UK falling apart!

I don't know what it's like in USA though, do any Americans experience these sorts of problems? (and these aren't just one-offs, this happens all the time)

problems with crime? of course we do. The US surpasses the rest of the world in crime enormously...Britain isn't called a sister country to the US for nothing. We are very very similar, in culture, in everything.

I know you have crimes as in burglaries, shootings, etc. But these crimes happen for reasons - the criminal needs money or doesn't like someone so they attack them, they are justified from the criminals POV.

In Britain it seems fashionable for 14 year olds to go around beating people up just for fun. It's not uncommon to be held up with a knife just for looking at a group of kids. I always thought these pointless anti-social acts were a British thing?

And the police constantly say that there's nothing they can do about it, then in the end someone gets killed and thats when people open their eyes!

There was a good example of this the other day where a young father received abuse from a group of 14 year old kids over a long period of time, they verbally and physically abused him and stabbed him. He went to the police and they said there was nothing they could do even though they knew who it was. A few months later the guy gets shot on his own doorstep by these kids!

news.bbc.co.uk...

I don't think this sort of thing was happening 100 years ago...

Edit: Add link

[edit on 31/8/2006 by malganis]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Or, in this case and lately - immigration = Muslims.

Truely laughable.

Thankfully and rather amusingly it is that kind of attitude that is the minority in Britain today.

You think? If you take away the immigrants vote and see what the average Joe wants, I will wager that they would stop immigration tomorrow and if it was possible, kick the muslims out! Of course you could say I have a blinkered, and racist view. Whereas I would reply that I am certainly not blinkered as I can see what is happening to the UK and it seems you cannot. And as for racist, well I now live in Canada and I work with Chinese, Indian, Phillipino, English, Scottish and Croatian workmates. And I am good friends with them all!

And may I say that I am glad I am out of the UK coz as far as I can see, even though its the best place on Earth, its still a ticking bomb!

tick......tock.....tick.........tock...

there are some people on here ready to sign their own death certificates.

someone compared 9/11 to the killing of lebanese civilians. this person did not think before speaking.

since when did al quaida drop leaftets from the sky warning us to stay out of the twin towers on sept 11? since when did these bastards give us 24 or 48 hrs to get out of harm's way?

there are people on here who will never ever support israel's right to defend itself. they advocate that israel should do nothing in retaliation when attacked, and also do nothing to prevent attacks - like build a wall. at the same time they offer no solution to defending israel either, thereby impliedly conceding to the islamic world's demand that israelis quit the land now, alltogether, or face annihilation. or else that the UN should protect israel. oh yeh, kofi anan has a great track record in that deptartment (remember rwanda!)

as for the so-called businesman (supra) - sure you want more immigrants. you sure don't want to pay your fellow brits much more above minimum wage do you, thereby increasing your profits. you care not one wit for the working man or woman. as long as you make enough profit to keep yourself comfortable, you like the rest of your globalist corporate elitist buddies couldn't give a sh1t that population density is increasing as a result of rapid immigration thereby lowering average joe's standard of living, increasing the demand for housing, putting most people out of the housing market, and forcing them like minions into cramped tiny rented one bed flats.

i've seen what so-called businessmen have done to my own town of bournemouth (i live in the US now thank god). they've converted street upon street of beautiful turn of the century single family dwellings into multiple bedsits and filled them with
their immigrant workers like some 1920's brooklyn slum.

i think that this is not a UK problem only...!, for me it is the world as a modern society that it is falling apart.

Originally posted by Nerdling
I think the greatest problem we face is racism and its little brother xenophobia.

More should be done to integrate immigrants into British culture. We should have state sponsored Islamic schools that teach a curriculum that they find acceptable in a manner which is acceptable to us.

Do I hear violins playing in the background??

What if they don't want to integrate and many are making the case that they are only there for economic reasons? You gonna force them to integrate?

Muslims are not to blame for any of the problems, its the NWO who are stiring it up, they create the things they want out of the chaos.
Race does NOT enter this debate at ALL, thats what they expect to happen. to see whats really going on issues such as a persons race has to be ignored, because we are all human beings, but the NWO are not.

My husband's views would be best expressed here. He is 53 and is more aware of the changes here in the UK.

I lived abroad for a while; so I haven't been able to really see how the changes have affected the UK. I came back home in '89; and being disabled and housebound, I can't really notice the changes like my husband can, as he is a bit more mobile.

He is concerned about the future generations here in the UK, and just from what I have been seeing in the news relating to youngsters and asbos that in itself is a concern; especially when the Prime Minister is talking about targeting them when they are younger. I don't fully understand his policy, but apparently Miss England, who is a Muslim is apalled. If she feels that strongly, then there must be a reason that she is unhappy about it. She represents England in the Miss Universe pageant, so she probably feels the youngsters are being prejudiced against. If that is the case, then I agree.

My husband is concerned with Tony Blair staying in office, as he is moving the UK (in his views) into a grey area, and seems to want to maintain power for powers sake. 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'-that is the best way to sum up my husband's views on Tony Blair. I neither agree, or disagree; except in areas where Tony Blair seems to be pushing the system to a point of no return. Those of us, who are on the poverty line are looking at living below poverty level with the high cost of living, which we can ill afford.

In relation to those of us living at poverty level-Blair's policies aren't helping us at all. The NHS is being torn apart and all that is good about Britain is being stripped away by commerce and construction on green belts.

I don't blame legal immigrants for the crisis; although the illegal immigrants are putting a strain on the system, because they are not contributing and are using up available resources. I have nothing against immigration, as my family comes from a long line of immigration due to religious persecution which dates back several hundered years. It would be far better if the immigrants were legalised then we could account for the extra resources and those of us on the poverty line wouldn't have to make up the difference.

Originally posted by Mcphisto
You think?

- Yes.
The voting figures back my view, not yours.

If you take away the immigrants vote and see what the average Joe wants

- If you were correct there would have been an unbroken line of tory or (depending on what version of the re-branding alphabet soup was currently 'in' and fashionable) BNP/tory coalition governments since the year dot.

"Immigrants" are and always have been a small minority in the UK.

By the way, which immigrants?
You do know humanity did not spring up in England, right?
You do realise we are all immigrants if you go back far enough, hmmmm?

But presuming you mean the recent wave(s) of immigration, do you know how many "immigrants" there are in the UK?
Which wave(s) do you count or not count ....and why?

What about the children of immigrants born here, hmmmmm?

......cos when you say "immigrant" why don't you just admit you don't really mean just "immigrant"?
You must mean the brown British-born people from an immigrant background.
That is the only way that absurd claim even begins to come remotely close to standing up.
(and even then the British-born children from 20th century immigrants are not anywhere near close to a majority in the UK)

I will wager that they would stop immigration tomorrow and if it was possible, kick the muslims out!

- Of course you would.
Hide behind the term "Muslim" all you like but that is just the latest tactic.

....and in any event those scary "Muslims" you guys currently love to 'play up' do not constitute anything close to the bulk of recent British immigration.

But you aren't kidding anyone (who knows the slightest thing about the history of their own country and the ludicrous 'village idiot;' element that has been and still is the ignorant neo-fascist/nationalist rump within it).

Repatriation has been a standard (tho now unfashionable and often kept quiet) mantra from the neo-fascist/nationalist types for decades.

......and not a word about British Muslims tho, eh?
How about the 'white Muslims'?
Or the converts to Islam from the so-called 'native' British population?

But nevermind (and avoid) all that difficult & complicated stuff, huh?
Keep it simple, eh?

Of course you could say I have a blinkered, and racist view.

- Actually I didn't say anything about you, but interesting that you're the one talking "racist" about yourself.

You are clearly sectarian in your outlook and if you're happy to start taking such triffling matters as rights & votes away from your fellow British citizens on the arbitrary basis of an undefined and general term "immigrant" then racist is a almost certainly a cap that obviously fits too.
Several other terms spring to mind too.

- and "Blinkered"?
Well, you are afterall the one making ridiculous claims that "immigrants" are so numerous as to be able to 'out-vote' the average British Joe.

Whereas I would reply that I am certainly not blinkered as I can see what is happening to the UK and it seems you cannot.

- There have always been a 'rump' of malcontents desperate to broadcast there English/British racist/nationalist wet dream.

There hasn't been a decade yet post-war when the neo-fascist/nationalist minority hasn't claimed the sky was about to fall in at any moment due to 'too much immigration' or that 'British/English culture' was under 'threat' from someone.

Laughably this kind of 'message' used to be far more 'English-centric' and class-based.
It used to 'target' those in the English lower classes and the other 'nations' within the British Isles at one time (if you go pre-20th century).
Same (real) control-freakery, manipulation, condescention, arrogance, fear, ignorant, superiority-complex and out of control garbage; different century.

......but then you'd have to actually know something about what is supposed to be your own country (that you care so much about etc etc blah blah blah) and it's history to know about that kind of stuff.
Usually (and rather amusingly) those taking this kind of extremist view and that claim such 'love' of their country often turn out to know so little about it.


But I guess claims of a 'threat' from too many working class English, (any) Scot, (any) Welsh or (amy) Irish people would just be howled out of earshot with derisive laughter.

In the future the same will be true of this infantile garbage about the current 'threat' from 'too many foreigners', the so-called 'Euro-threat' has gone the same way for most.

Meanwhile the rest of us (ie the majority as election after election proves) have been steadfastly ignoring and/or laughing at this contemptible, so obviously attempting to be manipulative and plain nasty 'view' for decades.

The far right hold no great attraction for the British.

.....in fact 'The Greens' out-polled them 2:1 in the recent elections - so how come your Nostradamus senses aren't predicting a 'Green' future, that'd be much more likely based on the facts.

And as for racist, well I now live in Canada and I work with Chinese, Indian, Phillipino, English, Scottish and Croatian workmates. And I am good friends with them all!

- How lovely for them.

And may I say that I am glad I am out of the UK coz as far as I can see, even though its the best place on Earth, its still a ticking bomb!

tick......tock.....tick.........tock...

- .......and another year goes by and the ticking in your head continues.

Your problem, it's not any kind of fact, proof or insight.


[edit on 1-9-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by jackvance88
there are some people on here ready to sign their own death certificates.

someone compared 9/11 to the killing of lebanese civilians. this person did not think before speaking.

since when did al quaida drop leaftets from the sky warning us to stay out of the
as for the so-called businesman (supra) - sure you want more immigrants. you sure don't want to pay your fellow brits much more above minimum wage do you, thereby increasing your profits. you care not one wit for the working man or woman. as long as you make enough profit to keep yourself comfortable, you like the rest of your globalist corporate elitist buddies couldn't give a sh1t that population density is increasing as a result of rapid immigration thereby lowering average joe's standard of living, increasing the demand for housing, putting most people out of the housing market, and forcing them like minions into cramped tiny rented one bed flats.

i've seen what so-called businessmen have done to my own town of bournemouth (i live in the US now thank god). they've converted street upon street of beautiful turn of the century single family dwellings into multiple bedsits and filled them with
their immigrant workers like some 1920's brooklyn slum.

Actually I pay way more than minimum wage. My workers also make a great deal in tips.
I own a small business - a cafe with 23 covers which is very successful because I have quality staff and produce quality food. And I work hard. I do care for the working man as I am one !
I certainly can't be compared to the businessmen in bournemouth that you dislike so much.

Don't think that all businessmen are all greedy, some of us care and want to provide enjoyable working environments - this is the best way to ensure a successful business.

You seem to be unable to think straight beacuse you are so angry - which is easy to have sympathy with, but we cannot act just on emotion.

I agree that Terrorist don't give any warning and I certainly don't have much sympathy with them. I just don't think that carpet bombing residential areas is a particularly constructive process. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself but there must be a better way.

I see your location says Dublin yet your tag is Celtic FC, why???

Its Because Im Half scottish half Irish And i support Celtic in the spl

I think the best way to answer this question is to ask those members actually living in the UK if they think it is falling apart.

Based on the number of earlier responses agreeing that it is, I'm afraid that the answer seems clear - people are just not happy there. So then we need to ask "Why ?".

It seems that immigration is a huge issue, probably the biggest single thing that our British members have concerns about. I have variously seen comments about Leeds/Bradford being turned into a New Delhi slum, and parts of London being taken over by Jamaican gangs.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but the bottom line seems to be that people over there are just not happy with their lives because of the state of the nation. If that's true, then it's time you threw out the current administration and made a radical change of course.

Originally posted by Retseh
I think the best way to answer this question is to ask those members actually living in the UK if they think it is falling apart.

Based on the number of earlier responses agreeing that it is, I'm afraid that the answer seems clear - people are just not happy there. So then we need to ask "Why ?".

It seems that immigration is a huge issue, probably the biggest single thing that our British members have concerns about. I have variously seen comments about Leeds/Bradford being turned into a New Delhi slum, and parts of London being taken over by Jamaican gangs.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but the bottom line seems to be that people over there are just not happy with their lives because of the state of the nation. If that's true, then it's time you threw out the current administration and made a radical change of course.

just a few years more. labour has definitely run its course. then we'll have the 'new' tories for about another decade, everything will go to pot again, and then back to labour.....

Originally posted by Retseh
I think the best way to answer this question is to ask those members actually living in the UK if they think it is falling apart.

- Do you imagine that that would be somehow representitive!?

Based on the number of earlier responses agreeing that it is, I'm afraid that the answer seems clear - people are just not happy there.

- Britain may not be a 'land of milk and honey' for all, of course not, but this depiction of it as about to boil over in any serious and major way is laughable.

For serious discontent I'd point you to the inner city riots of the early 1980's.

The, comparatively speaking, handful of minor scuffles in a few small northern towns does not even begin to compare.

So, no.
Sorry to burst the neo-racist/nationalists' permanent wet-dreaming on this but Britain is not actually falling apart.

So then we need to ask "Why ?".

- Perhaps a more productive answer would come from asking 'who' more than why?
Who are these people who insist on seeing the sky falling in at every turn whilst every objective measure of wealth and security continue to rise?
(and like I said it may not be perfection but those are the same stats for everybody and they do show incomes for most rising year on year)

Perhaps the attitudes are actually more reflective of the adolescent mind-set behind them because it is pretty obvious that in many of the cases we are regularly treated to on these boards they appear to know little about even the most fairly recent comparative British history.

Like I said weigh up these over-blown claims against some of the real and actual unrest in the UK during the last 25+yrs and it is frankly laughable.

(but given the repeated and typical 'slant' - re immigration - it's doesn't exactly take a Sherlock Holmes to work out the almost inevitable 'rationale' behind it.)

It seems that immigration is a huge issue, probably the biggest single thing that our British members have concerns about.

- Yeah, precisely.
Some of the British members come on here to talk of little else.

What a pity for them that that is wholly unrepresentative of the country though, eh?

British people may express a general 'concern' over 'immigration' (which usually extends to concerns over fairness in paying for and receiving state help) but to twist this to try and claim it is the same as the 'stop it all' or the 'send 'em all back' far-right nutters is false and delusional.

It also is quite laughable when it is set against the reality of the current wave of immigration the bulk of which is made up of people from central and eastern Europe coming to the UK to work (ie contribute).
The current immigrant are paying their way (but of course that just gets ignored and passed quickly along with the truth that they aren't entitled to access the non-working state benefits system anyway)

I have variously seen comments about Leeds/Bradford being turned into a New Delhi slum, and parts of London being taken over by Jamaican gangs.

-
Yeah, cos all of Bradford and all of Leeds were real 'jewels in the crown' before any immigrants arrived there, eh?
That's the kind of sweeping generalisation that really requires people to have little or no clue about the reality of those places.

Leeds is by no means a perfect city (but it is a city, like any other with good and bad places) just as Bradford is a middle sized town with good and bad areas.
Both, being northern English towns suffered mightily during the recessions of the early 1980's and early 1990's along with the especially hard knock they took when the coal mining industry shrank so markedly.
They both have a long history of deprivation and large depressed/slum areas for several decades.

......and you will also find similar exaggerated doom and gloom being spread any time the race issue rears it's ugly head.

When it was large numbers of poor or dispossessed Jewish people fleeing central and eastern Europe at the turn of the last century they said exactly the same thing about the east-end of London and any of the other (already) poor slum areas where immigrants inevitably end up initially.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but the bottom line seems to be that people over there are just not happy with their lives because of the state of the nation.

- You are wrong.

Like I said it may not be perfection for most but the idea that Britain is a seething malcontent nation on the verge of 'exploding' over the race issue is frankly ludicrously absurd.

.....no matter how many people pop up here periodically to attempt to 'sell' such garbage.

If that's true

- Don't worry, it isn't.

then it's time you threw out the current administration and made a radical change of course.

- You seem to have missed the fact that we have just had local elections in may 2006 and before that in may 2005 a national general election.

In not one of those elections did 'race' turn out to be the central issue.
Nor for that matter was there the slightest sign of this supposed great 'well' of discontent some insist is out there helping the neo-fascist/nationalist party 'break-through'.
Did not happen, just like it has never happened.

.....and anyone who knows the slightest history of the British far-right would know that they have been far bigger in the past and much more of a nuisance.
They love to exaggerate their importance but the comparison is ridiculous.
When the NF marched in the 1970's people were worried because they appeared to have something disturbingly close to mass support, the BNP now are a gnat compared.
Just as when the far-right could call out workers in their thousands to support that idiot Powell, the comparison with todays BNP is laughable.

Like I said, if you actually know much about the political history of this country these risible claims are just that, risible nonsense.

For all this urgent hot air some seem determined to expend on claiming a revolution at any moment the British are proving to be remarkably calm and resilient in refusing to elect the far-right to control even one small town council nevermind any actual and real 'power' in our central government.

I'd suggest you stop giving such credence to those silly and grossly exaggerated scare stories, eh?

is the UK falling apart ?

what udder tosh

some people need to cast thier minds back , sans rose colouredspecs and / or read some history

speaking from personal experience / reccolection this" stuck record " has been playing so long its no longer funny

premenitions of doom that loom large in my reccollections are :

Y2K : do not s'n-word' - we had doomsayers a plenty claiming the end was nigh

the poll tax debarcle , again we had riots -- the aptly named poll tax riots -- and calls for the overthrow of the government .

the miners strike [ 1984 ] - again contingency plans for the use of troops were made

the riots of 1981 - toxteth , brixton , woolich , moss side . etc etc cilil unrest spread across the country - there was even a riot in keswick

plans were afoot to deploy troops to " ensure the continuance of government and restore order "

listen to or read a transcript of Enoch Powell`s " rivers of blood " speech from the same time

before that the winter of discontent , the 3 day week -the fire brigades strike [ 1977 ]

the government fell [ edward heath was forced to resign in 1975 ] - and there was a REAL suggestion of susspending parliament and imposing a state of emergence

that sirs was a national crisis .

people may point at " ismamist terrorist threats " , but we had 3 decades of the IRA , and prevailed - there were multiple MAJOR bombing campaigns on the mainland - the birmingham pub bombs , harrods , the grand hotel brighton , etc etc etc


as for immigration and social policy -- its been said a thousan times before and every conceivable group has been blamed

in 1965 to 1975 [ my memory ] it was " pakki bus drivers taking all the jobs from honest folk "

of course i never did understand at the time how a pakistani bus driver " took jobs " from the then declining steel and ship building industries .

and to be honest --- still dont

and before that west indians , the irish etc etc etc

so ladies and gentlemen -- please look back OBJECTIVLEY - we have endured far worse , and survived

and turn of that stupid stuck record

Originally posted by dj howls

Originally posted by Mcphisto
[
#ing hiporcrites! The english are nothing but immigrants too! Or do you really believe you own BS and think that england as always been there? That the english made Stonehenge and Briton was just a country full of cavemen till you invaders came along? Learn some history before you spout off about immigrants wanting to kill the locals will you! Its what england is made from!

hehehehe its amazing how little the English know/admit to their own saxon germanic/norman french heritage......lest we forget the german queen Lizzie 2 saxcoberggother-meiten (or whatever her real name is) "Windsor" indeed

Not that this is a bad thing (heritage/immigration) populations have always migrated. Just dont hold yourselves up as the epitome of a pure british bloodline in the face of all these horrid immigrants

Things change. adapt or die.

Yes, it is funny how little people know. When the romans came, they just "Romanised" the original occupants. When they left, the Angles, Saxons et al came over, but not in the huge waves you seem to think. They came over in small armies and merely filled the power vacuum left by the Romans. As it stands today, all previous "waves" of immigration, like the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans, Jews, the Huginots, whatever, all were assimilated into society and made it greater than its constituent parts. what we are seeing now is uncrontrolled migration LARGER than that seen at any other time of History of people who seek to surplant the native culture instead of assimilating into it.

Thats is the problem. Not immigration itself, rather the intergration of those communities.

It isn't the whole problem with the UK, but it doesn't help. ever wonder why at a time of record investment in the NHS and schools why they are still short of money? 600,000 in 18 months will put a great strain on finite resources.

We also have a terrible problem with Anti-Social behaviour on our streets mainly by inner-city youths. ever looked at the ethnic make up of inner city populations? Not that I am saying that all the little buggers are black or asian, for many are white, but even they try and "be Black" as if it is a reason to be a violent little turd.

Why is there so much anger in todays youth? Why do they feel the need to identify themselves deliberately as deliquents and and fight the system?

There just isn't enough to go round, yet they wont shut the door. Got to stack em high and sell em cheap, I suppose.

For the record, I'm not a Daily Mail reader. I hate the paper with a passion due to it's alarmist rhetoric. However, I do see alot of what I complain about with my own to eyes from my own Living room window. I know of what I speak, for I have seen it and I see it every day of my life.

The countries whom we included in the British Empire, now they rule themselves and have taken three steps back in terms of development, and each day more and more move to the UK, makes you wonder why!!!!!

Yea those 13 colonies in the US sure haven't developed any since they broke away from the empire..


[edit on 2-9-2006 by Heckman]

One of you hit the nail on the head, its not about immigration anymore, its about integration...........Im in Encino California.........A suburb or Los Angeles Ca and just 10 years ago I would say the population was pretty well even and belive it or not for the most part we all got along. The jews and the blacks and asian and hispanic.

Now the entire San Fernando Valley is called Little Mexico, roughly 2.5 million people live in the valley alone. East LA has always been Hispanic but now there are parts of it that are basically warzones........on the local news its not uncommon to have multiple shootsings, killings rapings and generally bad news.......Im actually pretty numb to it.

Everybody I know as left......My family has all left.......I would leave but my job pays well.......all the white's AND Black are leaving for central cali, or arizona....

The problem is they do not want to integrate.......AT ALL. Now our new mayer was once part of aztecha first thing he did was pass a law allowing pure hispanic advertisements and political boards spewing "Mexican" political agendas. Yes you read that correctlly, we are informed on Mexican politics in a US city. they are BIG billboards all over LA county in spanish.

No they do not want integration, they want to usurp the powerbase. And they basically have in less then a decade. Outside of the Hollywood and Malibu bubbles LA is a mexican city and will continue to pull away from america.

So as a reader of this long thread I concur with many of you about your heritage being undermined. Its very frustrating to say the least. At least here we can move to a different part of the country. What I think is even funnier is that my wife is of english heritage (her great grandparents came to the us) she is from the midwest (iowa). Its still very quaint back in the midwest, very English and small town (for lack of a better word).

Its also funny how in our country all our cultures and races from europe integrated and mingled freely and even asians and blacks to certian extent.....but hispanics and persians and jews are very adament about not integrating at ALL.

The bottom line is that muslums all over the world are immegrating to the western countries and basically turning the neigborhoods one by one into what they would call "home" as this escalates entire cities are engulfed.

Sure there will always be some that champion immigration of native heritage, but they are usually profiting from it in some way or think that a "progressive" stance will work out in the wash. That is ignorant. Just do some googling on Los Angeles. In the 1960 and 70's the valley was what all modern cities in the US aspired to........now its a #/hole. Its a social model to look forward to when a massive amount of people come to leech off the system and refuse to even try to integrate.......


[edit on 2-9-2006 by zeroG]

hey I forgot to ask.........what is asbos? or something like they you keep talking about kids using?

ASBO= Anti Social Behaviour Order

it's a kind of order/warning given to people (mainly youths) who commit crimes of a anti social nature e.g beating people up, harrassing people, etc. I think they're issued instead of jail sentences and fines or something.

Trouble is the courts issue them all the time, but it's normally too late by then and the offender has caused damage beyond repair. And when one is issued to someone they often take no notice of it and go about their usual level of anti-social behaviour, just trying not to get caught.

If they re-offend they face bigger consequences but a lot of offenders just don't care which is quite annoying.

Read this for more info, I didn't have time to research the whole thing. en.wikipedia.org...