Evidence for God

Originally posted by glastonaut
Are there any instances of God talking to someone who isn't interested?

Moses, Saul and others.

It seems the desire to have God in their life blinds people to the fact that their beliefs are nothing more than personal opinions with no factual basis at all. There seems to be a lot of looking-down on non-believers as well, I guess to inflate the ego of the believer. Again, show me a believer who doesn't think they have gained some "afterlife" advantage over others through their faith, or that their faith is more correct than others. My beliefs are falsifiable, and open to scrutiny due to me being unable to know everything. And thats the main paradox with this thread, you are attempting to apply science to a hypothesis that rejects scientific method.

It also seems the desire not to have God in peoples lifes blinds them from the logic and credibility that there is a God. People pick out the small problems that Christians find hard to answer but ignore the more important parts. Science is only as good as ourselves. Our understanding is limited but we have no concept of anything higher, so we think what we know must be right.

Have your own philosophy and dare I say, delusion, if you want, but don't even attempt to pass off an opinion as a universal fact. If you choose faith over science then you have rendered your view of the world as applicable to only one person.. you. I'm not saying this is good or bad (if the idea of God gives YOU comfort, then it is good), just don't expect your view to stand up to any scientific scrutiny.

The title of this thread remains unresolved.

Science works with Christianity more than you think but i will trust Gods understanding before i trust a human's.

And it's not the idea of God i have, but the full hearted knowledge and feeling of his existence and presence. If only you would have this to then this argument would end.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by melatonin
Some nice verbal/logical gymnastics, and total ignorance of reality there. Summary: "God can do everything therefore reality doesn't matter"

God is not limited to our bounds of reality. This is GOD we're talking about.

So all the interpretations that state the earth and universe are billions of years old are false???? Most of these contrary theories, when scrutinised, fall flat on their face. Do you have any of these theories to scrutinise????

It's possible. www.answersingenesis.org...

Maybe if you have a jester god it is possible.

We are talking about multiple strands of evidence indicating an old earth, tree rings, ice cores, varves, radio-dating, corals, supernovas etc etc all from totally diverse regions of science, depending on different mechanisms, giving the same answer - in this case a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong.

Why would this be?

Is your god having a laugh?

Then we can talk about the chronological change in life over time - theory of evolution, geological evidence, biogeography (spatial distibution of species). Creation science is a misnomer, it is pseudoscience.

Taking what you said before - basically, god is a magic-man, why do you even need to present evidence from AIG? Remember this is god we are talking about, so why even bother studying reality? Why even care about the historical nature of the bible, reality don't matter. He can change evidence at will, create whales before insects, plants before the sun, and then make it look conclusively like these things are impossible.

And from genesis II...

king James.

19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

revised standard.

19: So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Hebrew translation

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man would call every living creature, that was to be the name thereof.

american standard

And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

youngs

And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that [is] its name.

www.gospelhall.org...

We'll ignore that all the evidence shows that man came a long time after most life forms, in fact very recently - a few million years ago, whereas we can find signs of life a few hundred of millions of years ago. But it don't matter, this god, she can do what she likes, she gives man intelligence then plays with their heads.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by melatonin]

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud

Well thats debateable as well, christian apologists say that thousands of christians were persecuted and the apostles martyred but the historical data says otherwise - Origen stated that very few christians had been martyred. Plus there is NO real evidence that most of the apostles even existed (recorded only in the writings and traditions of early church leaders). Traditions that cannot be substantiated by historical data.

Regardless of this, i cant see how Christianity could of started if their was never a Jesus. There is only a church because of Jesus.

Quite easily - you dont believe in Allah or Horus or Ahura Mazda and religions have appeared based on these deities.

I know for fact that lame walking is true. Inform me of similar miracles in other religions.

You know for fact? How was it you? - Unless I see it with my own eyes then you can babble away to your hearts content about miracles. There are hundreds or sites containing religious miracles from other religions (Google it) and all the pagan godmen performed miracles.

I heard it from someone who saw it and i trust them 100%. Ok, miracles do happen in paganism. Any miracle not performed in the name of God, is by demons.

The usual ' my friend saw it and they dont lie' answer - I would have to see it with my OWN eyes or have it happen to me. So your god would be considered a demon to a Zoroastrian

So all the interpretations that state the earth and universe are billions of years old are false???? Most of these contrary theories, when scrutinised, fall flat on their face. Do you have any of these theories to scrutinise????

It's possible. www.answersingenesis.org...

And do you subscribe to these explainations???

How can you have spiritual realisations if you dont believe in God?

You dont have to believe in a deity to be spiritual - look at buddhism.

What type of evidence do you want me to show you? I given you prophecies and miracles but you reject these.

These are not evidence!!!!! the prohecies are not fullfilled in my eyes nor many others either and as I have said most miracles are fraudulent or have a rational explanation - there is no reason to attribute any of these to a deity (even the other religions miracles)

Although there are things the Bible and archaeology disagree on, there is no conclusive proof of any error. Because archaeology has fitted with the Bible so well it is not unreasonable to say the error is in the interpretation of the evidence. Archaeology reinforces the Bible more than disagrees.

I agree that some of the historicity of the bible has been confirmed by archaeologists but none of this confirms the divinity of the bible nor any of the main stories i.e. Look at Jericho for instance, archaeologists have found traces of settlements dating back 11,000 years which according to YEC's shouldnt be the case. Also the bible chronolgy for the destruction of jericho by joshua doesnt fit the archaeology. There are many more archaeological anomalies that dont fit the bible story.



G

is it only me, or does the existence of god bring up more problems than it solves

just 2 examples
it creates the "burrito paradox"
and
the problem of predestination

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Thanks heaps guys for your responses

I wonder how many people discredit the New Testament without reading it for themselves. Just as you shouldn't judge any book without reading it for yourself the same goes for the New Testament. It is only the size of a large novel, so please read it if you have not done so.

Some of you guys are still asking for evidence, but i gave it in my original post. I dont have all the answers to your questions, but there is evidence if your willing to look for it and accept it.

I don't understanded why some of you don't want to believe in God? I think people like the part of God which is warm and friendly but dont want to accept the justice part of God because it means punishment and restriction and dont want to give up their lives for God. But a perfect God must be perfectly just.

I don't believe in god ... either in his/her/its warm and fuzzy ways or in his evil ways. I live my life by a set of moral codes that probably fall mostly in line with what the bible requires of a good god fearing individual. I don't do it out of some fear of what an afterlife holds for me.

One of my big problems in buying into a god belief system is that people seem to want to give him the credit for all the warm and fuzzies but not for any of the ugliness. If there's some sort of tragedy and an individual comes forward and risks him/herself to save others you hear many people "thanking god" that he sent this person to help them. But if someone goes into a store and kills some people you don't hear "where was god .. why did he do that"?

To me you can't have it both ways ... either he is responsible for the good and bad or for nothing. And if there is a god why are there so many evil events around our world? Especially involving children, the truly innocent. If we all are "gods children" why is he complacent to allow us to wander in such a dangerous world. I'm not talking about those "tempted by evil" (criminals) but the innocent victims in the world, many who may believe in god, who have crimes perpetrated against them.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell?

You say "maybe god doesn't exist but what if he does?" So under that logic I should believe in god as a type of insurance plan against eternal damnation? Is that a true belief in a god, will that sort of deception actually get me past the pearly gates of heaven?

My problems with this form of god ... one where no matter what you've done with your life if you don't believe you go to hell ... is god really that petty? Does he truly care if I believe in him? So here I spend my life treating my fellow man in kindess, contributing to the safety of my community and when I perish he will not evaluate my life on what I have done but only if I have believed in him? So under this logic Charles Manson may get to heaven but I get to go to hell??

I'm thinking with a dictator like that in charge maybe I don't really want to be there. Maybe everyone there is happy because their either delusional or too scared to speak out against the great one.

To be truthful I don't believe in god, heaven or hell. If I'm wrong when I die and get judged I would only assume a god who created his children would rather judge his children based on their deeds and how they lived their lives rather than their blind faith. I'll find out eventually if I'm wrong or right.

I have read a good chunk of the bible (by no way have I read the entire book) but I found nothing in there that is undisputable proof of anything. There are good stories in there that are trying to teach moral values about right/wrong and how to treat your fellow man. I don't think many of the stories could be "verified" in any scientifically acceptable way. Just the fact that this book was circulated in many numbers prior to a printing press (meaning it had to been hand copied) and that there are so many "versions" of gods word makes me wonder the validity of any version.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Out of all major world religious leaders, Jesus was the only one who actually claimed to be God, claimed he could give eternal life, claimed he could give forgiveness at a future judgment and claimed that his teaching was for every person of all ages in the world.

im almost positive that the spiritual figureheads of some eastern religions have made similar claims.

If Jesus was a madman he wouldn’t come back from the dead. But there were hundreds of people who witnessed his resurrection from the dead. If we call Jesus a liar, then you would have to call these hundreds of people liars also. Just as Jesus died for his claim, hundreds of people also were killed because they claimed to be eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. Would hundreds of people be willing to suffer torture and terrible deaths while knowing it was all a lie?

Many eyewitnesses claimed that Jesus after his resurrection ate meals with them and spoke with them. These people are either telling the truth or purposely making it up. Even some people opposing Jesus ended up believing. Saul of Tarsus (later called Paul) received great pleasure executing Christians but after an encounter with Jesus after his resurrection he too became a follower and wrote many of the books of the New Testament. Paul was beheaded because of his belief. Why would he do all this if it was a lie?

did you ever stop to consider that the people who allegedly saw and ate with jesus after his alleged resurrection, might have been made up by the church to further perpetuate the myth of the resurrection of jesus?

it is well known that the catholic church edits, or has edited, the bible. wouldnt it then be safe to assume that this "story" of the bible, would also be based off of manufactured truth (except of course for the existence of jesus)?
[edit on 11/13/2006 by prototism]

[edit on 11/13/2006 by prototism]

[edit on 11/13/2006 by prototism]

Originally posted by melatonin
Maybe if you have a jester god it is possible.

We are talking about multiple strands of evidence indicating an old earth, tree rings, ice cores, varves, radio-dating, corals, supernovas etc etc all from totally diverse regions of science, depending on different mechanisms, giving the same answer - in this case a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong.

Why would this be?

As i said this is ok with me. It is possible that creation was over a long period. But also not all evidence adds up to Earth being billions of years old. The atmosphere may have been different with the first people, like having a water vapour region in the upper atmosphere. That would explain the huge amount of water during the great flood. This vapour would block more harmful radiation from the sun which would render several methods of dating this far back as useless. It also would help explain longer life spans back then.

Taking what you said before - basically, god is a magic-man, why do you even need to present evidence from AIG?

Because you asked for it.

Remember this is god we are talking about, so why even bother studying reality? Why even care about the historical nature of the bible, reality don't matter. He can change evidence at will, create whales before insects, plants before the sun, and then make it look conclusively like these things are impossible.

Good point, that is the problem you guys have, being to bound to human reality. God doesn't change evidence and it isnt conclusive that these things God has done is impossible.

Originally posted by shihulud
Quite easily - you dont believe in Allah or Horus or Ahura Mazda and religions have appeared based on these deities.

Allah was claimed by Mohammad, others probably came about due to an event that was asscociated to a god, like thunder and things they cannot see. But Jesus was God in the flesh on Earth, no other religion has this unique fact.

The usual ' my friend saw it and they dont lie' answer - I would have to see it with my OWN eyes or have it happen to me. So your god would be considered a demon to a Zoroastrian

This was said by this person in a speech to the whole church about her mission trip to Africa. If you want to see such things with your own eyes, go to a church or get involved in some Christian event and you absolutely will see miracles and feel that these people are different in some way and you will want to have what they have.

Im not a Zoroastrian so i have know idea.

You dont have to believe in a deity to be spiritual - look at buddhism.

But Buddhism is a belief in something which in this case is enlightenment.

These are not evidence!!!!! the prohecies are not fullfilled in my eyes nor many others either and as I have said most miracles are fraudulent or have a rational explanation - there is no reason to attribute any of these to a deity (even the other religions miracles)

None fullfilled, that's ridiculous. You have no knowledge that most miracles are fraudulent. An opinion conceived from your determination not to believe. I reckon praying for something and then recieving what you requested immediatly is a good reason to attribute it to God.
www.therefinersfire.org...
www.100prophecies.org...

I agree that some of the historicity of the bible has been confirmed by archaeologists but none of this confirms the divinity of the bible nor any of the main stories i.e. Look at Jericho for instance, archaeologists have found traces of settlements dating back 11,000 years which according to YEC's shouldnt be the case. Also the bible chronolgy for the destruction of jericho by joshua doesnt fit the archaeology. There are many more archaeological anomalies that dont fit the bible story.

I agree, it doesn't confirm the divinity of the Bible, it is simply in there because of the Bibles very nature.

Show me this evidence about Jericho.
www.christiananswers.net...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is it only me, or does the existence of god bring up more problems than it solves

just 2 examples
it creates the "burrito paradox"
and
the problem of predestination

Could you please explain these problems?

Paradoxes are only paradoxes due to the limit of human understanding.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
One of my big problems in buying into a god belief system is that people seem to want to give him the credit for all the warm and fuzzies but not for any of the ugliness. If there's some sort of tragedy and an individual comes forward and risks him/herself to save others you hear many people "thanking god" that he sent this person to help them. But if someone goes into a store and kills some people you don't hear "where was god .. why did he do that"?

God isn't accountable for anybody's actions. God can tempt people to do good like in your first case, and Satan tempts people to do evil like in the second case.

To me you can't have it both ways ... either he is responsible for the good and bad or for nothing. And if there is a god why are there so many evil events around our world? Especially involving children, the truly innocent. If we all are "gods children" why is he complacent to allow us to wander in such a dangerous world. I'm not talking about those "tempted by evil" (criminals) but the innocent victims in the world, many who may believe in god, who have crimes perpetrated against them.

There is evil because of sin and God will stop all this at the world's ending. This is a dangerous world and that's why he wants you to let him guide you.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell?

You say "maybe god doesn't exist but what if he does?" So under that logic I should believe in god as a type of insurance plan against eternal damnation? Is that a true belief in a god, will that sort of deception actually get me past the pearly gates of heaven?

That is why i specifically said "This isnt the way you should look at it". You shouldn't believe out of fear but from genuine faith, but yet it is still the reality of it all.

My problems with this form of god ... one where no matter what you've done with your life if you don't believe you go to hell ... is god really that petty? Does he truly care if I believe in him? So here I spend my life treating my fellow man in kindess, contributing to the safety of my community and when I perish he will not evaluate my life on what I have done but only if I have believed in him? So under this logic Charles Manson may get to heaven but I get to go to hell??

We are all bad people, we all do wrong. Someone who breaks the law once is a bad who has broken all of the laws. Sin is an infinite transgression against God and all sin must be punished. God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. 'Good' people can go to Hell and bad people can go to Heaven. It is so simple to avoid Hell, just believe. If God judged us by how much good we do in our lives how would it be possible to determine how much 'good' is enough. Know one would know if they were going to heaven or Hell. But by the way it is you can surely know if you are going to heaven if you have the belief.

I'm thinking with a dictator like that in charge maybe I don't really want to be there. Maybe everyone there is happy because their either delusional or too scared to speak out against the great one.

God doesnt send anyone to Hell. It is a place people choose.

Just the fact that this book was circulated in many numbers prior to a printing press (meaning it had to been hand copied) and that there are so many "versions" of gods word makes me wonder the validity of any version.

There are differernt version but they all give the same reading.

Originally posted by prototism
im almost positive that the spiritual figureheads of some eastern religions have made similar claims.

I would be interested to hear about them.

did you ever stop to consider that the people who allegedly saw and ate with jesus after his alleged resurrection, might have been made up by the church to further perpetuate the myth of the resurrection of jesus?

The Church is the people and if a few people made something up the rest of the followers would know that it wasn't true.

it is well known that the catholic church edits, or has edited, the bible. wouldnt it then be safe to assume that this "story" of the bible, would also be based off of manufactured truth (except of course for the existence of jesus)?

What is the evidence for this?

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Allah was claimed by Mohammad, others probably came about due to an event that was asscociated to a god, like thunder and things they cannot see. But Jesus was God in the flesh on Earth, no other religion has this unique fact.

No he wasnt - More likely that jesus is a jewish manifestation of pagan godmen that has been literally taken as history

The usual ' my friend saw it and they dont lie' answer - I would have to see it with my OWN eyes or have it happen to me. So your god would be considered a demon to a Zoroastrian

This was said by this person in a speech to the whole church about her mission trip to Africa. If you want to see such things with your own eyes, go to a church or get involved in some Christian event and you absolutely will see miracles and feel that these people are different in some way and you will want to have what they have.

Oh and because she told the WHOLE church is absolutely true??? LOL what a crock of B$, she c(w)ould be lying through her back teeth to make her story sound better. Look at televangelists that lie to get money.

You dont have to believe in a deity to be spiritual - look at buddhism.

But Buddhism is a belief in something which in this case is enlightenment.

I believe in being enlightened, I also believe in the truth - so how does that make me any different to a buddhist???? However they still dont believe in a god so you are wrong in your assessment that you need a god to be spiritual.

None fullfilled, that's ridiculous. You have no knowledge that most miracles are fraudulent. An opinion conceived from your determination not to believe. I reckon praying for something and then recieving what you requested immediatly is a good reason to attribute it to God.

There are none fulfilled! e.g in the first link :-
1. Israel has still got enemies, And Iran wants to wipe them from the face of the earth.
2 - 4. Bit obvious that one
5. Assumption that christianity is Israel - B$
6. Religion dependant - Muslims wouldnt say so
blah blah blah
Prayer doesn't work!!!!!!!

Show me this evidence about Jericho.
www.christiananswers.net...

Maybe if you would stop using christian biased sites and use sites that have no bias or read the archaeologists reports you might get on a lot better. Try wiki or have a look on google scholar - I'm not doing it for you


G

Originally posted by shihulud
No he wasnt - More likely that jesus is a jewish manifestation of pagan godmen that has been literally taken as history

Why? This does not follow logic with the evidence we have. It is far more logical to say a man named Jesus existed regardless of whether you believe he is the Son of God or not.

Oh and because she told the WHOLE church is absolutely true??? LOL what a crock of B$, she c(w)ould be lying through her back teeth to make her story sound better. Look at televangelists that lie to get money.

What is your problem, have you had a bad run in with Christians?

But she is not a televangelist, she has nothing to gain from lying. You believe what you want, but it is your own loss.

I believe in being enlightened, I also believe in the truth - so how does that make me any different to a buddhist???? However they still dont believe in a god so you are wrong in your assessment that you need a god to be spiritual.

You've misunderstood me. I agreed that buddhist were spiritrual because of there belief in enlightenment. If you believe in enlightenment also then my apologies, you are spiritual.

There are none fulfilled! e.g in the first link :-
1. Israel has still got enemies, And Iran wants to wipe them from the face of the earth.
2 - 4. Bit obvious that one
5. Assumption that christianity is Israel - B$
6. Religion dependant - Muslims wouldnt say so
blah blah blah
Prayer doesn't work!!!!!!!

I dont know how you've deduced this. In the first one, Israel is still standing after all attacks. What's wrong with 2-4? What's wrong with 5? Christianity did originate from Israel. Nothing wrong with 6, Muslims wouldn't say so for the very fact that their Muslims.

You cant say prayer doesnt work until you've tried it. But first you need to believe to do that.

Maybe if you would stop using christian biased sites and use sites that have no bias or read the archaeologists reports you might get on a lot better. Try wiki or have a look on google scholar - I'm not doing it for you

Any site will have some kind of bias. Wiki is not reliable for accurate info. On google scholar i found i few more sites on why this does not disprove the Bible. Besides that i cant find any decent info on it disproving the bible. Really, it is up to you to provide it.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud
No he wasnt - More likely that jesus is a jewish manifestation of pagan godmen that has been literally taken as history

Why? This does not follow logic with the evidence we have. It is far more logical to say a man named Jesus existed regardless of whether you believe he is the Son of God or not.

Why? Is it logical to assume Horus, Mithras and a whole host of other godmen existed because they have been written down?? I will admit there are one or two things that DO make me believe that a historical jesus existed but there are more things that infer he is a myth.

Oh and because she told the WHOLE church is absolutely true??? LOL what a crock of B$, she c(w)ould be lying through her back teeth to make her story sound better. Look at televangelists that lie to get money.

What is your problem, have you had a bad run in with Christians?

But she is not a televangelist, she has nothing to gain from lying. You believe what you want, but it is your own loss.

Why is it my loss if I dont believe your faith in the first place? I have no problems with christians or any religious group as such, what I do have a problem with is your assumption that yours is the correct one and we are all wrong when your religion is based on faith in mythical beings.

There are none fulfilled! e.g in the first link :-
1. Israel has still got enemies, And Iran wants to wipe them from the face of the earth.
2 - 4. Bit obvious that one
5. Assumption that christianity is Israel - B$
6. Religion dependant - Muslims wouldnt say so
blah blah blah
Prayer doesn't work!!!!!!!

I dont know how you've deduced this. In the first one, Israel is still standing after all attacks. What's wrong with 2-4? What's wrong with 5? Christianity did originate from Israel. Nothing wrong with 6, Muslims wouldn't say so for the very fact that their Muslims.

First off Israel in the first century was a state that never even contained jerusalem (judea) not a country. 2-4 are so ambiguous that any inferrence can be made, 5 - what about the jews and muslims in israel??????? and 6 - I thought Mecca and Medina would have had higher admiration from the muslims!!!!

You cant say prayer doesnt work until you've tried it. But first you need to believe to do that.

Whether or not you believe, there is no evidence to suggest that a) prayer actually works and b) the effect comes from a deity

Maybe if you would stop using christian biased sites and use sites that have no bias or read the archaeologists reports you might get on a lot better. Try wiki or have a look on google scholar - I'm not doing it for you

Any site will have some kind of bias. Wiki is not reliable for accurate info. On google scholar i found i few more sites on why this does not disprove the Bible. Besides that i cant find any decent info on it disproving the bible. Really, it is up to you to provide it.

Wiki is less biased than Answersingenesis.com or whatever. And why is it up to me to disprove the bible when I dont believe it anyway? Should it not be up to you as your making the claim that the bible is the truth? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs, of which you have provided none.



G

I love arguing against myself!...

..........That's a good one

Originally posted by merky

I love arguing against myself!...

....

...

...That's a good one

Can I have some of what your smokin?????

Your the first person to post here in nearly a month and the last poster was me, so who are you arguing with???


G

I dont believe in god, but i do. It makes no sense but its hard to believe in him since you were told about him your whole entire life and youve never ever seen him before. Even though you might pray to him every night and when you feel like crap and you pray to him to just give you a sign, just a little one.....there's nothing. How the hell can i believe in that, technically since if i did believe in him i would believe in nothing since he is nothing....................so screw him.

Lancer I totally agree with you. I firmly believe Jesus is Lord and He exists.

Your arguments are extremely logical. Why would people die for a total lie? If Jesus was making it all up, then why would he endure his flesh being striped from his back, thorns thrust into his skull and nailed to a cross just to say, "I'm lying, but I won't give in?"

Good point on early Christians also. If it was all a lie why would they endure horrible torture for it? Some were even given "outs" so to speak. If they just confessed they were lying they would be spared, but they refused and were killed horribly. Why? Did some mental illness just infect all followers of Jesus so they would be liars like him? Nope!

I know God exists. He showed me His power one night. This is no lie what I am about to say, although others will doubt me, most everyone does, but it is the truth.

I was in college and I was telling a friend about a book I read called "The Devils of D-Day" The guy who wrote the book used acutal satanic spells and demon names in the book. I mentioned the name of one of the demons in the book and it actually appeared in the room. It looked like a dirty snowball with a huge eye in the middle of it. I then felt a soul crushing pressure as if I was descending into the blackest hell imaginable or if I was at the bottom of a sea full of pure hate.

I pointed at that thing and said, "In the name of Jesus leave!" and it flew out of the room like its tail was on fire. The blackenss also fled and I felt as if I was in the presence of millions of angels and Jesus himself (I didn't see them, but I could feel them). My friend knew something had happened because his head was paralyzed when the demon was present and he couldnt lift his head.

This is a true story. Nope, wasn't on drugs ( I never did drugs in my life). Wasn't drunk (I don't drink either). I was totally sober and fully aware at all times.

After this experience there is NO ONE who can convince me God doesn't exist.

Originally posted by ozmorphus
Lancer I totally agree with you. I firmly believe Jesus is Lord and He exists.

Your arguments are extremely logical. Why would people die for a total lie?

well, you contradict yourself. people have died in the name of a number of religions that you believe are total lies

If Jesus was making it all up, then why would he endure his flesh being striped from his back, thorns thrust into his skull and nailed to a cross just to say, "I'm lying, but I won't give in?"

he wouldn't be the first person to die for something that they made up

Good point on early Christians also. If it was all a lie why would they endure horrible torture for it? Some were even given "outs" so to speak. If they just confessed they were lying they would be spared, but they refused and were killed horribly. Why?

i honestly wouldn't know why, but it wouldn't be the first time that people died horribly for their religion.

why would people not convert from paganism during the inquisition?

Did some mental illness just infect all followers of Jesus so they would be liars like him? Nope!

well, nobody claims that they were infected by a mental illness.

I know God exists. He showed me His power one night. This is no lie what I am about to say, although others will doubt me, most everyone does, but it is the truth.

then why won't your god show his power to the millions of starving children on the planet and feed them? why won't god show amputees his power and regrow their limbs?

I was in college and I was telling a friend about a book I read called "The Devils of D-Day" The guy who wrote the book used acutal satanic spells and demon names in the book. I mentioned the name of one of the demons in the book and it actually appeared in the room. It looked like a dirty snowball with a huge eye in the middle of it. I then felt a soul crushing pressure as if I was descending into the blackest hell imaginable or if I was at the bottom of a sea full of pure hate.

I pointed at that thing and said, "In the name of Jesus leave!" and it flew out of the room like its tail was on fire. The blackenss also fled and I felt as if I was in the presence of millions of angels and Jesus himself (I didn't see them, but I could feel them). My friend knew something had happened because his head was paralyzed when the demon was present and he couldnt lift his head.

This is a true story. Nope, wasn't on drugs ( I never did drugs in my life). Wasn't drunk (I don't drink either). I was totally sober and fully aware at all times.

After this experience there is NO ONE who can convince me God doesn't exist.

well, your god seems to be a bit of a... well, i'm going to have to say jerk because stronger language will violate the terms of this board
he'll save you from supposed demons but won't feed starving children or heal amputees....

I rarely get inot arguments with non believers because I believe and if they don't then it is their soul that is lost, not mine.

In the end all the arguments about God vs no God, Creation vs Evolution are a waste of time anyway.

If when we all die and there is no God then what will all the arguing matter. We wont know we were wrong are right because we will be dead.

But....

If when we die there is a God as described by Christianity, what will those who refused to believe feel at the moment they have to face Him and atone for their non-belief and sins?