Evidence for God

Originally posted by interestedalways
TechSnow, was Satan referred to as a king in the bible? I don't remember that.

Pretorian3, why are you so angry? Just because someone believes in something you don't doesn't make him stupid. And Lancer (sorry can't remember name) you handled the critisim very well. You do show a good example for your faith in action.

Since this thread is evidence for God, you really can't use Jesus as evidence for God, only as evidence of Jesus if there is any real evidence. Also my understanding is that Jesus was absolutely NOT God as he said alot "These things I have not done, but by the Father who is in me" Over and over he stressed his powerlessness and referred the power to the Father within. He also said "You will do what I have done and more." What happened there? That's almost the same story as in the garden. Do this and you can be like God and live forever.
Then Jesus says "Believe in me and you will live for ever"

It's all crazy, and faith is a wonderful thing and my intention is not to ever waver someone's faith in whatever it is that allows them to feel hope and to get through the painful times in this existance, BUT...........

Written words aren't fact and human words aren't God's words. And I will surely fall into praying to the Christian God if I fear for my safety but I don't know who God is and I do believe that God IS.

Thanks mate

In my belief Jesus was God's character in human form. Jesus was the type of person we were planned to be like and will be like after death if you are a believer. Jesus was there at the beginning as was the Holy Spirit and the Father. The Holy Trinity. A triune God. This is hard to comprehend and i guess this is where faith is required.

Sorry, i dont get the point when you say [" He also said "You will do what I have done and more." What happened there? That's almost the same story as in the garden. Do this and you can be like God and live forever.
Then Jesus says "Believe in me and you will live for ever"]

Originally posted by spanishcaravan
All you can do is trust the texts in the new testament are un-tampered with. Espcially seeing as how 1 man was given the job to choose which books went into the new testament. There were over 30 popular texts at the time,but for some reason he chose to pick only 4,"because there are 4 points on a compass".Therefore these 4 texts are the new testament.

I think it was a number of men. There are more then 4 texts in the New Testament? Im guessing you havent read it for yourself?

The church back then would put inaccurate and tampered text in the bible if it fufilled their agenda. Just like they hunted down and all but silenced the gnostics,because they chose to worship privately in their own homes instead of going to the church. The church saw them as a threat....and no gnostic text in the bible.

We all saw the ruckus the newly re-discovered gospel of judas made when it was debuted.

If you put 1 inaccurate book into the bible we would see the contradiction. Therefore all the books would have to be inaccurate so we couldn't see the contradiction. Gnostic gospels were written long after the New Testament gospels. It's not completely known if the gospel of Judas was written by him. Gnosticism was a philosophy that developed over several centuries before Christ. Gnosticism is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible and some Gnostics wrote their own false 'gospels' to 'hijack' the Christian faith. Most Gnostic gospels are lacking in historical details, social and political information, and logical narrative which the New Testaments contains. Theres no Gnostic text in the Bible because the Bible is for the Christian faith not Gnosticism.

The council of Nicea did not decide that Jesus was divine and was the Son of God, this was already accepted by Christians. The books that were put into the Bible contained beliefs that Christians already accepted.

There are so many varying religions because people have created there own God's because their not happy with other ones, and some dont have a God at all because they dont feel comfortable with that either.

how can people create their own gods? The whole point of a god is that he created us according to christians. and if people are just creating gods, then how do you know that christianity wasnt just created by someone years ago because he decided he didnt like his old religion. and because know one else did at the time they decided to change to that religion aswell?

Originally posted by JBourne

There are so many varying religions because people have created there own God's because their not happy with other ones, and some dont have a God at all because they dont feel comfortable with that either.

how can people create their own gods? The whole point of a god is that he created us according to christians. and if people are just creating gods, then how do you know that christianity wasnt just created by someone years ago because he decided he didnt like his old religion. and because know one else did at the time they decided to change to that religion aswell?

I guess also from misinterpretation, like how some thought thunder and lightning was from the gods. The reason i know Christianity wasn't just created by someone is because of everything i have written in this thread.

Most of you guys can agree that a man named Jesus existed. You also agree that he was a moral teacher and someone we should try to live like. But if Jesus was so devoted to God, and living the most godly life he could, why would he do something as sinful as claiming he was the Son of God if he wasnt and bring discredit on himself and his faith? It's just not logical.

Originally posted by babloyi
Hello Lancer.
Please take none of what I say as an insult or attack. I'm just curious about your position.

First you say that Jesus was God, and that he claimed he was God. I have not seen this claim anywhere. Jesus might have said (although I do not know for sure) that he was "Son of God" or that he was "One with God" but he never claimed to BE God. He always (as far as I can see) referred to God as someone else. I wouldn't say things like "Babloyi is an annoying guy" and "Babloyi makes great pizza" unless I wasn't babloyi.


[edit on 9-9-2006 by babloyi]

Christian clerics later defined Jesus as a part of the 'holy trinity'. According to this idea, all three were one in the same; the father, the son and the holy ghost.

Most of you guys can agree that a man named Jesus existed. You also agree that he was a moral teacher and someone we should try to live like. But if Jesus was so devoted to God, and living the most godly life he could, why would he do something as sinful as claiming he was the Son of God if he wasnt and bring discredit on himself and his faith? It's just not logical.

I will agree that a man called jesus existed and i do believe he was a moral teacher and that he was doing the right thing whether he was the son of god or not. Anyone who can make people listen to them should be helping others with what they say.

As for him claiming he was the son of god if he wasnt, surely that wouldnt discredit him or his faith because (and i would be interested in your views here) would christianity even be known if jesus didnt preach? And if jesus was lying in saying he was the son of god then it wouldnt discredit him because that would prove it wasnt real.

Originally posted by JBourne
I will agree that a man called jesus existed and i do believe he was a moral teacher and that he was doing the right thing whether he was the son of god or not. Anyone who can make people listen to them should be helping others with what they say.

As for him claiming he was the son of god if he wasnt, surely that wouldnt discredit him or his faith because (and i would be interested in your views here) would christianity even be known if jesus didnt preach? And if jesus was lying in saying he was the son of god then it wouldnt discredit him because that would prove it wasnt real.

Christianity isnt just about what he preached but it's about Jesus himself, how he died for us.

But Jesus in his heart would know if he was really the Son of God. If there was no Jesus there would be no Christianity. If he wasnt really the Son of God he would know he was lying to all those people, and lying is a sin, which he was completely against.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Christianity isnt just about what he preached but it's about Jesus himself, how he died for us.

But Jesus in his heart would know if he was really the Son of God. If there was no Jesus there would be no Christianity. If he wasnt really the Son of God he would know he was lying to all those people, and lying is a sin, which he was completely against.

And you know this how? Were you there when jesus was preaching his bull$? -
No you weren't, your basing this on someone elses opinion of jesus. You dont have the first clue whether jesus was alive (for one) or whether he was a conman (lying his ass off) or what.

And you wonder why some people can't take religion seriously, when people presume to know what a 2000 year old dead person thought and felt at the time.



G

Originally posted by shihulud

And you know this how? Were you there when jesus was preaching his bull$? -
No you weren't, your basing this on someone elses opinion of jesus. You dont have the first clue whether jesus was alive (for one) or whether he was a conman (lying his ass off) or what.

And you wonder why some people can't take religion seriously, when people presume to know what a 2000 year old dead person thought and felt at the time.



G

What a 2000 year old dead person thought?...Kind of like we'll know how you thought in 2000 years, you mean? This conversation is all being written down just like his were. That's how they know.....

This bull$? that you're refering to is..????....Let me try to help clarify this. If YOU were to proclaim yourself 'son of god', no one would argue...because you ARE. That was the teaching of Jesus in it's most simple form. We are all part of 'IT' because we all possess a piece of the energy which is 'IT'....not 'him'...'IT'. So, at the time, the easiest way to explain to the people what he meant was to use the analogy of 'father and son'....unfortunatly, most take the term literally...I can see the family renunion now...god and jesus bar-b-cueing in the back yard...perhaps a game of badminton....maybe some lawn bowling.

Jesus spoke of love for one another, acceptance, viewing all people as equals....simply, to do like he was doing. This way of loving and acceptance and equality tears down the walls of ignorance between people....ignorance that breeds FEAR, which leads to hatred, then , a whole host of other problems.

We see this today in abundance. G.W.Bush, one of the biggest self proclaimed 'jesus lovers', is so far removed from the teachings of Jesus, he may as well be the 'antichrist'...ooops...i said it, didn't I..?? He evidently has NO clue as to what Jesus spoke of. Unfortunately, someone like Bush, being in the position he is, becomes the 'poster child' if you will, for all christians.

Anywho,Jesus had an uncanny understanding of the 'energy pool' which was all of us, and 'IT', and felt he needed to heighten the awareness of this energy which comes from love and kindness toward others, regardless of their situation.
Its as simple as that. Try it out at your next day of work or school or whatever you do....try being nice to someone. I guarentee the effect will be contagious. And even if you refuse to admit it, you'll feel better too....those are the teachings.

I'll give you another example of why these literal terms were used in his teachings. Go outside, find the closest 75 yr old ( I say 75 yr old because that's probably the last demographic which still doesn't understand new technology...)and try to explain to them how to put an attachment with an e-mail. You'll find yourself using teminology which has absolutely nothing to do with attachments and e-mail. That's what had happened 2000 yrs ago. These people he was teaching had never heard of such terms so he had to SIMPLIFY.

Jesus, Son of god???...absolutely!...SO AM I.

Originally posted by shihulud
And you know this how? Were you there when jesus was preaching his bull$? -
No you weren't, your basing this on someone elses opinion of jesus. You dont have the first clue whether jesus was alive (for one) or whether he was a conman (lying his ass off) or what.

And you wonder why some people can't take religion seriously, when people presume to know what a 2000 year old dead person thought and felt at the time.



G

There's historical evidence that Jesus existed. Denying this is just being stuborn. I have already shown logically in my first post why Jesus wasnt lying or was a madman.

Have you read the New Testament for yourself?

Originally posted by LancerJ1

There's historical evidence that Jesus existed. Denying this is just being stuborn. I have already shown logically in my first post why Jesus wasnt lying or was a madman.

Have you read the New Testament for yourself?

There's NO evidence whatsoever to back up the claim that Jesus existed, NONE, NADA, Absolutely ZIP. Please show this evidence!!!!!
You've shown logically have you???? Yet you deny logic in other aspects of religion. The thing is, you weren't there nor do you know of anyone (still alive) who was there. You cannot, with or without logic, prove that jesus wasn't a lying conman or someone with delusions of grandeur, simply can't be done.

And why on Earth would I want to read the NT? skimmed over the bugger getting ammo to rebuttal claims made by you lot, but read it NO.


G

It would be very easy for someone to lie back then and get away with it. for one they dont have forums like these for people to conspire.
you say he wouldnt lie because he was totally against lying because its a sin, but if he knew he was lying then there wouldnt be any sins upon himself anyway because he would know that what he was saying was wrong.
He could easily of just been saying what he knew the majority of people wanted to here.

I still don't see how any of this is proof of god. Are there other ways to proove god exists other than because the bible says so. Or the Quran,or the Talmud, or the Torah ETC...

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I still don't see how any of this is proof of god. Are there other ways to proove god exists other than because the bible says so. Or the Quran,or the Talmud, or the Torah ETC...

Yes. Look at your hand. Now move your fingers. Read a book on physiology to discover everything that was involved in that simple movement. Now, get a microscope and take a look at a bacteria -- you know the ones, the so-called simplest forms of life that we all evoloved from. Now get a book on microbiology and discover everything that takes place in that one "simple" little cell. Now take a look at a diagram of an amino acid and get a book to learn about just how "simple" this basic building block of life is. Then sit back with all these things running through your head and marvel that the probibility of one amino acid forming by chance is less than 1 to the total number of atoms in the universe.

Then, after you have realized the sheer improbability of all this happening by chance, yell out to God, "If you're really there, show me", and keep your eyes open. He'll answer

Originally posted by junglejake

Yes. Look at your hand. Now move your fingers. Read a book on physiology to discover everything that was involved in that simple movement. Now, get a microscope and take a look at a bacteria -- you know the ones, the so-called simplest forms of life that we all evoloved from. Now get a book on microbiology and discover everything that takes place in that one "simple" little cell. Now take a look at a diagram of an amino acid and get a book to learn about just how "simple" this basic building block of life is. Then sit back with all these things running through your head and marvel that the probibility of one amino acid forming by chance is less than 1 to the total number of atoms in the universe.

Then, after you have realized the sheer improbability of all this happening by chance, yell out to God, "If you're really there, show me", and keep your eyes open. He'll answer

So, incredulity is the path to god....

Amino acids have been formed spontaneously in lab experiments, they are also present in meteors. So I guess your probability calculation was a bit naff.

My hand is pretty complicated and so are the daily lives of single celled organisms. But again concidering how old the universe is and the shear size of it I suspect that even things of little chance (like amino acids forming)could,would and obviously do ocurre. But still this is not proof of GOD.

Also, I've tryed reasoning with god,having him do even the smallest thing to proove his existance and again nothing even close to proof ever comes out of it.

I guess you'll just respond with "well you weren't looking or concidering the given proof hard enough for it to be proof in your mind." Which again still isn't helping your argument that god exists or not.

Again what is the proof of anything being caused by god. And if god created everything than what created god. the only answer is nothing. the universe has always existed will always exist and is so mindboggling huge and complicated that it may take mellenia for us humans to soak it all in. But again still no evidence for god.

And Junglejake one other thing don't assume I haven't read a bunch of science books. I read Greys Anatomy from cover to cover (all 2000 pages of it) when I was 13. I read the Carl Sagans THe Cosmos and understood just about most of it when I was 8 years old. Later in life I took a strong interest in medicne-mainly in the field of Endocrinology. I was accepted to medical programs at collage and was on my way to becoming a doctor, but I decided I did indeed want to do more with my life, so I changed direction. I am not ignorant about physiology. My spelling may suck but not my understanding of science.

Therin lies the problem; you're on His territory, He's not on yours. First, you need to be receptive and willing to hear Him. He wants us to seek Him out. So, if you enter into your search knowing you're not going to find him, you're not going to. To take an example from His creation, look at particle physics -- you look for a photon to be a particle, you're going to observe a photon as a particle. You look for a photon to be a wave, you're going to observe a photon as a wave.

As to asking Him to prove himself by doing "x", you're getting your roles reversed. He is God, He's not a parlor trick, He's not a Las Vegas act. If you're truely seeking Him, you need to ask Him to reveal Himself to you. That's it. He knows how to speak to you, He knows you better than you know yourself. Yet, He is God. If you're really seeking Him, ask Him to prove Himself to you. That is when you'll get your proof, though it probably won't be instantly. In my case, it took several weeks before I even allowed the possibility of believing He might exist.

maybe you didn't read my post but I have asked him too proove himself, his existance in anyway that I would recognize. I think aliens are running around our upper atmosphere as I type this so it's not like I don't have an open mind/heart to the subject of god being real. I just haven't seen any evidence even when I've asked real nicely to god.

Question how come God can't give me any type of proof and let people like Hitler exist. Don't give me any free will stuff either, why would he create evil in the first place. Seems to me god is not on my side with anything. Paris Hiltons got a pretty good life. I think Paris Hilton was chosen by god to have so much abundance of great in her life, because she's such a good person.