TIME: Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
The biggest problem of the article is that it shows a ignorant bias, and doesn't consider the other side of the argument. Poorly written, and poorly researched, it's laughable.

My point exactly MacDonagh.. if this article was put together by real experts and took each of the conspiracies.. which are many all tied into one big one, and answered each one with "facts" far more researched then the ones given, I would have no problem with the article.

My problem is that it is the worst piece of reporting I have ever read. This article appears hastily put together by someone with limited knowledge of the actual conspiracy movement.

He refers to Loose Change as gaining momentum not because it shows facts or what could be facts or simply by pointing out 9/11 needs to at least be investigated, he simply states it is popular because those in world no. 2 try and see world no. 1 through laymen's terms.

Apparently we are to dumb to except the facts that hijackers took box cutters, hijacked a few airlines at once, went unnoticed, evaded the worlds best air force completely, struck the most important financial building in the world through impossible maneuvering, with little flight training, struck the worlds most important military complex while never being seen, pulling again impossible maneuvering to hit the short building leaving no wreckage behind, and then that every building they hit fell down including building 7 which was supposed according to TIME facts brought down because of a leaky generator.

That is 9/11 in the world no. 1 in accordance with TIME.

It just looks like propaganda to me, like Bush said "Hey, them conspiracy folks are gettin outa hand, lets start a campaign to turn them into a laughing stock!" and then TIME comes out with this, we have seen several incidents where 9/11 truth movement people where brought on the airwaves and laughed or yelled off the stage. Mostly yelled at and never given a chance to speak.

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And what are the chances that an operation of such size--it would surely have involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel--could be carried out without a single leak? Without leaving behind a single piece of evidence hard enough to stand up to scrutiny in a court? People, the feds just aren't that slick. Nobody is.


It surely wouldve involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel? WHY? Why would it require hundreds? On what grounds would Time base this arguement on?

Apparently though the hundreds of terrorist, the massive communications needed, the massive influx of money needed all went unoticed by the federal government or we are to believe that 19 hijackers simply did it with little communication to the outside world. If poor uneducated terrorist can pull off the attack of the century I personally think a few high level brass could as well. Maybe even better!

Originally posted by RockpuckThey approach the conspiracies around 9/11 as a joke, they refer to those who honestly think it happend by the hand of our own government as living in a second world.

Do you not believe the world as you understand it, the world you live in, is a different one from those who subscribe to the official story? Is that the most offensive thing Time has to say about you?

People who believe the second explanation live in a very different world from those who believe the first. In world No. 2, al-Qaeda is not responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center. The U.S. government is. The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial jet; it was hit by a cruise missile. United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter. The entire catastrophe was planned and executed by federal officials in order to provide the U.S. with a pretext for going to war in the Middle East and, by extension, as a means of consolidating and extending the power of the Bush Administration.

The article first gives credence to conspiracy theories and then presents the alternative explanations, without ever ridiculing the CTs themselves.

What more do you want?

Originally posted by RockpuckIf poor uneducated terrorist can pull off the attack of the century I personally think a few high level brass could as well. Maybe even better!

Poor and uneducated.... Bin Laden, the pilot hijackers?

Maybe you should do some basic research before assembling your arguments.

I'm not a 9/11 conspirarcy 'loon', I believe that it was carried out by terrorist groups.

But I do not agree with:

United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter.

I worked next to the trade center.....one of my suborinates has/had a brother in MI (military intelligence).....before evacuating the building that day, my employee told me that Flt 93 was shot down.

It was just to soon that day for a lie to come out immediately after it happened.

That quote in particular reminds me of that scene in the Matrix with Neo and Smith sitting at the interrogation table. Smith says something like:

you are living 2 identities,
1 as a computer programmer named Mr. Anderson (yadda yadda yadda)
the other as a hacker named Neo (yada yadda)

one of these personas has a future, the other does not.

We all end up knowing which of his personas has a future, but we have to wait until later in the movie to find out. Same here, one of these worlds is fake, the other real (or at least a little less of a lie) and given enough time, and effort, we will find which one.

Ferrett, I would say that a report coming out that quickly wouldnt necessarily be a lie, but infact just be faulty information. He probably heard it went down, and interpretted it as "they MUSTVE shot it down."

Hell, I was in school that day, you know what the first thing I was told? that New York was just NUKED!

Why are all of you getting so upset? Time is just exposing the "Truth" (substitute Nutcase) Movement for what it is!

I would find it a little difficult that an individual who was/is in MI and on duty that morning to make an error that a plane has been shot down by the US Air Force or crashed by a rush of people. He 'supposedly' heard the order.

Originally posted by KnowItAll
Why are all of you getting so upset? Time is just exposing the "Truth" (substitute Nutcase) Movement for what it is!

If they did that, they'd actually use facts. Instead they skirt scientific issues, refuse to debate head to head, and take quick jab attacks as they hide and call names.

They attack the mentality of people, not the facts.

Theyre not exposing anything.

Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by KnowItAll
Why are all of you getting so upset? Time is just exposing the "Truth" (substitute Nutcase) Movement for what it is!

If they did that, they'd actually use facts. Instead they skirt scientific issues, refuse to debate head to head, and take quick jab attacks as they hide and call names.

They attack the mentality of people, not the facts.

Theyre not exposing anything.

Bottomline, the various 9-11 CT's don't hold up to scrutiny, and they've been debated/debunked by numerous thread here, and other places. It's like the old saying, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck...must be a duck..except on this board..then if it looks/sounds like a duck..must be a chicken!

Originally posted by Rockpuck

They approach the conspiracies around 9/11 as a joke, they refer to those who honestly think it happend by the hand of our own government as living in a second world.

That's because they are!!!!!!!!!!





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Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 9/6/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by KnowItAll
[
Bottomline, the various 9-11 CT's don't hold up to scrutiny, and they've been debated/debunked by numerous thread here, and other places. It's like the old saying, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck...must be a duck..except on this board..then if it looks/sounds like a duck..must be a chicken!

Debunked and Dismissed are two different things.

I've seen more dismissal that Debunking, and much of the debunking doesnt really hold up. After all, if it was so "easily" debunked, the Times wouldnt still be making cheap shot attacks, and theyd just come out with real evidence against. People wouldnt be dropping out of head on debates o nthe subject. People wouldnt be sideskirting issues on the mass media when in a discussion on national television.

But there's a big problem with Loose Change and with most other conspiracy theories. The more you think about them, the more you realize how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses. (For what it's worth, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has published a fact sheet responding to some of the conspiracy theorists' ideas on its website, www.nist.gov. The theories prompt small, reasonable questions that demand answers that are just too large and unreasonable to swallow. Granted, the Pentagon crash site looks odd in photographs. But if the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, then what happened to American Airlines Flight 77? Where did all the real, documented people on it go? Assassinated? Relocated? What about eyewitnesses who saw a plane, not a missile? And what are the chances that an operation of such size--it would surely have involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel--could be carried out without a single leak? Without leaving behind a single piece of evidence hard enough to stand up to scrutiny in a court? People, the feds just aren't that slick. Nobody is.

www.time.com...

Really, you have to be an eight year old to believe that such a grand conspiracy could be pulled off and ALL of the potentially hundreds of people involved would remain silent.

Two men can keep a secret when on of them is dead
Mark Twain

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Beat me to it 12m8keall2c....I was going to warn this person that one line posts are discuraged here.

Knowitall.....can you back up your statements with facts? I'm a structural engineer. I don't believe the official version of how the trade center buildings fell. Does this mean I too am living in some kind of second world apart from yours? I guess I do because I try and back things up when I state them as fact. You should try it sometime.

[edit on 9/6/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Number 23 you are absolutely correct! The CTers are the same folks that want to complain about the government being inept and stupid, but at the same time, accuse the same government of pulling this extrodinarily complicated scheme off, and despite the 1000's of people involved, keep it a secret for 5 years! It just doesn't pass muster.

Originally posted by Number23

Really, you have to be an eight year old to believe that such a grand conspiracy could be pulled off and ALL of the potentially hundreds of people involved would remain silent.

Two men can keep a secret when on of them is dead
Mark Twain

Bolded by me. That's the correct word there...potentially. Who knows how many people could have pulled it off?....you? Can you also back up your statements with some facts. Try and give us a scenario where it would take hundreds of people to pull this off.

I do agree though that if ALL the conspiracy theories are true, that it would take hundreds of people but if only a few are true...then it wouldn't.

As far as people remaining silent....Bush has stated twice he saw the first plane hit tower 1, Rumsfeld talks about the missle that hit the pentagon and flight 93 being shot down, Silverstein says he ordered Building 7 to be "pulled"....the list goes on. People are talking....just average dumb american isn't listening.

Originally posted by KnowItAll
The CTers are the same folks that want to complain about the government being inept and stupid, but at the same time, accuse the same government of pulling this extrodinarily complicated scheme off

There's a huge difference between beurocratic red tape and the military industrial complex.

, and despite the 1000's of people involved, keep it a secret for 5 years! It just doesn't pass muster.

So, now we're up to thousands of people when it was only hundreds two posts ago?

Sorry for the one-liner.....
Griff, I too am a PE (stuctural). I don't buy the CTer's that the WT had to be brought down by explosives. As you know....it all depends on how you want to look at evidence. Again, there are too many people that would have to be involved with a plot this huge. As you also know, you can't look at "evidence" in a vacuum. While we're both engineers, we ARE NOT forensic engineers. There is a difference.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by KnowItAll
The CTers are the same folks that want to complain about the government being inept and stupid, but at the same time, accuse the same government of pulling this extrodinarily complicated scheme off

There's a huge difference between beurocratic red tape and the military industrial complex.

, and despite the 1000's of people involved, keep it a secret for 5 years! It just doesn't pass muster.

So, now we're up to thousands of people when it was only hundreds two posts ago?

OK Griff, don't get caught up in the hyperboly.....you full well understand the point that's trying to be made.