Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

Originally posted by bothered

You have to be kidding, I am going to try this first thing in the morning.
WIS

Originally posted by niteboy82

As I said these are strange times. You can employ the 'ostrich principle' if you like, but I prefer to be pro-active. If I could get some of these BLB's within gladius range, I'd be sooooo happy to take care of part of this problem myself. Failing that, I have to rely on someone else. Surely I can't rely on you or people that think like you. So for better or worse, in the short term, it has to be the U.S. government. I'm willing to bend (not break) a little for security and to protect as much of this way of life as can be protected. Unlike you, I'm not willing to see my family, friends, or countrymen die just so I can stand on "principle".

Agreed it can be a slippery slope, but so is the slope on the other side. The one that leads to anarchy and death.

Maybe the biggest difference is that I think the outside threat to this country is the greater of the two.

I think its funny, want to know why? How many of you have any importance to any large amount of people. This isnt meant to sound like a jerk or anything, but what importance do you have what so ever? Just because your choice is to be insignificant and "average" means you have nothing to hide doesn't mean everyone should be watched. Just because the government sees you as so unimportant in every aspect of life so you have nothing to fear, doesn't mean you have the right to take away from others and force them to be the same.

Every good law, can be an evil one. Sure you can use it to catch those murderers...but who else can you catch? Lets as bill clinton when he spied on religious right wing groups? Im sure they were terrorists right? Lets ask W about the environment groups hes spied on. Sure they are a big threat. Lets take it one step further and explore what may be happening even now.

Say Im the head of a growing business. Im growing at a fast rate, I even have the potential to put something like walmart in competitive prices again. Might even pressure them where their stock goes down. One thing I don't have...a bunch of bought off politicians that can authorize wiretaps NOW LEGALLY by simply saying "we need to moniteer him, we think he is receiving or giving funds to terrorists" or maybe hes even part of a terrorist group. All walmart needs is some bought out politicians, and they can legally get those politicians to gather all the resources and secrets this new company has. Inside Trading ring a bell? Nothing like a politician friend telling you a company will have a big jump next week in stocks because they are moniteering one of the CEOs under these new terrorist laws.

Sure that would never happen...well if the courts actually got to hear about it you would be right. Its just too bad the new law makes WARRENTLESS ones legal...so you really think the court says who it can or cant? Nope. Why warrentless though? Because the immediate threat? Anybody like to tell ATS how long it take to get a court warrant for an immediate threat to life?

Originally posted by centurion1211
And you saw that Bush - that's right, GWB - signed an executive order protecting people's property from eminent domain seizures of the type we're most conccerned with - to build shopping malls, etc?

Mind providing a link of the actual order?

Oh, and since when does an "executive order" trump a ruling of the Supreme Court????

Oh, that's right...We're talking about King George, aren't we? I forgot... My bad...

Looking forward to that link.

[edit on 11-8-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Lets ask W about the environment groups hes spied on. Sure they are a big threat.

What Environmental groups did GWB spy on? I'm not saying I doubt it. I'm just trying to keep informed. As for how dangerous Environmentalists can be,.... well,.... there's E.L.F. They've been known to burn down buildings and SUV's. Happened in our area at least three times the year before last. I often wonder if they realize they're probably causing more pollution with these car fires than those cars could have caused during their daily lifetime operation.
There are extremists in every group. You've got extremist Christians shooting doctors and blowing up abortion clincs for instance. Just a thought.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
As for how dangerous Environmentalists can be,.... well,.... there's E.L.F.

Let's be clear! The ELF are not environmentalists...they're criminals.

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
As for how dangerous Environmentalists can be,.... well,.... there's E.L.F.

Let's be clear! The ELF are not environmentalists...they're criminals.

That they are. No argument from me there. Here's a quote from Wikipedia

The Earth Liberation Front was founded in 1992 in Brighton, England by members of the "Earth First!" environmental movement......The FBI refer to the ELF as "eco-terrorists" [17] and critics consider it luck, more than anything, that no one has been killed by the ELF's arson [18] (pdf). Some mainstream environmental groups and advocates condemn the ELF for using violence (against property), and claim that their approach does more harm than good to their cause [19]. Some question whether ELF's actions in fact harm the environment, a spokesman for the Vail Ski Resort, which the ELF fire bombed in 1998 in protest of a planned extension, explained, "more logs were used to rebuild the resort than were cut for the [original] expansion"

[edit on 12-8-2006 by leapofdreams]

Originally posted by leapofdreams
My phone has been taped. All i have done is lived i Saudi when i was 6month to 13 but i was born in the states and i am an American. Yes we have lost tons of rights and the only reason why you say we haven't is because you do not do anything but go to work and go home. If you live life you will see all that you have lost.

* Deep Breath*

Well if you are mad about what has been done to you! You have the right to fight it in a court of law. This being the internet you could be anyone. So excuse me, if I don't find this admission strange. If you have information from the FOIA, you can post it to prove it! Delete that, which we could find on our own , if you wish. Provided you really got it from FOIA. I will set this straight one time. I am a tour manger for large musical acts. I have a great life , paid well, and have no gripes. I am way more left than right. I am a white guy with dreads to my bottom. I get looked over more than twice. Am I paranoid about that? NO! I have no Idea what you are talking about. I expect some sense of wonderment, I look good. Relax , no boogie men are coming to get you. Just trying to protect the masses. COOL?

[edit on 11-8-2006 by Duhh]

Technology our savior, technology our nemesis. Due to the hyper-expansion in information technology, the right to privacy does not exist in the 21st century. Be grateful that we live in a benevolent society, as opposed to China. Not to wave the Flag, but that's why we get the perk of free information exchange. The result is that a free society obtains a huge windfall of ideas from its brighter creative intellectuals. Beats being roadkill, right? So, pick a freedom, any freedom but... Flash_dancer

Originally posted by Duhh
I hear this from people, on this board all the time. They state their civil liberties, are being trampled, or taken away. I would like to know. What has changed in your life since 911, to make you feel this way. If it is indeed connected to the 911 CT frame work.

I miss the ability to climb to the crown of the "statue of liberty"
ever since 9/11/01 they have had it closed off to the public and yesterday declaired it closed permanently
link to msn article about it:www.msnbc.msn.com...

i almost cried when i read this as i have always wanted to do this and now never will be able to.

ironicly, the highest you can now ascend is to her feet.
i found that rather fitting of the current times.

by Slap Nuts:
As an American, you are granted certain inalieable rights. PRIVACY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS being two of them.

REPLY: Just curious......... could you please show me where the Bill of Rights says you have the "right to privacy"?

Bank transactions
Credit Report
Medical Records (Possibly with DNA)
Criminal Records
Phone records
Internet Histories
Educational Records
Vehicle registration information
Gun Registrations

REPLY: Any employer can find out most of this, and many items can be had by anyone, just by having your name or phone number.... costs about $29.00 to $75.00

I miss being able to open up a bank account without a background check.

REPLY: I'd try a different bank or two..... that sure doesn't happen everywhere.

let's ask the U.S. citizens being held at Gitmo if they feel any civil liberty loss. Oh wait, we can't contact them......one civil liberty lost.

Due proccess is in place so people are not charged with a faulty charge, have access to a lawyer, have a trial etc, etc.

REPLY: Contacting Gitmo, or anyone there, is not a civlil right, 'nor is it a "right."
Due process does not apply for enemy combatants.

By the way, there is a large difference between "rights" and "civil liberties." Rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, civil rights are not.

The patriot act -biggest traitor document to the Constitution that has EVER come to being.

REPLY: 99% of the laws encompassing the Patriot Act have been on the books for two or three decades.

The act of 9/11 shows the U.S. government will kill you without due process of law if they see fit to do it.

REPLY: Pretty much anyone can do that, not just the gov't.

in lieu of a junk beauracratic system that allows people to drown in an American city

REPLY: That was Mayor Nagin's and their governor's doing. (Love the pic of your girlfriend).

I miss the simple comfort of knowing there is accountability in government...

REPLY: How long have you felt this way? Just curious.

Oh, and since when does an "executive order" trump a ruling of the Supreme Court????

REPLY: By the way, the Supreme Court does not make law, 'nor can they change laws. A SC ruling is nothing more than legal opinion.

Posted on 06/24/2006 3:45:58 AM PDT

WASHINGTON — President Bush declared Friday that the federal government can only seize private property for a public use such as a hospital or road.

The president signed an executive order in response to a Supreme Court decision granting local governments broad power to bulldoze people's homes to make way for private development.

Due to the hyper-expansion in information technology, the right to privacy does not exist in the 21st century.

REPLY: Ummmm ..... it doesn't exist in the Bill of Rights, either; Been that way since it was written.



[edit on 12-8-2006 by zappafan1]

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: Just curious......... could you please show me where the Bill of Rights says you have the "right to privacy"?

It is not expressly written there. It has been interpreted by the Supreme Court as emanating from the penumbra of rights found within the Bill of Rights.

Would you prefer the Supreme Court hold a different view?

Yes, I could go fight in court and complain that way. The thread was not what retaliation you are going perform over the civil liberties you have lost. Plus it is a bit redicilous for one person the attempt to take the federal government to court. I may live on a Formosa but i am not a billionaire that has endless amount of cash to throw at lawyers. And as for taking all the time to edit my file and post it, I could make a fake one that would look more authentic. Just because some one post some official looking text doesnt prove anything, anyway anyone can forge a document if they are smart enough to get on the net. And like i said i don't have a scanner. As you can see I removed my earlier post because i don't like even that much information about me out on the net in plain site. I should not have posted anything about it but some one said no rights or civil liberties are being violated. As for what i am going to do about it as soon as i take care of some family situation I am moving out of the country. I simply do not believe that the government has every ones best interest in mind. I believe that in a growing majority the government seems to be making far to many decisions that are only in the best interest of share holders. I do have an especially large concern that greed can severely corrupt what someones perception of the right thing is. Especially when they think money is the only thing that is good for the country. That's when bureaucrats start looking so far down the line at future monetary gains they forget to look to see what there agenda is doing to the public right now.

I believe most people do not have the ability to handle power with out being selfishly corrupted by it. Humans simply have not evolved to that level.

LFOD;

I believe most people do not have the ability to handle power with out being selfishly corrupted by it. Humans simply have not evolved to that level.

So where is it you are moving? Cuz that sounds like my kinda place. Come...on.............I won't tell anyone.
..........Boooh !!!!

[edit on 12-8-2006 by Duhh]

Lost no freedom.
Gained a bit more security.
But then maybe I'm not paranoid enough

i felt it important to leave the origional poster's comments intact.

Originally posted by zappafan1

by Slap Nuts:
As an American, you are granted certain inalieable rights. PRIVACY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS being two of them.

Just curious......... could you please show me where the Bill of Rights says you have the "right to privacy"?

privacy falls under "LIBERTY"

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

let's ask the U.S. citizens being held at Gitmo if they feel any civil liberty loss. Oh wait, we can't contact them......one civil liberty lost.
Due proccess is in place so people are not charged with a faulty charge, have access to a lawyer, have a trial etc, etc.

Contacting Gitmo, or anyone there, is not a civlil right, 'nor is it a "right."
Due process does not apply for enemy combatants.
By the way, there is a large difference between "rights" and "civil liberties." Rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, civil rights are not.

the problem is that these are not enemy combatants, they are citizens of foreign countries that are being held without cause
apparantly you missed the "all men are created equal" line in the constitution
here it is again for you

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

notice that is says "among these", implying there are more than just these but these are the ones our founders felt most important to mention to make sure they are never forgot

The patriot act -biggest traitor document to the Constitution that has EVER come to being.

99% of the laws encompassing the Patriot Act have been on the books for two or three decades.

if that's the case then why bother with the patriot act?
redundancy?
it's not the 99% good food in rat posion that kills the rat buddy, it's the 1% posion.
one need only look to the DMCA to see the harm of legislation written to stop the evil "hackers" of the 90's
the patriot act will do the same to society that the DMCA did to electronics
ever burned a dvd? Congrats your a criminal!

The act of 9/11 shows the U.S. government will kill you without due process of law if they see fit to do it.

Pretty much anyone can do that, not just the gov't.

it is not the government's job to do that; the government's job is to serve the people ,not kill them

in lieu of a junk beauracratic system that allows people to drown in an American city

That was Mayor Nagin's and their governor's doing.

initially yes, but since then the aid received has been insufficient
the 500 billion a year spent in iraq would go a long way back home in the states

I miss the simple comfort of knowing there is accountability in government...

How long have you felt this way? Just curious.
Oh, and since when does an "executive order" trump a ruling of the Supreme Court????
By the way, the Supreme Court does not make law, 'nor can they change laws. A SC ruling is nothing more than legal opinion.

apparantly you failed civics, the three branches in government all trump each other
legislative makes laws
executive enforces laws
judicial interprets laws
all 3 have ways to bypass each other.

Due to the hyper-expansion in information technology, the right to privacy does not exist in the 21st century.

Ummmm.. it doesn't exist in the Bill of Rights, either; Been that way since it was written.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_%28United_States%29]no it exists in the Constitution, read it sometime![/url

Originally posted by tuccy
Lost no freedom.
Gained a bit more security.
But then maybe I'm not paranoid enough

go try to climb the statue of liberty
go try to bring gatoraid on a plane
go talk on your phone without being monitored

good luck, cause those are 3 of the fredoms you lost just in the last few months
securty comes at the cost of freedom by nature
after being a computer tech for 5 years i can assure you, there is no such thing as security, only its illusion and the idiots who believe it will protect them

locks dont keep theves out, they keep honest men honest
all the laws in the world will not prevent people from killing each other

edit:
and no i'm not a bad computer tech either, i'm an honest one
the only method of creating flawless security is to not make anything that needs securing
since that's impossible and all man made systems are flawed there can be no such thing as security.
"where there's a will, there's a way"
anyone determined enough will get past all the security you set up to protect yourself
the only sure way to protect yourself is to kill yourself before they kill you first!

[edit on 12-8-2006 by wondernut]

Originally posted by WalkInSilence

Originally posted by bothered

You have to be kidding, I am going to try this first thing in the morning.

WIS

I have to admit, this method does rely heavily on the fault of the monitorer speaking when the send/receive signal of the fax is not recognized by them.

I heard a comment once like : "Hello. Hello. Who is this?"

I bet no one's life has changed at all to be honest. Lets face it, its not like we're
living in 1984 is it? We have way better secruity now and the chances of being killed
by a terrorist are slim anyway.

My life has not changed it all, i still go to work, go out with my friends, and eat and drink
anything i want, watch and read anything i want, and buy pretty much anything i want.

Who you vote into government and what laws they create doesnt affect your life
if you can do all of the above IMO.