Lee H. Oswald Killed Kennedy.

BartIV,

I have only one quibble with you. Why do you think that the third bullet is suspect? That was actually Oswald's easiest shot of the three.

Google for the Nix film. (You can see via in the Zapruder film if you watch the background lawn, but the Nix film is best.) Kennedy's car actually came to a virtual dead stop before the third shot was fired. He was not a moving target at that moment.

There's an .avi version here:
www.jfk-online.com...

As for the whole "back and to the left" thing: Crikey. A bullet is ae-ro-dy-nam-ic. It isn't going to PUSH you anywhere. Kennedy's head snapped back because his right cranium EXPLODED, bursting grey matter, bone and blood all over the place. The bullet came from behind and the frontward explosion send his head backward with an equal and opposite force.

Either that or someone simultaneously hit him with a bullet the size of a baseball from down inside a sewer drain.


[edit on 31-8-2006 by Tuning Spork]

posted by Tuning Spork
BartIV,

The bullet came from behind and the frontward explosion send his head backward with an equal and opposite force.

Either that or someone simultaneously hit him with a bullet the size of a baseball from down inside a sewer drain. [Edited by Don W]

Your excellent argument is in good company. It is found in the Warren Commission Report. It makes good reading. I recommend it.

Originally posted by johnlear
President John F. Kennedy was shot and killed by Corsican sharpshooters aided and abetted by the Mossad and several CIA operatives under the direct command of James Jesus Angleton, CIA, Head of Counterintelligence Staff). The operation was ordered by Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion in his fury at JFK's insistance at inspecting Dimona in June of 1963 shortly before his resignation as PM. Angleton was a mole in the CIA for both Russia and Israel. These facts and the evidence to support them are in the book "Final Judgment" written by Michael Collins Piper, 6th Edition, Library of Congress Control Number 2003096643. Whether or not you agree with Piper, whether or not you consider him an anti-semite (whatever that means) and whether or not you consider him a holocaust denier (whatever that is), you cannot consider yourself well informed on the subject of JFK's assassination until you have read his book.

I concur. I will have to read that book though. Excellent post.

Originally posted by wondernut
apparantly you have never heard of the "magic bullet"
they only found one bullet

note that the bullet passes though his middle back, up though his neck, and down again through connally's back, out his chest, through his arm changing trajectory, and ends up in his left thigh

still believe oswald did it?

[edit on 31-8-2006 by wondernut]

Look at the drawing of Kennedy on the bullet path. It has Kennedy's arm on his side. I reality his arm was sitting on the side of the car. His arm was higher up than his torso causing his back to raise. The drawning does not do the shooting justice. Do you agree?
Also, in reality Governor Connelly was lower in the seat than Kennedy and to his right towards his wife. The drawing is a poor example of evidence of the magic bullet.

[edit on 31-8-2006 by BartIV]

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
BartIV,

I have only one quibble with you. Why do you think that the third bullet is suspect? That was actually Oswald's easiest shot of the three.

Google for the Nix film. (You can see via in the Zapruder film if you watch the background lawn, but the Nix film is best.) Kennedy's car actually came to a virtual dead stop before the third shot was fired. He was not a moving target at that moment.

There's an .avi version here:
www.jfk-online.com...

As for the whole "back and to the left" thing: Crikey.

A bullet is ae-ro-dy-nam-ic. It isn't going to PUSH you anywhere. Kennedy's head snapped back because his right cranium EXPLODED, bursting grey matter, bone and blood all over the place. The bullet came from behind and the frontward explosion send his head backward with an equal and opposite force.

Either that or someone simultaneously hit him with a bullet the size of a baseball from down inside a sewer drain.

[edit on 31-8-2006 by Tuning Spork]

I agree, its just hard to understand the back and to the left. You never know what a bullet will do to a person. Had the bullet hit him directly in the back of the head it probably would have gone forward, but it was on his far right side sending his head to the left.

Do you see why us religious skeptics are just that, skeptical? There were 10,000 people in Dealey Plaza that day, and there was at least one film made of the tragedy, but to this day, no one can agree what really did happen. You can see why, I hope, I have to take Jericho’s walls, the Red Sea dividing, walking on water, and yes, the crucifixion and resurrection all with a very large grain of salt.

Supposedly all of us speak the same language. How much more doubt there is when the principals spoke in Aramaic or Hebrew, and reduced the events to writing some 30 years or longer after the events, in Greek, then had that translated into Old English over 1,500 years later, and now you want to be believe every dot and tittle? Isn’t that really just too much of a reach?

Originally posted by donwhite

It is very hard to learn just what Bush41 was doing in the 1961-1963 time frame.

You may find 100 years difficult to believe but that is exactly what happened. When Bush 41 became president, he did actually extend it for even a longer period, but I don't remember how long.

It is difficult to know what Bush 41 was doing during those early years, but the truth is there. I have personally seen a CIA document signed by George Bush in summer of 1963-which proves he was working for the CIA at the time that Kennedy was shot. I believe Bush was a major player in the assasination plot. He was even then planning on being a politician, perhaps even president and he had access to all kinds of inside people since he was in the CIA and his father had been a senator. There was an excellent article in, of all places, High Times about 10 or 12 years ago. It was widely acclaimed and it was excellent investigative reporting. William Cooper also writes about it in his book, Behold a Pale Horse. There is no way the official version is right.

I have to say that in the almost half of a century since JFK's assasination, I've never heard, met or read even ONE person that believed the official story until seeing this thread, started by the original poster, who doesn't appear to have been alive when the whole thing happened. Ask anyone, where were you the day JFK was killed? All of them remember and they also remember every exact detail perfectly, it was such a hideous thing, worse than 9/11. Persons of all stripes, colors, beliefs, Dems and Repubs, all of them don't believe the official version. Also, think about this:

Every single one of the people who knew anything about the assasination, died within 2 years of the event, many of them were very suspicious deaths. The odds of that happening were astronomical. A large red flag of suspicion right there.

Originally posted by BartIVBut he did play with guns in the army, so he knew his way around with one, he was conformable with using a gun. Given that, he performed just about right, Not perfect, but lucky.

Oswald wasn't in the Army, he was in the Marine Corps. Marine Corps marksmanship training is the best in the world. Oswald was more than capable of making the shots that killed Kennedy.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Oswald wasn't in the Army, he was in the Marine Corps. Marine Corps marksmanship training is the best in the world. Oswald was more than capable of making the shots that killed Kennedy.

Possibly. But not with the rifle he had.

John Lear
Possibly. But not with the rifle he had.

John. Why do you say that?

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
Kennedy's head snapped back because his right cranium EXPLODED, bursting grey matter, bone and blood all over the place. The bullet came from behind and the frontward explosion send his head backward with an equal and opposite force.

Either that or someone simultaneously hit him with a bullet the size of a baseball from down inside a sewer drain.

Are you saying the bullet came from behind, crated a huge explosion of brain matter and then exited through the front
Sounds backwards to me. Seems like the entry wound (in front of JFK) is small and the huge, gaping hole in the back is the exit wound.

As far as LHO's actual marksman ability, I kinda sorta doubt it.
Even if his military records SAID it, my tinfoil har tells me records can be changed.
LHO was but a small part of a large conspiracy and the truth is still being kept from us.

Even the Select Committee on Presidential Assassinations used the "c" word for conspiracy.

Originally posted by johnlear

Possibly. But not with the rifle he had.

It is true that the bolt-action rifle with a scope is a considerably different than the M-1 with iron sights that Oswald was trained with, but the principles of marksmanship generalize to all small arms.

[edit on 2006/9/2 by GradyPhilpott]

posted by forestlady

I have seen a CIA document signed by George Bush in summer of 1963 - which proves he was working for the CIA at the time Kennedy was shot. There was an excellent article in ‘High Times’ about 10 or 12 years ago. It was widely acclaimed and was excellent investigative reporting. William Cooper also writes about it in his book, ‘Behold a Pale Horse.’ There is no way the official version is right.

I have to say that in the almost half of a century since JFK's assassination, I've never heard, met or read even ONE person that believed the official story until seeing this thread, started by the original poster, who doesn't appear to have been alive when the whole thing happened. Ask anyone, where were you the day JFK was killed? All of them remember and they also remember every exact detail perfectly, it was such a hideous thing, worse than 9/11. Persons of all stripes, colors, beliefs, Dems and Repubs, all of them don't believe the official version. Also, think about this: [Edited by Don W]

In regard to your remark that many people did not, and have not, accepted the official version, this same sincere doubt was also true of the Lincoln assassination report. That debate is on-going. Perhaps someday, Mark Lane or Oliver Stone or another get-rich type will endow a University of Lincoln-Kennedy Assassination Studies. Maybe located in the old Texas School Book Depository building at Dealey Plaza?

F/L, I hate like heck to be a spoiler. You can no longer say you have never met one person who believed the Warren Commission Report. Now you have. I was an EM in the USAF stationed at MacDill AFB, when on Monday, JFK and Jackie landed and whizzed pass the BX where I was eating lunch. Both of them waved back to us 20-30 GIs standing outside, 100 feet from the street, as they passed us in the open Lincoln limousine of fate. They were on their way to Lopez Field for a Dems rally. The 1964 campaign was starting early. I was a radar mechanic on F84Fs, but was in school by the Litton Industries tech rep on the new F4C the AF was about to receive.

I was just returning from lunch on that Friday, when we heard the president had been shot in Dallas over the car radio. By the time we got inside the building, we had heard that he was indeed, dead. Like any normal human, we were devastated. Being also military types, we did not know what to do. The ranking person was an E6 Tech Sgt and he did not want to take authority to dismiss the class. Finally, we had a vote and he too voted to dismiss the class. “See you Monday.” We went our separate ways.

I shared an off-base apartment with one other GI but he was out of town for the weekend. So I was alone. I did not cry, but that was more because I had forgotten how to cry. Crying takes practice. So I just had lots of wet eyes to dry. I went to downtown Tampa Sunday AM to buy out of town newspapers. As I stood in Walgreens, cheating by reading the papers without paying, the overhead tv blasted out that Oswald had been shot!

Great Scott! (My decent epithet. I actually said something else.) I went back to my empty apartment, absolutely “flat.” The APs closed the air base except to previously designated personnel of which I was not one. So I had to wait at home, alone, until Monday, to get back into what was barely a state of normalcy. But, school went on, the AF got its F4Cs and the 12th Fighter Wing was soon despatched to Vietnam. And I was HD from the AF.

Last, why do I believe the Warren Commission Report? Well, I guess I know a little how the bishops at Nicea must have felt when the Emperor Constantine told them to select books for inclusion in a bible that would be uniform across the empire. (Bible equals bibliography.) An approved reading list. Some books were accepted (believable) and some were not. (Unbelievable.)

The Commission was made up of its chairman, Chief Justice Earl Warren of California. He had been on the bench 10 years, and had handed down the key cases in modern Americana - Brown v. Topeka Board of Education. The Miranda case. The Wainwright case. And so many other cases that finally gave life to a moribund Supreme Court. And a good life it was.

Two senators, Richard Russell of Georgia, known as the Dean of the Senate. John Sherman Cooper, of Kentucky. I knew of him, as he was my senator. He won in Kentucy 2 times in part because he was an honest man. In politics in Kentucky, that is not a common commodity.

Two House members. Hale Boggs of Louisiana. A leading Democrat. I know you cannot say “honest” and name a Louisiana politician in the same sentence. That would be an oxymoron. But Congressman Boggs was never caught doing wrong. Louisianans liked him. He died in a plane crash in Alaska I think.

Gerald Ford, of Michigan. A man with a personality it was hard if not impossible to dislike. And never accused of wrong-doing. And, well enough regarded to become the only man to be president of the United States never to stand for election to the office. Ex-President Ford is alive and doing well for his age.

Allen W. Dulles. A man I have disliked all my adult life. He was the brother of John Foster Dulles on whose shoulders I lay blame for everything bad that happened abroad before JFK’s election. Between John and Allen, America was mired deep into a Cold War that need not have happened. Allen was the Director of the CIA under Eisenhower and played a large role in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. But for all I disagreed with him about, he was never accused of dishonesty and he was tough minded on those issues that he deemed important. So, begrudgingly, I’d take his word of the Report.

John J. McCloy, former US High Commissioner to Germany afer War 2, and later president of the World Bank. I don’t know much about him except he was a Washington establishment insider.

I will not accept the claim - if it was ever made - that these 7 men joined a cabal or a conspiracy to falsify the Report. The staff of the WC was made up of about 20 men and women, almost all of whom were Phi Beta Kappa or Order of the Coif, the law school’s equivalent. Some of them held both designations of academic achievement. Senator Arlen Specter was one of the Staff. Everyone knows his reputation. The 19 or so Investigators were equally competent and likewise possessed impeccable credentials . The names of all those people are available on the www.

My final point. If those 45 odd people all lied, then there is no hope. I think they did not lie. They did their job, they made the report. The Commissioners reviewed the Report and unanimously accepted it. In a great country, there can be no better review of an unpleasant incident. The Warren Commission Report will live long after the critics have all died. That’s my option.

I don’t mean to be harsh but I get mad when I look at the list of the above and then look at the critics. It’s giants versus midgets. That makes me mad.


[edit on 9/2/2006 by donwhite]

Mrs. Nellie Connally, wife of the former governor of Texas, died today at 87. She was the last person living who had been in the presidential limousine on that fateful day in Dallas.

[edit on 3-9-2006 by maynardsthirdeye2]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by johnlear

Possibly. But not with the rifle he had.

It is true that the bolt-action rifle with a scope is a considerably different than the M-1 with iron sights that Oswald was trained with, but the principles of marksmanship generalize to all small arms.

[edit on 2006/9/2 by GradyPhilpott]

The rifle that Lee Oswald has was the cheapest available or just a cheap rifle, is that correct? The rifle is right in that Oswald was no wealthy by any means and could only afford something like this. That is the reason Oswald probably used such a rifle. It was the cheapest in the catalog.

For the record, I think it is amazing that so many feel the LHO did the killing
So, I went to some old ATS threads and came up with this list of well-written essays on the JFK murder:

Kennedy Assassination: Coup d' Etat
1 Kennedy: The Assassination
2 Kennedy: The Single Bullet Theory
3 Kennedy: The Head Shot
4 Kennedy: The Autopsy Photos and X-Rays
5 Kennedy: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald
6 Kennedy: Alteration in Zapruder's Film


Far more convincing than anything I could add to this discussion.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
Kennedy's head snapped back because his right cranium EXPLODED, bursting grey matter, bone and blood all over the place. The bullet came from behind and the frontward explosion send his head backward with an equal and opposite force.

Either that or someone simultaneously hit him with a bullet the size of a baseball from down inside a sewer drain.

Are you saying the bullet came from behind, crated a huge explosion of brain matter and then exited through the front

Sounds backwards to me. Seems like the entry wound (in front of JFK) is small and the huge, gaping hole in the back is the exit wound.

DTOM,
Yes, the entry wound was at the back and the exit wound was the large wound created by the explosion.

Lay your right palm over your right ear and then press your right index finger on your head. This is the approximate point where the bullet entered.

Now place the rest of your fingers on your skull and feel for the seam where the bone plates had fused when you were just an infant. This is where the energy of the bullet released itself.

We tend to think of the human brain as a light, soft, spongey thing. But, in fact, it is a dense organ. It's not much bigger than your fist, yet it weighs about three pounds. The impact of the bullet -- with it's kinetic energy of a 6.5mm round (larger than the 6.25 NATO round used in the M-16 rifle) times it's 2200 feet per second velocity -- carried a lot of energy that needed to go somewhere. The least path of resistance was to the right and forward. The President's head was then propelled to the left and backward.

Kinda like a rocket, but not quite "rocket science".

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Oswald wasn't in the Army, he was in the Marine Corps. Marine Corps marksmanship training is the best in the world. Oswald was more than capable of making the shots that killed Kennedy.

Possibly. But not with the rifle he had.

John, why not?

I've used aluminum tubing as blowguns, using nothing but nails with paper cones fastened with Scotch tape as projectiles, and hit bulls-eyes the size of a baseball at 15 yards. Why couldn't a "cheap" Italian rifle, using heavy rounds and with a scope, hit a target the size of a basketball at 120 yards?


[edit on 3-9-2006 by Tuning Spork]

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
The impact of the bullet -- with it's kinetic energy of a 6.5mm round (larger than the 6.25 NATO round used in the M-16 rifle) times it's 2200 feet per second velocity -- carried a lot of energy that needed to go somewhere. The least path of resistance was to the right and forward.

The M-16 fires a 5.56mm (.223) round.

www.army.mil...