Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

1a and 2...

You are happy to be fascist?

How did you get all that knowledge about data mining when you can't read?


and I was laughing at that "fascist" remark, cause it is absolutely the dumbest thing I have ever read.


Edit: By the way, how is someone who is watching you (that is, if you are really being watched) prohibit you from doing what you want to do? How are they controlling you?



[edit on 14/8/06 by Mouth]

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

......All they need to do is click.

We'll see about that. The government needs to perform an intense background check on me before I finish my Air Traffic Controlling qualifications. Let's see if anything comes up, cause my history is not squeaky clean... and if nothing comes up, which I am pretty sure it won't, then you'll be as credible as a nutcase off of the streets.

Originally posted by Mouth
We'll see about that. The government needs to perform an intense background check on me before I finish my Air Traffic Controlling qualifications. Let's see if anything comes up, cause my history is not squeaky clean... and if nothing comes up, which I am pretty sure it won't, then you'll be as credible as a nutcase off of the streets.

I did not say that they are currently using this for everday BS like a simple background check. Here is how it works...

1. Gather as much data as possible/Gain access to the databases of others.
2. Tie it together with unique identifiers (SSN, Acct. Numbers, Etc.)
3. Get "leagl authority" to use it.
4. Use it.

I do not think the FAA would have access to the combined capabilities. The NSA certainly does.

This technology is meant for profiling MASSIVE numbers of individuals... not simple background checks. They get those for $12 from ChoicePoint.

On that topic... why don't you go see what ChoicePoint collects and sells regarding your life.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

They know how often you screw by hoe many rubbers/birth control pills you buy.

Birth Control is taken every day, with or without intercourse. Duh.

They know your favorite beer and how much of it you drink.

So? awesome. then they can buy me a case.

They know if diabetes runs in your family.

medical records. whooop di doooo.......

They know if your family has a generally low IQ.

IQ test records? SAT scores? not unattainable information.....

They know if you are obiedient.
They know if you are not.

Clean/dirty police reports, oh no!

They know where you are, when you went and for how long.

EZ pass? I love it.

much of this info that they know is either easy to get for anyone...

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

I did not say that they are currently using this for everday BS like a simple background check. Here is how it works...

1. Gather as much data as possible/Gain access to the databases of others.
2. Tie it together with unique identifiers (SSN, Acct. Numbers, Etc.)
3. Get "leagl authority" to use it.
4. Use it.

I do not think the FAA would have access to the combined capabilities. The NSA certainly does.

This technology is meant for profiling MASSIVE numbers of individuals... not simple background checks. They get those for $12 from ChoicePoint.

If you think the Background check done for ATC is a simple $12 one, you are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by Mouth
medical records. whooop di doooo.......

It is supposed to be private. HIPPA

Originally posted by Mouth
IQ test records? SAT scores? not unattainable information.....

Again, supposed to be protected information.

Originally posted by Mouth
Clean/dirty police reports, oh no!

More like Psych. profile of all combined data... DNA, school, legal, medical, job histories...

Originally posted by Mouth
EZ pass? I love it.

RFID in your "PayPASS" Credit cards, Traffic Cams, Car GPS systems, Onstar type systems, CC transactions, flight records, Cell Phone GPS (REQUIRED in all new cell phones), ooh, yes and EZ pass... JUST TO NAME A FEW.

Originally posted by Mouth
much of this info that they know is either easy to get for anyone...

That does not mean the gov't should be illegally collecting and profiling based upon it. Even if they do not use it until a future date it is still sickening to anyone who has served in the name of freedom and liberty.

Originally posted by Mouth
If you think the Background check done for ATC is a simple $12 one, you are sadly mistaken.

Yipee. so maybe they go ask your old neighbors about you... check your local jurisdictions for crimes... Run a credit check... No big deal. They are not the top of the food chain when it comes to profiling and "checking" on people. A singl, low security check is not what we are talking about. We are talking about data warehousing and data mining... you are trying to change the topic to some little FAA whoopdedoo.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Yipee. so maybe they go ask your old neighbors about you... check your local jurisdictions for crimes... Run a credit check... No big deal. They are not the top of the food chain when it comes to profiling and "checking" on people. A singl, low security check is not what we are talking about. We are talking about data warehousing and data mining... you are trying to change the topic to some little FAA whoopdedoo.

Alright, back to topic, do you agree that there are terrorists inside and outside of this country that want to do harm to innocent civillians? Cause if you do, then please, by all means, give an alternate way of tracking these individuals within a sea of millions (and billions). Please. Tell me. I am sooooo curious to know your solution.



[edit on 14/8/06 by Mouth]

Originally posted by Mouth
Alright, back to topic, do you agree that there are terrorists inside and outside of this country that want to do harm to innocent civillians? Cause if you do, then please, by all means, give an alternate way of tracking these individuals within a sea of millions (and billions). Please. Tell me. I am sooooo curious to know your solution.

As far as I can tell there has been possibly or exactly ONE terrorist attack on US soil since I have been alive...

Maybe the FAA and NORAD should have just followed their procedures and none of this would be necessary?

I do not live in fear of terrorists. I do not believe the threat is what you make it out to be nor do I believe that these unprecedented invasions of privacy have anything to do with this percieved threat.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Slap Nuts]

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
Dad was in the wrong club in college? FLAGGED
Middle Eastern? FLAGGED
Wire Transfers? FLAGGED
Certain Genes? FLAGGED
"Discipline Problems"? FLAGGED

I used to worry about "Big Brother" knowing what I was up to.

But then I came to the conclusion: So what if I am "FLAGGED"?

If some guy in an NSA information warehouse wants to know that I eat Cheerios, buy porno movies, forward e-mail jokes about Iraq being turned into a parking lot, and cross the Verrazano Bridge every day at 4:45pm... well... who cares?!

What do you think are they going to do with all that information?

[edit on 14-8-2006 by craig732]

Originally posted by craig732
What the do you think are they going to do with all that information?

If they had no plans for it... why would they warehouse it?

Originally posted by VushtaAgain...so what do you all suggest as methods to track and disrupt the terrorists and their plans? Are you all saddened that the plans to blow up numerous planes was foiled?
If they would have succeded how much do you want to bet the the same people whining about 'lost liberties'..which no one so far has been able to list one that has actually affected their liberties personally, would be stating that the blown up planes were an 'inside job' to garner support to take away more of your 'liberties'.
You can't have it both ways.
So yet again...what do you suggest? What methods would be "O.K." with you all?

i have listed 3 lost liberties so far
just because you do not acknowledge them as liberties does not mean anything
they are indeed liberties and we indeed have lost them "for our own protection"

there is nothing we need proteciton from
drunk driving kills far more people than terrorism yet they don't bother outlawing liquor
why?
because they tried that once and it failed miserably

my point is that just because something can happen does not mean you have to frantically try to stop it preemptively

this is not "minority report", we do not have future telling psychics and we have laws that prevent people being locked up for no reason
your loving caring government is changing that
secret interrogation prisons are being called for in greater numbers

you seem to like saying that's not in the constitution so i'll play along
*wire tapping is not in the constitution
*secret prisions are condemned in the constitution
*the rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness are expressly given to you along with all the other basic rights implied by the "among these"
*the constitution implies a government controlled by the people, yet the people are currently controlled by the government

there, now you can refute these points and i can sit here and close my eyes to what YOU have to say the way you have done to everyone else!

Originally posted by Slap Nuts


As far as I can tell there has been possibly or exactly ONE terrorist attack on US soil since I have been alive...

unless you are only 6 years old....

WTC x 2
Oklahoma City

just to name more than 1

I do not live in fear of terrorists. I do not believe the threat is what you make it out to be nor do I believe that these unprecedented invasions of privacy have anything to do with this percieved threat.

Good for you bro. However, other (most) people do. Now, if you don't think this "invasion of privacy" has anything to do with sifting out possible terrorism, than why is the government doing it? Why else gather all that usless information?

Originally posted by Mouth
unless you are only 6 years old....

WTC x 2
Oklahoma City

OKC was supposedly by an American so no go on that, but I will give you the WTC for 2.

Originally posted by Mouth
Good for you bro. However, other (most) people do. Now, if you don't think this "invasion of privacy" has anything to do with sifting out possible terrorism, than why is the government doing it? Why else gather all that usless information?

The information is NOT useless. this is the information age. Information is a valuable commodity for many reasons. One of which is controlling those who choose to disagree. I will not speculate on the GRAND MOTIVE, however, collecting petabytes of information on the innocent masses is illegal.

Originally posted by Vushta
Sooooo...what do you guys suggest for methods to uncover and track terrorist ties and plans? Give me something specific and realistic....anything?

there's a very simple method
the way cops have busted criminals for centuries
pose as arms dealers, drug dealers, buyer, suppliers
infiltrate their groups
catch or kill their leaders
have security personel that will actually pay attention and do their jobs

there is no need for 24/7 computer automated phone tapping
no need for secret detention centers
no need to prevent people from bringing liquids on planes
no need to strip any of our liberties or freedoms away

we are just as safe now as we were before 9/11, because of the marvel that is the human mind:
the more constricted you are, the more you are prevented from doing what you want, the more creative you will be in getting around the system

apply this concept to hackers, there is no security made that has not been compromised or therorized about how it could be compromised when technology advances or if more money were available

now apply this concept to terrorists, they suposedly are funded by kings and other very wealthy individuals and nations, bribing a security guard would be childs play

"the weakest link in the security chain is the human factor"
any network admin will tell you this

let the government take all your rights and freedoms all you want, it won't protect you any more than being under a tree in a lightning storm
hopefully you got the implication but just in case, the tree actually would attract the lightning to that area thus increasing your risk of being struck

the government striping us of our liberty is upsetting alot of people and if enough people get upset the government will have to worry about alot more than terrorists, they'll have to worry about revolution

Originally posted by craig732

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
Dad was in the wrong club in college? FLAGGED
Middle Eastern? FLAGGED
Wire Transfers? FLAGGED
Certain Genes? FLAGGED
"Discipline Problems"? FLAGGED

I used to worry about "Big Brother" knowing what I was up to.

But then I came to the conclusion: So what if I am "FLAGGED"?

If some guy in an NSA information warehouse wants to know that I eat Cheerios, buy porno movies, forward e-mail jokes about Iraq being turned into a parking lot, and cross the Verrazano Bridge every day at 4:45pm... well... who cares?!

What the do you think are they going to do with all that information?

well, if they get suspicious of you say hello to a secret detention center!
or they could just say you're conspiring to commit terrorism and lock you up till your trial because your a flight risk being middle eastern and all
dont think so?
3 guys from toledo ohio got arrested on such charges back in feb 06
their trial is may 1st 07

even if you've got nothing to hide, with all that information they CAN connect you to terrorism and arrest you if they so choose
it is estimated that everyone is connected to everyone else by no mre than 6 people
with this information they WILL be able to connect you to whoever they want

there is a reason to fear, but it is not terrorism, it is homeland security you should be afraid of.

Originally posted by wondernut

there is a reason to fear, but it is not terrorism, it is homeland security you should be afraid of.

The US Government is incompetent. They couldn't (or didn't want to) catch 19 people who attacked us on 9/11.

You think I am worried about them coming after me?

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Originally posted by craig732
What the do you think are they going to do with all that information?

If they had no plans for it... why would they warehouse it?

I couldn't care less why they warehouse it, but it suspect it is because they are incompetent.

Too many people give the US Government WAY too much credit. They are an inefficient bureaucracy.

just because you do not acknowledge them as liberties does not mean anything

I have to disagree. Whining about saftey procedures is simply that ..whining.
You have the freedom to choose. If you don't like a companies policies don't use the service they provide. If you want to take gatorade on the plane and its against current policy, don't fly...drive, or bike, or walk...or fly and follow policy. Talk about liberties?..you want to take away the liberty to establish business policy for all companies you may want to use or whine "you don't have the right to make me...." Bull! Grow up its a dangerous world and something must be done.

there is nothing we need proteciton from

That statement speaks volumes. Wake up indeed.

drunk driving kills far more people than terrorism yet they don't bother outlawing liquor

Irrelevent.

my point is that just because something can happen does not mean you have to frantically try to stop it preemptively

This to seems to be deflective logic.
"just because something can happen..etc." is not the point.
Something is happening and it would be nothing but naive and foolish to allow it to go on until somethig does happen. Its like this..just because compulsive drinking can cause cancer just ignore it and call it a personal choice. Don't bother getting treatment for the cancer....kinda makes sense.
BUT once you develop a spreading cancer invasive measures are warrented and necessary and no doubt the patient experiences a kind of 'enlightenment' and regrets not seeing the light earlier and doing something about it before the disease took hold.
The disease is taking hold. Its time to put down the intoxicants of self-rightous petty 'group-think' whining and function as a part of a healthy conscious system to beat the disease.

this is not "minority report", we do not have future telling psychics and we have laws that prevent people being locked up for no reason
your loving caring government is changing that
secret interrogation prisons are being called for in greater numbers

Who needs physics? Just open your eyes.
I haven't heard great calls for more? 'secret prisons'...what do you mean?

you seem to like saying that's not in the constitution so i'll play along
*wire tapping is not in the constitution
*secret prisions are condemned in the constitution
*the rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness are expressly given to you along with all the other basic rights implied by the "among these"
*the constitution implies a government controlled by the people, yet the people are currently controlled by the government

How could wire taps be in the constitution?

You need to define "secret prisons"

Life/liberty/happy etc. is so often used as an excuse for anything. This almost doesn't need a response..."It makes me happy to drive 85 mph. downtown....the constitution says I have the right...POLICE STATE!" etc.


So anyway...what do you suggest for methods to identify and track terrorists?

there's a very simple method
the way cops have busted criminals for centuries
pose as arms dealers, drug dealers, buyer, suppliers
infiltrate their groups
catch or kill their leaders
have security personel that will actually pay attention and do their jobs

..and how was this done? How were these people initially identified as criminals involved in criminal activities in order to infiltrate and act as arms dealers..drug dealers etc.? I'll give you a hint..identifying suspecious activity..covert monitering..wire taps..informants etc.

But this is really an apples to oranges comparision.

The motivation in arms dealings or drug dealing is simple...profit and power.
The activities themselves were more easily traceable because they required the movement of large amounts of product with the effort of many people for any one movement.

Terrorism is different. In many cases the people who commit terrorist acts are acting on their own and up until tha act is commited may exibit no odd behavior. Larger acts..like 911 can be pulled off over many years of planning with no material needing to be moved...the planes were the bombs. The motivation is also different. Its not money to the patsies who actually do the dirty work. These people are basically fanatical robots on a mission. The likeyhood of any of them 'rolling over' on one of their own is practically nill. The upper levels of the organizations are so tight that infiltration is next to impossible.

there is no need for 24/7 computer automated phone tapping
no need for secret detention centers
no need to prevent people from bringing liquids on planes
no need to strip any of our liberties or freedoms away

Thats your opinion... what is it based on? Again...what liberties are being stripped away?

we are just as safe now as we were before 9/11, because of the marvel that is the human mind:
the more constricted you are, the more you are prevented from doing what you want, the more creative you will be in getting around the system

Whats your point??

now apply this concept to terrorists, they suposedly are funded by kings and other very wealthy individuals and nations, bribing a security guard would be childs play

"the weakest link in the security chain is the human factor"
any network admin will tell you this

let the government take all your rights and freedoms all you want, it won't protect you any more than being under a tree in a lightning storm
hopefully you got the implication but just in case, the tree actually would attract the lightning to that area thus increasing your risk of being struck

the government striping us of our liberty is upsetting alot of people and if enough people get upset the government will have to worry about alot more than terrorists, they'll have to worry about revolution

The people who fund the activities don't know whats being done with the money or support.
What makes you think the people with HUGE amounts of money and a strong political bias would be so easy to bribe with.....more money?

I haven't lost any rights or freedoms, so your points along these lines are moot to me.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts


OKC was supposedly by an American so no go on that, but I will give you the WTC for 2.

wow.... Um, just because it was done by an American, doesn't rule it out as an act of terror. That is exactly my point. There needs to be some sort of vigilance over not only foreign, but also domestic threats to our way of life.

The information is NOT useless. this is the information age. Information is a valuable commodity for many reasons. One of which is controlling those who choose to disagree. I will not speculate on the GRAND MOTIVE, however, collecting petabytes of information on the innocent masses is illegal.

I tell you, alot of the information IS useless, cause 98% of it won't be used against anyone. The government is not going to try to steal bank account numbers, or peoples identities, etc etc. The government wants to AVOID another terrorist attack. I know what you are gonna say, that the evil government was the cause of 911... yadda yadda yadda.