Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

Section 505 ruled unconstitutional

On September 29, 2004, U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero struck down Section 505—which allowed the government to issue "National Security Letters" to obtain sensitive customer records from Internet service providers and other businesses without judicial oversight—as a violation of the First and Fourth Amendment. The court also found the broad gag provision in the law to be an "unconstitutional prior restraint" on free speech. [12]

That's one.

Originally posted by wondernut

Originally posted by tuccy
Lost no freedom.
Gained a bit more security.
But then maybe I'm not paranoid enough

go try to climb the statue of liberty
go try to bring gatoraid on a plane
go talk on your phone without being monitored

good luck, cause those are 3 of the fredoms you lost just in the last few months
securty comes at the cost of freedom by nature
after being a computer tech for 5 years i can assure you, there is no such thing as security, only its illusion and the idiots who believe it will protect them

locks dont keep theves out, they keep honest men honest
all the laws in the world will not prevent people from killing each other

edit:
and no i'm not a bad computer tech either, i'm an honest one
the only method of creating flawless security is to not make anything that needs securing
since that's impossible and all man made systems are flawed there can be no such thing as security.
"where there's a will, there's a way"
anyone determined enough will get past all the security you set up to protect yourself
the only sure way to protect yourself is to kill yourself before they kill you first!

[edit on 12-8-2006 by wondernut]

erm, you can't prove your phone is being tapped. And looking at your other 'freedom curbs'.....OOOOOOOOhhhhh the evil NWO is out to get you, you can't bring certain items on a plane!!!!!! Evil baby eating, devil worshippers

The fact that the lawsuit for the NSA wiretaps through AT&Ts own system being overturned for national security reasons is proof enough.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf




Im so glad you consider basic privacy and civil rights to be mere "convienences".

How is a background check the violation of basic constitutional right?
What kind of background check are you talking about? ..a financial check?..makes sense to me.
Are you speaking from experience, because I've never had to sign some sort of all inclusive disclosure papers to open a bank account.

Again..let me ask the question.
What do you suggest as a way for authorities to track the movements of terrorists and their plans? Its a simple and direct question. You guys are whining about it like your tits are caught in a wringer..so what do you suggest?


[edit on 13-8-2006 by Vushta]

Liberties that I have lost.......

None really. I can still buy a firearm, I can still call my Congressmen idiots in public, I can still travel whenever I want, I can still pretty much do whatever I want.

Wiretaps?

Was much worse under Clinton. Of course, the government has always had the ability to wiretap anyone (and has used it long before the Patriot Act).

Bank accounts?

Funny, I walked into a local bank a couple months ago and walked out less than 30 minutes later with a new account. No background check needed. Yes, if I walk in and deposit 10 grand in cash they will notify the government, but thats been a practice for over 15 years.

Libraries?

Who cares if someone knows I read Tom Clancy or Anne Coulter?

Right to privacy?

Sorry, not listed in the Constitution. In actuality, your rights only extend to the point that it endangers others, and that has ALWAYS been the case. With the exception of Roe V. Wade.

So someone takes a good look at my carry on at the airport..big deal. So I cannot carry my shampoo on anymore, oh wait, I always pack that in the checked baggage. Dont you think the families of the hijacked jets on 9/11 wish that security would have confiscated the knives????

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

You have no right to privacy.

With a SINGLE SEARCH the NSA can get most of your:

Bank transactions (Combined with shared store data a list of EVERYTHING you buy item by item)
Credit Report
Medical Records (Possibly with DNA)
Criminal Records
Phone records
Internet Histories
Educational Records
Vehicle registration information
Gun Registrations

[edit on 11-8-2006 by Slap Nuts]

I work for a Private Investigator in New York State

I can get many of the above listed items legally also.

I would never do anything illegal but I could probably, with very little effort, get everything else through other means.

This is nothing new since 9/11.

swampfox,

Apparently no one has insinuated you MIGHT be a slime ball yet, because that seems to be when everything goes to crap.

Good for you!

And then there is this:

www.nationalvanguard.org..." border=0>

Chertoff Says U.S. Needs More Authority

The nation's chief of homeland security said Sunday that the U.S. should consider reviewing its laws to allow for more electronic surveillance and detention of possible terror suspects, citing last week's foiled plot.

Michael Chertoff, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, stopped short of calling for immediate changes, noting there might be constitutional barriers to the type of wide police powers the British had in apprehending suspects in the plot to blow up airliners headed to the U.S.

But Chertoff made clear his belief that wider authority could thwart future attacks at a time when Congress is reviewing the proper scope of the Bush administration's executive powers for its warrantless eavesdropping program and military tribunals for detainees held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

More...

Wake up people.... :shk:

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
Liberties that I have lost.......
None really. I can still buy a firearm, I can still call my Congressmen idiots in public, I can still travel whenever I want, I can still pretty much do whatever I want.

keep telling yourself that long enough and you'll eventually stop believing it when they rip the gun from your hands

Wiretaps?
Was much worse under Clinton. Of course, the government has always had the ability to wiretap anyone (and has used it long before the Patriot Act).

yes, but they have never had every phone (in/out bound of usa) wiretapped 24/7 until reciently

Bank accounts?
Funny, I walked into a local bank a couple months ago and walked out less than 30 minutes later with a new account. No background check needed. Yes, if I walk in and deposit 10 grand in cash they will notify the government, but thats been a practice for over 15 years.

i'll give you that one, but background checks are becoming more common place

Libraries?
Who cares if someone knows I read Tom Clancy or Anne Coulter?

umm, the government's anti-terrorism units?
what happens if the library screws up and accidently scans "the anarchist's cookbook" instead of the book you are holding, or for that matter if the computer glitches and does that
guess what, your name just got redflagged in a database somewhere!

Right to privacy?
Sorry, not listed in the Constitution. In actuality, your rights only extend to the point that it endangers others, and that has ALWAYS been the case. With the exception of Roe V. Wade.

actually you misinterpret the constitution

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

the part in question is the "among these" part, indicating there are more than just three rights to which every man is endowed, but these three are so important that they were mentioned by name to ensure they would stand if all others failed, because all god given rights are, in one way or another, covered by these three
had they not intended this view they would have wrote "... that are ..."

do not so quickly give up what so many have died for to ensure you receive

So someone takes a good look at my carry on at the airport..big deal. So I cannot carry my shampoo on anymore, oh wait, I always pack that in the checked baggage.

hmm, interesting point, what's to keep terrorists from checking their liquid explosives?
a bottle full of one part of the bomb, some time release capsules filled with the the other part inside them, and a capsule of lithium to detonate it

Dont you think the families of the hijacked jets on 9/11 wish that security would have confiscated the knives????

besides law enforcement, weapons have always been illegal on planes, bottled water has not.

go read your constitution and realize what your rights are so the next time they get trampled on you might know and protest

Originally posted by Peyres
erm, you can't prove your phone is being tapped. And looking at your other 'freedom curbs'.....OOOOOOOOhhhhh the evil NWO is out to get you, you can't bring certain items on a plane!!!!!! Evil baby eating, devil worshippers

i believe the phrase is, "it starts with one"
consider the domino effect
also consider that at&t has been prven to be working with the cia hading over phone logs and such

just because you don't want to believe your government is stealing your freedom and close your eyes when the evidence is shown to you does not mean you are right
you are like an ostrich sticking your head in the ground





[edit on 14-8-2006 by wondernut]

Originally posted by loam
Wake up people.... :shk:

agreed
good find by the way, my friends and family will love to hear about this

Michael Chertoff, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, stopped short of calling for immediate changes, noting there might be constitutional barriers to the type of wide police powers the British had in apprehending suspects in the plot to blow up airliners headed to the U.S.

Soo..what you're all saying is that Britian is already the police state you all fear?

Wake up indeed.

Again...so what do you all suggest as methods to track and disrupt the terrorists and their plans? Are you all saddened that the plans to blow up numerous planes was foiled?
If they would have succeded how much do you want to bet the the same people whining about 'lost liberties'..which no one so far has been able to list one that has actually affected their liberties personally, would be stating that the blown up planes were an 'inside job' to garner support to take away more of your 'liberties'.
You can't have it both ways.
So yet again...what do you suggest? What methods would be "O.K." with you all?

Originally posted by wondernut

keep telling yourself that long enough and you'll eventually stop believing it when they rip the gun from your hands

yes, but they have never had every phone (in/out bound of usa) wiretapped 24/7 until reciently

Please. You think the government has enough employees to monitor EVERY phonecall? Here's a notion: Don't do anything illegal, and you got nothing to worry about.

i'll give you that one, but background checks are becoming more common place

Obviously, you do not know how much it actually costs to perform a background check.

umm, the government's anti-terrorism units?
what happens if the library screws up and accidently scans "the anarchist's cookbook" instead of the book you are holding, or for that matter if the computer glitches and does that
guess what, your name just got redflagged in a database somewhere!

That is a big what if....

actually you misinterpret the constitution

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

the part in question is the "among these" part, indicating there are more than just three rights to which every man is endowed, but these three are so important that they were mentioned by name to ensure they would stand if all others failed, because all god given rights are, in one way or another, covered by these three
had they not intended this view they would have wrote "... that are ..."

do not so quickly give up what so many have died for to ensure you receive

Doesn't say anything about privacy, which is what the other post discussed

hmm, interesting point, what's to keep terrorists from checking their liquid explosives?
a bottle full of one part of the bomb, some time release capsules filled with the the other part inside them, and a capsule of lithium to detonate it

The screening of checked baggage is much more efficient than carry-ons.

besides law enforcement, weapons have always been illegal on planes, bottled water has not.

go read your constitution and realize what your rights are so the next time they get trampled on you might know and protest

I think you should read farther than the first line yourself, before ranting and raving about lost rights that you do not know anything about.

Originally posted by Mouth
Please. You think the government has enough employees to monitor EVERY phonecall?

No, they have computers to sift and mine data. Inform yourself.

Originally posted by Mouth
Here's a notion: Don't do anything illegal, and you got nothing to worry about.

The expectation and right to privacy is granted to those NOT breaking the law under the constitution. I'm "legit" but they have no right to complie my life on a disc for future "profiliing", etc. You do not understand the immense implications.

Originally posted by Mouth
That is a big what if....

That is a matter of opinion and since you do not seem to know much about data warehousing and data mining I believe you are unqualified to form an opinion on this topic.

Originally posted by Mouth
Doesn't say anything about privacy, which is what the other post discussed

I suggest you learn what the word liberty means. Maybe if you read more about the constitution and the bill of rights, American history, the founding fathers and their goals, reasoning and intents, you would understand a little better.

You sound like you are a fascist?

Sooooo...what do you guys suggest for methods to uncover and track terrorist ties and plans? Give me something specific and realistic....anything?

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

No, they have computers to sift and mine data. Inform yourself.

I know more about computers than you think. Furthermore, I like the fact that they are watching out for people using the words "bomb" "terrorist" "conspiracy" etc... if you are dumb enough to be talking about things like that over the phone, you deserve to be profiled. Aren't telephones a service provided?

The expectation and right to privacy is granted to those NOT breaking the law under the constitution. I'm "legit" but they have no right to complie my life on a disc for future "profiliing", etc. You do not understand the immense implications.

So what do YOU have to worry about? If a company has access to your "file", won't you then be more happy that it is really clean? Personally, I don't want to be working next to a past criminal. Medically speaking, that is a different story, which I do not agree with.

That is a matter of opinion and since you do not seem to know much about data warehousing and data mining I believe you are unqualified to form an opinion on this topic.

Oh, so you must be an expert. Whatever man, sorry that YOU think that I am unqualified to form an opinion. Please.

I suggest you learn what the word liberty means. Maybe if you read more about the constitution and the bill of rights, American history, the founding fathers and their goals, reasoning and intents, you would understand a little better.

Definition of liberty:

lib·er·ty (lbr-t)
n. pl. lib·er·ties
1.
a. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
c. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.
4.
a. A breach or overstepping of propriety or social convention. Often used in the plural.
b. A statement, attitude, or action not warranted by conditions or actualities: a historical novel that takes liberties with chronology.
c. An unwarranted risk; a chance: took foolish liberties on the ski slopes.
5. A period, usually short, during which a sailor is authorized to go ashore.

Does the word privacy come up here?

Source

You sound like you are a fascist?

Originally posted by tuccy
Lost no freedom.
Gained a bit more security.
But then maybe I'm not paranoid enough

Since you don't live in the USA, how could you feel any of OUR freedoms that have been lost?

Originally posted by Mouth
Does the word privacy come up here?

1a and 2...

You are happy to be fascist?

I sure as hell miss my constitutional right to be murdered my a bunch of muslim freaks.

Originally posted by Mouth
Oh, so you must be an expert. Whatever man, sorry that YOU think that I am unqualified to form an opinion. Please.

As a matter of fact I am. If you could possibly fathom the amount of data being stored and sorted regarding your personal life you would puke. If you had any idea how easy it is to link all of this information with the proper credintentials, you would puke. If you had any idea...

Location: Phone GPS, Car GPS, Onstar, Debit/Credit Transactions, Cameras, RFIDs
Habits: Itemized Purchases, Travels, Diet (via. itemized CC/Debit Transactions)
Medical: "Predisposition", Pshyc (via. DNA profiling and records), Perscriptions
Financial: Credit, Net Worth, All Bank Transactions
Regulations: Gun Registrations, Vehicles, Military Records, School Records, Penal Records
Communications: All Call Data, Internet History, FedEx, UPS

All of this data is able to be collected WITHOUT a warrant under the patriot act. IT is EASY to do. It is even easier to have a computer "flag" those that meet certain profiling criterium...

Dad was in the wrong club in college? FLAGGED
Middle Eastern? FLAGGED
Wire Transfers? FLAGGED
Certain Genes? FLAGGED
"Discipline Problems"? FLAGGED

They can find out more about you than YOU KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF as they have studied Psychology for decades on your dollar, collected the data and trained the computers...

They know how often you screw by hoe many rubbers/birth control pills you buy.
They know your favorite beer and how much of it you drink.
They know if diabetes runs in your family.
They know if your family has a generally low IQ.
They know if you are obiedient.
They know if you are not.
They know where you are, when you went and for how long.

All they need to do is click.