies.org...

Originally posted by LancerJ1

What pagan God died on a cross to forgive Man's sins?

What about the many prophecies fulfilled? There are just too many to be coincidence. Check this site out to see some Bible prophecies fulfilled in modern times. www.100prophecies.org...

First off dying for mans sins is a christian philosophy not a pagan one. What about the other similarities, explain those?

On your prophecy site, I found NO fulfilled prophecies. The prophecies were so ambigous that any type of inferrence could be applied or others could have been 'fullfilled' by deliberate deception. I.e If a prophecy is told that I would crash my car and I crashed the car deliberately to fulfill the prohecy.
And yes there can be as many and it be coincidence (people win the lotto dont they)


G

Originally posted by shihulud
First off dying for mans sins is a christian philosophy not a pagan one. What about the other similarities, explain those?

There you go, it is completely unique to Christianity. There is sure to be similarities, it is natural that there are. You can tell them if you like, i dont know any off my head.

On your prophecy site, I found NO fulfilled prophecies. The prophecies were so ambigous that any type of inferrence could be applied or others could have been 'fullfilled' by deliberate deception. I.e If a prophecy is told that I would crash my car and I crashed the car deliberately to fulfill the prohecy.
And yes there can be as many and it be coincidence (people win the lotto dont they)


G

These are prophecies made over 2000 years ago. There were prophecies made in the old testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament over 1000 years later. How could there be delibrate deception over that time? and many prophecies cannot simply be fulfilled deliberately at a specfic time. And then we have the prophecies being fulfilled in our time. I dont think there ambiguous, but defined. And the number of prophecies is over 1000 maybe 2000. The probability of these being fulfilled as coincidence is incredibly tiny.

www.bible.ca...
www.reasons.org...
www.carm.org...

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud
First off dying for mans sins is a christian philosophy not a pagan one. What about the other similarities, explain those?

There you go, it is completely unique to Christianity. There is sure to be similarities, it is natural that there are. You can tell them if you like, i dont know any off my head.

What about Jesus birthday (Dec 25th or Jan 6th) these dates are the birth of other pagan godmen? A virgin birth - attributed to a few godmen.
I think there are some 20 elements in the story of jesus that are similar if not exactly the same as the pagan stories of godmen and heroes.

These are prophecies made over 2000 years ago. There were prophecies made in the old testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament over 1000 years later. How could there be delibrate deception over that time? and many prophecies cannot simply be fulfilled deliberately at a specfic time. And then we have the prophecies being fulfilled in our time. I dont think there ambiguous, but defined. And the number of prophecies is over 1000 maybe 2000. The probability of these being fulfilled as coincidence is incredibly tiny.

www.bible.ca...
www.reasons.org...
www.carm.org...

AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE these prohecies are not CLEAR CUT. Some of them are so vague that it could mean many things while others have been deliberately fulfilled. I mean what about this one (not biblical)
'When the moon is new and the age near end, the sky will darken for days, the Earth shall shake and fire will consume the lower lands. The people shall be devastated and know that their time has come'
This WILL happen in the near future.


G

Originally posted by shihulud
What about Jesus birthday (Dec 25th or Jan 6th) these dates are the birth of other pagan godmen? A virgin birth - attributed to a few godmen.
I think there are some 20 elements in the story of jesus that are similar if not exactly the same as the pagan stories of godmen and heroes.

The exact date of Jesus' birth is not known. Jesus was born from a virgin to show God's power and humbleness. It is likely that you are going to find pagan gods born from virgins because that demonstrates the gods powers.

AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE these prohecies are not CLEAR CUT. Some of them are so vague that it could mean many things while others have been deliberately fulfilled. I mean what about this one (not biblical)
'When the moon is new and the age near end, the sky will darken for days, the Earth shall shake and fire will consume the lower lands. The people shall be devastated and know that their time has come'
This WILL happen in the near future.

The Bible is unique in that it has so many prophecies that are quite specific. Some other religious books have a few prophecies but most are vague.

Give me an example of a deliberately fulfilled one? Where did the prophecy you gave come from?

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Matt. 1:18,25, "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established.

Some may be a bit vague, but there are many that are quite specific. I dont understand how you can say there are NO fulfilled prophecies, when there certainly are.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud
What about Jesus birthday (Dec 25th or Jan 6th) these dates are the birth of other pagan godmen? A virgin birth - attributed to a few godmen.
I think there are some 20 elements in the story of jesus that are similar if not exactly the same as the pagan stories of godmen and heroes.

The exact date of Jesus' birth is not known. Jesus was born from a virgin to show God's power and humbleness. It is likely that you are going to find pagan gods born from virgins because that demonstrates the gods powers.

Yes the date is unknown so why give jesus the birthday of other godmen? So the other virgin births were real and the children therefore the sons of god????

AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE these prohecies are not CLEAR CUT. Some of them are so vague that it could mean many things while others have been deliberately fulfilled. I mean what about this one (not biblical)
'When the moon is new and the age near end, the sky will darken for days, the Earth shall shake and fire will consume the lower lands. The people shall be devastated and know that their time has come'
This WILL happen in the near future.

The Bible is unique in that it has so many prophecies that are quite specific. Some other religious books have a few prophecies but most are vague

Give me an example of a deliberately fulfilled one? Where did the prophecy you gave come from?

What about the one where jesus rides into town on a donkey when their waving palm fronds. Quite easily jesus could have known of this prophecy and ridden the donkey to fulfill it!

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Matt. 1:18,25, "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established.

Some may be a bit vague, but there are many that are quite specific. I dont understand how you can say there are NO fulfilled prophecies, when there certainly are.

Is there not a debate on how many people actually wrote Isaiah especially from chapter 40 onwards??? As with the other Isaiah prophecy on virgins and Immanuel - jesus was not called Immanuel nor born from a virgin.

The thing is, you take the things as being the truth, while I (being skeptical) find that there are errors or untruths being paraded.


G

why is this a purely christian oriented thread?

honestly, the christians aren't the only ones that believe in god(s)

why don't we discuss this from a generally theological point of view, instead of a narrowly christian POV

I ask each and everyone of you here.

What makes you believe that if there was an omnipitnet all present ever knowing all everything God that that God would be bound by human reasoning and "law"?

People argue : " How could an all loving God allow 9/11? There must not be one!"

If there is a God of this nature what makes you believe that he is bound by what we call right and wrong? what makes God bound by human law?

IF there is an all powerfull God what makes you belive he couldnt inspire thousands of years of relgious writing? Why can't God work on a level of "literary evolution" where some things come up some are rejected and soem are accepted witht he outcome being what it is now exactly as God wants it? What makes it not so simply because we cant see it or that the odd just dont add up?

basically what I am saying is

Prove to me the all powerful God is bound by man. (and no one pull the childish joke that "if God can do anything can he create a stone.....) Because God is not bound by time space or matter and a stone is there for the means dont correlate. but I guess in a way my own statment says why not?...) (hmm the socratic method at work again....)

But anyway tell me why God would be bound by human logic, human belief, human ideas.

Originally posted by Mizar
I ask each and everyone of you here.

What makes you believe that if there was an omnipitnet all present ever knowing all everything God that that God would be bound by human reasoning and "law"?

People argue : " How could an all loving God allow 9/11? There must not be one!"

If there is a God of this nature what makes you believe that he is bound by what we call right and wrong? what makes God bound by human law?

Well, seeing your asking each and every one of us...

IF we accept the judeo-christian conception of a god, then just reading the related texts shows us that this being would not be bound by human law. In fact, he isn't even bound by the laws he is providing in those texts - i.e. thou shalt not kill. Some may call this being a hypocrite, you know, practice what you preach sort of thing.

He does a lot of that really in those texts. I read a summary of the death and destruction caused by god compared to Satan, there was no comparison, millions compared to single figures. If we applied current human law, he would be convicted of genocide, mass murder, and PETA would hunt him down...



[edit on 26-9-2006 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin


IF we accept the judeo-christian conception of a god, then just reading the related texts shows us that this being would not be bound by human law. In fact, he isn't even bound by the laws he is providing in those texts - i.e. thou shalt not kill. Some may call this being a hypocrite, you know, practice what you preach sort of thing.

He does a lot of that really in those texts. I read a summary of the death and destruction caused by god compared to Satan, there was no comparison, millions compared to single figures. If we applied current human law, he would be convicted of genocide and mass murder...

What makes you or anyone so sure that you can interpert exactly what an infinite being is doing or meaning with your finite mind?

(im not doing this out of ignorance or blind faith as I stated its part of the socratic method of learning. Im trying to make you think.)

Originally posted by Mizar
What makes you or anyone so sure that you can interpert exactly what an infinite being is doing or meaning with your finite mind?

(im not doing this out of ignorance or blind faith as I stated its part of the socratic method of learning. Im trying to make you think.)

I'll just read his supposed manifesto. In it his actions speak for themselves.

Everyone at least once in their lives will put themselves on the same 'pedestal' if you will, as 'god'. Everyone does it, we all have, and everyone after us will. Its just in our nature.

What most don't understand is that to equate oneself with 'god' is the most illogical thing to do.

This is for all who still envision god as the old white guy with the long white beard and robe...that is not the case what-so-ever. God is an intangible energy...its love and power and beauty that is in all of us...and when we die and leave this place, we bring our bounty of this beauty and light back to the source....the source which we are ALL a part of.....everyone.....

If you would rather not see these things and reject all that is god, all you are doing is throwing a proverbial wrench in the gears, which is the 'source'. You reject your own heart, which needs love and light and beauty.....
Essentially....you fail.

....but, everyone has a perfect right to question the validity of the words written in whatever book or manuscript or whatever the case may be about thing that have happened long ago...but we why question THE simple message?

The message is clear...love everyone and they'll love you back....and you'll fill the source with your found love and light. All you have to do is love and see beauty and light in all.
Its not like these teachings and stories tell us to do horrible things...do they?

Originally posted by shihulud
Yes the date is unknown so why give jesus the birthday of other godmen?

There were several dates supposed and they chose dec 25th. This does not matter anyway.

So the other virgin births were real and the children therefore the sons of god????

No. Just because pagans made their pagan gods born from virgins does not mean God cannot let his son be born from a virgin.

What about the one where jesus rides into town on a donkey when their waving palm fronds. Quite easily jesus could have known of this prophecy and ridden the donkey to fulfill it!

Yes, Jesus new about the prophecies he had to fulfill and purposely fulfilled them. But these events still came about without intervention. The people with palm leaves wouldn't of known they were fulfilling a prophecy.

Is there not a debate on how many people actually wrote Isaiah especially from chapter 40 onwards??? As with the other Isaiah prophecy on virgins and Immanuel - jesus was not called Immanuel nor born from a virgin.

Why does it matter if 2 or 3 people wrote it? Jesus was born from a virgin. Immanuel means "God with us". Jesus was God in the flesh with us. It is not his given name but a description of his character.

The thing is, you take the things as being the truth, while I (being skeptical) find that there are errors or untruths being paraded.

There are unanswered questions, and you have drawn on this problem. You have given reasons why God may not exist, but the big picture is there are plenty of reasons why God may exist such as those which i have given in this thread.

God either exists or does not exist.

If God does not exist, the Bible would be false.

If God does exist, the whole Bible would be true. Because the Bible is God's word, God would not let it become corrupted as he wouldn't want people getting the wrong message.

If we have given the same number of reasons for both sides of the argument then there is a 50% chance that God exists.

I believe there are plenty more reasons why God exists than he doesn't exist.

This is how i feel:

Imagine living in a room which is dark, smelly and dirty with other people. No one has ever left this room and has no concept of 'outside'. There's a door on this room and you open it and go outside where there is light, paradise and happiness. You go back inside and tell everyone how much better it is outside, but no one believes you. You keep nagging and saying "just have a look" but no one believes you because they have no concept of outside, and keep living their awful life in that room.

Imagine how frustrating that would be when no one believes you! For the others, they think 'outside' is just a belief you have. But for you it is more than a belief, but something you KNOW exists. This feeling is exactly how i feel towards you. God is just a belief you aknowledge i have, but God is someone i KNOW exists.

God is someone you can only experience if you go through the door to Him. You dont believe because you have not gone throught the door to see what's on the other side. You don't want to go through the door because you dont believe there is anything on the other side, just like my analogy.

I have been through the door to God. You only have my word for it, but i promise, as little as that may mean to you, that he is real and living.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why is this a purely christian oriented thread?

Because my purpose in starting this thread was to give reason why the Christian God exists. No religion has as much credibility as Christianity.

honestly, the christians aren't the only ones that believe in god(s)

But only one can be right.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud
Yes the date is unknown so why give jesus the birthday of other godmen?

There were several dates supposed and they chose dec 25th. This does not matter anyway.

Yes and those other dates were also of pagan godmen! Did the early church use these pagan dates as a way to tempt pagans to christianity or to obliterate the pagans gods - the latter is the answer in case your wondering.

So the other virgin births were real and the children therefore the sons of god????

No. Just because pagans made their pagan gods born from virgins does not mean God cannot let his son be born from a virgin.

So its just coincidence yet again that the christian godman is the same as the pagan godmen? Also does that mean that you acknowledge the existence of pagan gods?

What about the one where jesus rides into town on a donkey when their waving palm fronds. Quite easily jesus could have known of this prophecy and ridden the donkey to fulfill it!

Yes, Jesus new about the prophecies he had to fulfill and purposely fulfilled them. But these events still came about without intervention. The people with palm leaves wouldn't of known they were fulfilling a prophecy.

How about he deliberately fulfilled them thereby conning the people into believing he was the messiah!

Is there not a debate on how many people actually wrote Isaiah especially from chapter 40 onwards??? As with the other Isaiah prophecy on virgins and Immanuel - jesus was not called Immanuel nor born from a virgin.

Why does it matter if 2 or 3 people wrote it? Jesus was born from a virgin. Immanuel means "God with us". Jesus was God in the flesh with us. It is not his given name but a description of his character.

It matters when the extra authors add to the story after the events have happened i.e Cyrus

The thing is, you take the things as being the truth, while I (being skeptical) find that there are errors or untruths being paraded.

There are unanswered questions, and you have drawn on this problem. You have given reasons why God may not exist, but the big picture is there are plenty of reasons why God may exist such as those which i have given in this thread.

God either exists or does not exist.

If God does not exist, the Bible would be false.

If God does exist, the whole Bible would be true. Because the Bible is God's word, God would not let it become corrupted as he wouldn't want people getting the wrong message.

If we have given the same number of reasons for both sides of the argument then there is a 50% chance that God exists.

I believe there are plenty more reasons why God exists than he doesn't exist.

This is how i feel:

Imagine living in a room which is dark, smelly and dirty with other people. No one has ever left this room and has no concept of 'outside'. There's a door on this room and you open it and go outside where there is light, paradise and happiness. You go back inside and tell everyone how much better it is outside, but no one believes you. You keep nagging and saying "just have a look" but no one believes you because they have no concept of outside, and keep living their awful life in that room.

Imagine how frustrating that would be when no one believes you! For the others, they think 'outside' is just a belief you have. But for you it is more than a belief, but something you KNOW exists. This feeling is exactly how i feel towards you. God is just a belief you aknowledge i have, but God is someone i KNOW exists.

You dont KNOW that god exists, you are sufficiently convinced that god exists but as the religious experience is SUBJECTIVE and based on something that cannot be proven then I very much have to disagree that you KNOW god exists.
Your comparison story is quite good until you notice that the 'outside' you suggested is not subjective nor is it based on something that cannot be proven - You could quite easilly rip the door off its hinges and show the people the 'light'

God is someone you can only experience if you go through the door to Him. You dont believe because you have not gone throught the door to see what's on the other side. You don't want to go through the door because you dont believe there is anything on the other side, just like my analogy.

I have been through the door to God. You only have my word for it, but i promise, as little as that may mean to you, that he is real and living.

God is only experienced if you sufficiently believe or have an experience that you dont understand and attribute to a god. The fact that you believe is not sufficient evidence for the existence of a deity.


G

Originally posted by shihulud
Yes and those other dates were also of pagan godmen! Did the early church use these pagan dates as a way to tempt pagans to christianity or to obliterate the pagans gods - the latter is the answer in case your wondering.

The different dates are based on different calculations. Why would a certain date tempt someone to christianity?

So its just coincidence yet again that the christian godman is the same as the pagan godmen? Also does that mean that you acknowledge the existence of pagan gods?

It could be just coincidence, but because people thought those born from virgins were gods, Jesus as the Son of God, has more credence being born from a virgin. I dont believe in pagan gods.

How about he deliberately fulfilled them thereby conning the people into believing he was the messiah!

He didnt tell them to wave palm leaves?

It matters when the extra authors add to the story after the events have happened i.e Cyrus

How do you know the event happened before the alleged 2nd author? Even if Isaiah is written by more than 1 person most other books in the old testament arent. Jeremiah has plenty of prophecies.

You dont KNOW that god exists, you are sufficiently convinced that god exists but as the religious experience is SUBJECTIVE and based on something that cannot be proven then I very much have to disagree that you KNOW god exists.
Your comparison story is quite go until you notice that the 'outside' you suggested is not subjective nor is it based on something that cannot be proven - You could quite easilly rip the door off its hinges and show the people the 'light'

Of course you are going to say that if you dont believe. Isn't that good if it's not subjective? Imagine then that you cant pull off the door. Then again, maybe that fits in ok. Even though they are shown the light, they still deny.

God is only experienced if you sufficiently believe or have an experience that you dont understand and attribute to a god. The fact that you believe is not sufficient evidence for the existence of a deity.

Agreed. But im either right or wrong.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

He didnt tell them to wave palm leaves?

Have a look at this:en.wikipedia.org... in particular the symbolism part

It matters when the extra authors add to the story after the events have happened i.e Cyrus

How do you know the event happened before the alleged 2nd author? Even if Isaiah is written by more than 1 person most other books in the old testament arent. Jeremiah has plenty of prophecies.

If these prophecies were so clear cut, why doesn't everyone believe?????

God is only experienced if you sufficiently believe or have an experience that you dont understand and attribute to a god. The fact that you believe is not sufficient evidence for the existence of a deity.

Agreed. But im either right or wrong.
Im amazed, A christian actually admitting that he/she may be wrong.
The thing is though we can have only one right but infinite wrongs

G

Originally posted by shihulud
Have a look at this:en.wikipedia.org... in particular the symbolism part

I understand if you look at some prophecies individually, you can say that they were going to happen anyway. This was just 1 example out of 1000. When you look at the shear number of prophecies and how they are 100% accurate it is much more convincing.

If these prophecies were so clear cut, why doesn't everyone believe?????

I would like to know that also. Many people dont bother to read the Bible. Blind denial.

Im amazed, A christian actually admitting that he/she may be wrong.
The thing is though we can have only one right but infinite wrongs

G

I dont see how there are infinite wrongs? Either im right, ie God exists. Or im wrong, ie God doesn't exist. What are the other altenatives?

(btw im 18, male)

Originally posted by LancerJ1

I dont see how there are infinite wrongs? Either im right, ie God exists. Or im wrong, ie God doesn't exist. What are the other altenatives?

(btw im 18, male)

Right - your conception of god is correct - i.e. whatever attributes you give him and all other associated beliefs are correct.

wrong -

1. There are no gods

2. There is a god called thor with a hammer, he likes playing with thunder.

3. There is a god called zeus who sits on the top of mount olympus, another with a habit of throwing thunder on us

4. There is one god, he's called Allah, mohammed was his prophet and jesus was not divine.

5. There is a rain god called chac, he also likes thunder.

6. There is a christian-type god, but he isn't omniscient or infinite.

7. Your god alone existed, but now he is dead.

8. All these and many other gods exist.

9. All these gods existed but are now dead.

etc, etc, etc...


[edit on 30-9-2006 by melatonin]

When im refering to God, i mean the Christian God.

Either the Christian God exists, or he doesn't.