Evidence for God

Originally posted by ModernDystopia

Originally posted by janasstar
I have one more thing to say. I have heard many Christians ask time and again, "why do the atheists persecute the Christians and not the other religions?" I think I figured it out. Because we have the, 'turn the other cheek' teaching. So people feel pretty safe pushing the Christians around.
Here's some food for thought; Aperson only has two cheeks. After that, it's every man for himself! :-))

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Atheists "persecute" (shall we discuss you and your fellow Christians' persecution of all non-believers several centuries ago?) Christians because out of all religions (other than Islam, perhaps) it is the most steeped in hypocrisy and its followers are the most affected by said hypocrisy. I know a lot of Hindus who believe in a lot of strange gods, but they also believe in and practice the peaceful philosophy of their religion. I don't know too many Christians that don't judge others, turn the other cheek, love their neighbor as they love themselves, et al. In fact, I know more atheists that practice some of the teachings of the Sermon on the mount than Christians.

If only modern Christians would follow the steps of say Justin Martyr and started practicing Christian Humanism. Or just stopped believing in an ancient fairy tale all together.

Also, thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I was around several centuries ago. I could check and get back with you on that.

Originally posted by ModernDystopia

Originally posted by janasstar
I have one more thing to say. I have heard many Christians ask time and again, "why do the atheists persecute the Christians and not the other religions?" I think I figured it out. Because we have the, 'turn the other cheek' teaching. So people feel pretty safe pushing the Christians around.
Here's some food for thought; Aperson only has two cheeks. After that, it's every man for himself! :-))

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Atheists "persecute" (shall we discuss you and your fellow Christians' persecution of all non-believers several centuries ago?) Christians because out of all religions (other than Islam, perhaps) it is the most steeped in hypocrisy and its followers are the most affected by said hypocrisy. I know a lot of Hindus who believe in a lot of strange gods, but they also believe in and practice the peaceful philosophy of their religion. I don't know too many Christians that don't judge others, turn the other cheek, love their neighbor as they love themselves, et al. In fact, I know more atheists that practice some of the teachings of the Sermon on the mount than Christians.

If only modern Christians would follow the steps of say Justin Martyr and started practicing Christian Humanism. Or just stopped believing in an ancient fairy tale all together.

Also, thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I was around several centuries ago. I could check and get back with you on that.

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by janasstar
I believe you would have to prove to me that that was Christians doing the persecuting of non-believers, and not the Catholics or some Puritan sect

Well, let's see.

After Constantine I (the first) converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion and the persecution began.

First, Lay Christians persecuted pagans in Rome under Constantine's rule.
Then you have the take over of Greece by Christianity.
Then you have the Saxon Wars, caused by Christianization.

And so on.

While Catholicism is arguably the sect of Christianity with the most blood on its hands, Christianity in general has been an extremely violent and intolerant religion. It's like arguing what kills someone: the bullet or the gun. Both do.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by ModernDystopia]

Originally posted by ModernDystopia

Originally posted by janasstar
I believe you would have to prove to me that that was Christians doing the persecuting of non-believers, and not the Catholics or some Puritan sect

Well, let's see.

After Constantine I (the first) converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion and the persecution began.

First, Lay Christians persecuted pagans in Rome under Constantine's rule.
Then you have the take over of Greece by Christianity.
Then you have the Saxon Wars, caused by Christianization.

And so on.

While Catholicism is arguably the sect of Christianity with the most blood on its hands, Christianity in general has been an extremely violent and intolerant religion. It's like arguing what kills someone: the bullet or the gun. Both do.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by ModernDystopia]

To be a Christian, you have to follow Christ's teachings. If they were doing these things, they clearly weren't Christians. I don't care what title they called themselves. Jesus said that many would come in His Name. They would be wolves in sheep's clothing. So, you have not proved to me that they were Christians. What if I threw the Satan worshippers in with the Atheists because I was just plain stupid?

Originally posted by janasstar

Originally posted by ModernDystopia

Originally posted by janasstar
I believe you would have to prove to me that that was Christians doing the persecuting of non-believers, and not the Catholics or some Puritan sect

Well, let's see.

After Constantine I (the first) converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion and the persecution began.

First, Lay Christians persecuted pagans in Rome under Constantine's rule.
Then you have the take over of Greece by Christianity.
Then you have the Saxon Wars, caused by Christianization.

And so on.

While Catholicism is arguably the sect of Christianity with the most blood on its hands, Christianity in general has been an extremely violent and intolerant religion. It's like arguing what kills someone: the bullet or the gun. Both do.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by ModernDystopia]

To be a Christian, you have to follow Christ's teachings. If they were doing these things, they clearly weren't Christians. I don't care what title they called themselves. Jesus said that many would come in His Name. They would be wolves in sheep's clothing. So, you have not proved to me that they were Christians. What if I threw the Satan worshippers in with the Atheists because I was just plain stupid?

No, to be a modern day Christian, you have to follow whichever of Christ's teachings is most convenient for you.

And a Satan worshiper could not be classified as an atheist by definition alone.

See how convenient it is for you guys to have standards that seperate you from groups that don't suit you. But let a Christian tell you that a bunch of rogue murderers don't fit intheir fold, and it's, "Oh yes they do!"

Just say that a bunch of Christians or Satan worshippers snuck into the atheist camp and started doing all told evil in the name of the atheist, and you were stuck with it thru all eternity; because they said they were atheists!

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

It's convenient that a Satan worshiper can't be an atheist because an atheist, by definition, doesn't believe in super-beings?

If you say so.

Originally posted by janasstar
Just say that a bunch of Christians or Satan worshippers snuck into the atheist camp and started doing all told evil in the name of the atheist, and you were stuck with it thru all eternity; because they said they were atheists!

so you're saying that all the things done wrong by christians were done by people that pretended to be christians so they could make christianity look bad?

that's just an insane level of paranoia right there

Originally posted by LancerJ1
I dont know what your going on about. I gave plenty of other evidence before i started talking about the bible. If God showed himself to us we would die from his glory.As i mentioned before we would die in God's presence.

....Umm did you see this happen before?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
I wonder how many people discredit the New Testament without reading it for themselves. Just as you shouldn't judge any book without reading it for yourself the same goes for the New Testament. It is only the size of a large novel, so please read it if you have not done so.

It is. It's also amazing how many people read the New Testament and not the Old. I've read both, several times. The Old is probably three times as big as the New.

Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell? If you are not willing to believe after reading the New Testament then there isnt anything more i can do. Ive tried to give logical reasons why God exists, and i find them very reasonable. If you do not believe after that, then it is no longer a logical problem but an intellectual one.

(P.S. If anyone who reads this and then believes it would be great to know

See, this is what bends my mind.

I am God. Allah, Yahweh, Ahura Mazda, whatever you want to call me, I'm it. I created EVERYTHING. Not just you. Not just your mum. Not just your street, your house, your car. I created your planet, I created the sun, the moon, the solar system, the stars and every other single galaxy stretching off into what is likely to be an infinite universe, populated entirely by me.

BUT

You. No, not the guy next to you or the woman behind, YOU! I'm watching you! Don't look at him for help, look at me, because I'm YOUR maker and I damn well care that you are observing my festivals, and generally being nice to each other! You WILL make sure you do as I say...


...I suppose my point is, the kid with the ant farm doesn't care how nice the ants are to each other.

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by Ersatz
There is no (that is none, zero, zilch) evidence that Jesus ever existed.
He was not a liar or madman or God, he just did not happen.
Jesus is a fairy tale, he is imaginary.

He was a sun god like Horus, Tammuz, Mithras. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
Following a star would lead you in circles.
Jesus was only given the status of "divine" after the Council of Nicea in325 ad.

What hystorical evidence are you talking about?

I love arguing against myself!

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed, mostly in the form of writing. Sure, it may be biased, being that it's all in favour of him existing and being a really important guy, and the fact that it's collected together in a book that many people believe to be fictitious, but it's still evidence. A group of people won't spontaneously come up with an idea to create the character of Jesus, the true, successful Messiah, just for the heck of it.

People have been using stars as a method of navigation for thousands of years. Why do you think it's called the North Star?

I agree there is evidence Jesus existed.

but is there any non biblical evidence of a man..born through miracle...calling himself God...performing miracles...and rose from the dead?

is there evidence for THAT Jesus?
show please

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Thanks heaps guys for your responses

I wonder how many people discredit the New Testament without reading it for themselves. Just as you shouldn't judge any book without reading it for yourself the same goes for the New Testament. It is only the size of a large novel, so please read it if you have not done so.

Some of you guys are still asking for evidence, but i gave it in my original post. I dont have all the answers to your questions, but there is evidence if your willing to look for it and accept it.

I don't understanded why some of you don't want to believe in God? I think people like the part of God which is warm and friendly but dont want to accept the justice part of God because it means punishment and restriction and dont want to give up their lives for God. But a perfect God must be perfectly just.

Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell? If you are not willing to believe after reading the New Testament then there isnt anything more i can do. Ive tried to give logical reasons why God exists, and i find them very reasonable. If you do not believe after that, then it is no longer a logical problem but an intellectual one.

(P.S. If anyone who reads this and then believes it would be great to know

I love how many christians discredit evolution without knowing about DNA etc.

I love how many christians I argue with don't know what "vague" means when I use that word to describe their texts....why argue with some who doesnt know BASIC definitions?

How many christians know about the red shift?Or background radiation?how many christians could point to the "dark ages" on a diagram of the big bang.
I wonder how many christians Dont even know that everything is space is moving outward...or how many galaxies there are.

the argument goes both ways.

but what if god does exist?What do you have to lose?!?!
this is a ridiculous argument.
if we convert to christianity for the sole purpose of going to heaven,then god will see through that and send us to that fiction place called hell.

there is no logical evidence for god.
12 million non aryans murdured..god did nothing.

people jumping from the 98th floor of the world trade center..god did nothing.

then STUPID people try and say stuff like...oh..well..I well..the people that survived the holocaust were people of faith!
wrong...the people that survived the holocaust were the rats,the people who lied..they stole..they did ANYTHING that would aid their survival.

also we dont WANT to believe(in god)...we want to know...

if god sends people like carl sagan to hell..then he can put me there too.
if heaven is full of christians..then I dont wanna be there.

Islamic firefighters = hell
doctors = hell
people who sacrafice themselves for others = hell

christians who say sorry = HEAVEN

your god is a monster.

Hello

Looking back on this thread and what I have written I do wish I could take back some of the things I wrote, in particular the part you quoted me on “Are you willing to risk not believing?”. I’ve been going about answering you guys the wrong way. I’ve been relying on my own knowledge and study instead of letting God giving me the words to write. Many of my replies are lacking in strength and authority because I relied on Man’s knowledge which is rubbish compared to God’s knowledge. Man’s wisdom is stupidity to God.

I’m only a young chap but I have grown closer to God since last time I was here and since then I have witnessed and experienced God’s intervention in my life and others.

Originally posted by Austin9599945
I love how many christians discredit evolution without knowing about DNA etc.

They read the bible and learn that God created the universe and every living creature and because of their faith and personal experiences with God they are assured of this and it is of no value to them to question God’s word over man made ideas.

There would be many Christian scientists out there and even some in genetics. It would be interesting what these guys have to say. As we know DNA is an incredible molecule and it is completely amazing how it works. For me and probably the Christian geneticists it’s just another mind blowing creation. There “God’s LEGO bricks”.

I actually am interested in science and the workings of this universe but where you may see proof of Gods non-existence I see proof of his wonderful works.

Another thing that has change since I was here last is I am now aware that I cannot prove to you God’s existence through writing here. All I can do is tell you what I believe and why I believe. If you like: “I can only show you the door, but you have to walk through it”.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
...I suppose my point is, the kid with the ant farm doesn't care how nice the ants are to each other.

Because the kid isn’t the creator of the ants. There is not a bond like there is between father and son, mother and daughter.

Originally posted by Austin9599945
How many christians know about the red shift?Or background radiation?how many christians could point to the "dark ages" on a diagram of the big bang.
I wonder how many christians Dont even know that everything is space is moving outward...or how many galaxies there are.

I reckon a lot more than you think. I remember learning about it in high school. Science does raise questions about the authenticity of the bible and how certain parts are senseless or how God could not possibly exist. I myself have questioned my beliefs because of this but I remember this is Man’s knowledge. I abide in the assurance that God’s knowledge is supreme.

"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the Lord. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

HEAVEN and HELL:

God should let good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell? That would be a totally unfair system of judgement. How could a good and bad person be defined? At what line do you have to cross to go from a good person to a bad person? If you were a mass murderer for the first half of your life then changed into a ‘good’ person would you go to heaven? It’s indefinite. You would not have any certainty where you would be going at judgement. You would be worrying where you end up. But God makes it simple and certain. Believe in me and you will be saved. I can be at peace because I know where I will be spending eternity.

Even the mass murderer has the chance to be saved. It would be unfair for his fate to be sealed because of his actions at some stage in his life. God believes in a second chance, and third, fourth, fifth...

Bad people go to heaven. We are all bad but the bad ones who ask for forgiveness for their badness are saved. Savvy?

Originally posted by Austin9599945
christians who say sorry = HEAVEN

ANYONE who says sorry and truly believes = Heaven. A Christian is only a Christian because he/she does say sorry and believes.

God gives everyone the opportunity to believe. In fact right through our lives he gives us heaps of opportunities to turn to him. The choice that we make is a reflection of our character. Denial is usually a result of selfishness. Now God is fair and would not cast a child into hell because that child would not of had ample opportunity to believe. Also those living in isolated communities such as in Africa or in the Amazon would may not of had the opportunity so again these people would be saved.

“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.” Luke 12:47-48

God is no monster. You have no idea how longingly He wants to have a relationship with you. How incredible is that! The creator of this universe wants your friendship!

What on earth makes the story of jesus and god more important than other religions. Others have died for there beliefs also.

reply to post by sc2300

* The incredible influence it has had over the last 2000 years and how it continues to transform peoples lives.
* This God is a living God and He can be experienced at a personal level.
* The fact that there are so many separate individual manuscripts that corroborate the same details.
* He is not a God of some physical thing like the sun, moon or thunder but is the God that created these things and everything else. He is not 'a' god but 'THE' God.
* He is a God for everyone, not just for a specific nationality of people.
* God freely offers eternal life to those who accept him. This eternal life is easier to have then in any other religion.
* Obedience to God brings success and safety.
* Anything asked for in prayer in Jesus’ name will be given (I know this works for sure).

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; those who seek find; and to those who knock, the door will be opened. Matt 7:7-8

* The Bible is far more detailed in descriptions then any other religious book and is deemed the most accurate.
* The multitudes of prophecies fulfilled and 100% accuracy. No other religion can boast anything like this. And remember the prophecies in the Old testament were only realised once they had been fulfilled in the New Testament. Fullfilled prophecies

reply to post by LancerJ1


"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
II Timothy 2:15

This New Testament verse clearly states that God expects man to prove himself unto God.

"And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 22:2

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me."
Genesis 22:12

These Old Testament verses clearly state Gods command for Abraham to prove himself to God.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
I John 4:1

This New Testament verse clearly states Gods command to prove whether the spirits are of God.

The obvious point here is that God throughout the Bible expects man to prove himself unto God, and God expects man to make the spirits prove they are from God.

To suggest that mankind does not need absolute proof of Gods existence in order to believe in God is not Biblically sound.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus was our example and just as God requires mankind to prove himself, God as well must prove himself to mankind.

According to the Bible, Jesus proved the existence of God on a continuous basis through miracles such as raising people from the dead, healing lepers, turning water into wine, healing the blind, and the crippled.

Jesus example clearly makes the case that Jesus exacted of himself in accordance with Gods will, proof of Gods existence prior to mans acceptance of God. As well God expects man to prove himself unto God before God will accept him.

To suggest that the need for proof of Gods existence is in error, or, a lack of faith is not Biblically supported.

What appears to have happened is that the state of mankinds belief and devotion to God has deteriorated to such a point that man no longer has a sufficient relationship with God to manifest the wonders of God. So it seems the only option left to try and mask mankinds spiritual downfall is to claim that one must have faith to believe in God.

Faith is not the means by which we believe in God.
A belief in God requires proof from God.
Jesus was proof that God existed.
Abraham was proof that God existed.
Moses was proof that God existed.

Just because we do not have spiritual leaders at this time capable of proving the existence of God does not mean proof of God is no longer required.

Faith is what those who believe in God utilize to comfort and sustain themselves in times of weakness, and where God has yet to reveal his mysteries.

Present day mankind has replaced proof with faith.
Proof enables mankind to believe in God.
Faith sustains mankinds belief in God.

CybrSeer

reply to post by SkyWay




[edit on 11-2-2008 by cybrseer]

[edit on 11-2-2008 by cybrseer]