Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

Originally posted by Griff

Before I look like a fool......there are U.S. citizens in Gitmo right?

Yes there were. That guy Padilla. I don't know if he is there anymore. There is also another guy that I know of.

By the way, U.S. civil liberties aren't extended for citizens alone. They apply to all persons on U.S. soil. Guantanamo, even though it is in Cuba, is a U.S. military base and thus, considered U.S. soil.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
As an American, you are granted certain inalieable rights. PRIVACY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS being two of them.

Quoted for truth.

Along with those, I miss the rights of a fair and speedy trial with adequate representation.

We now live in a society where you are guilty until proven innocent, and that's if you get the chance to try.

With the current laws, if you are merely accused of being a "terrorist", you can be detained indefinitely without access to a lawyer or even the ability to contact your family to tell them where you've disapeared to.

I, of course like many, have "nothing to hide" but, the patriot act basically defines a "terrorist" as someone who does anything that goes against the American way of life.

What defines "the American way of life"?

Our rights and laws.

Theoretically, if you are accused of breaking any law, you can be labeled as a terrorist and "disapear".

Better double check to make sure you don't have a tail light out. :shk:

Do I think that these laws will be abused to their fullest extent?

I hope not.

But as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[edit on 8/11/06 by redmage]

even though it is in Cuba, is a U.S. military base and thus, considered U.S. soil.

Sorry to point out the small stuff, not that it matters, but that's a common misconception. US bases overseas are not considered American soil. Only U.S. Diplomatic stations (ie embassies, certain consulates and the special interest in Cuba) are considered to be American land (for lack of a better term).

Sporty

[edit on 11/8/2006 by SportyMB]

lets see... besides the massive snooping of our phones.. emails.. computers...
the rights for our houses to be searched WITHOUT a warrant.

Lets look at the Pedilla case for as second...you know what this case did?
It set a dangerous precident that now allows AMERICAN CITIZENS to be held without Constitutional representation.

What rights have been taken away..indeed.

the problem here is that since YOU havnt seen anything happen in front of your face you think that it isnt there. Well, guess what, its there.. but by the time you see it in your face it will be too late. And after yesterdays "terror bust"(crock) there will be even more erosion of our rights.

Hey look around the corner.. national ID's are on the way. RFID chips in everything we buy is coming around the corner.

NO PRIVACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO right to be secure in our papers, posessions, effects.
No Freedom of the press
No trial by representation
No innocent until proven guilty
Use of our military for domestic policing
The patriot act -biggest traitor document to the Constitution that has EVER come to being.
The right to be stopped searched and seized ANYWHERE at ANYTIME for ANY REASON.- which violated the fourth amendment.... again

should I go on?

I think this is enough for now.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I miss being able to attend public finctions without having my person and belongings rifled through and searched.

I don't miss having to worry about people bringing in consealed weapons into public functions. I enjoy feeling safer than before 911

I miss being able to travel without having to give biometric data like some common criminal.

biometric data? Look, air travel is a main target of terrorists, as we have seen in the past 30 years. So, you know what, ANYONE can be a terrorist. We have know way of knowing. Deal with it, or get out of my country.

I miss being able to open up a bank account without a background check.

besides a credit check, I was able to open a bank account pretty easily.


Sorry, guess a difference of opinions

original quote by: Mouth
biometric data? Look, air travel is a main target of terrorists, as we have seen in the past 30 years. So, you know what, ANYONE can be a terrorist. We have know way of knowing. Deal with it, or get out of my country.

your country? funny but I could have sworn that it was OUR country... it sure as hell isnt YOURS.... And remember that silly little document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights... of course you dont...cause if you did you wouldnt be saying things like get out of my country...

If you dont like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights then maybe it is you that should start packing up your bags... Ill even buy you the ticket to... where? China, Russia, Iran?.. after all, none of those places have a Constitution that grants people
"Certain unalienable rights". And our leaders have all shown their traitorous colors, and cowardice.

Anyone that is against the Constitution should be the ones to leave America not those that are trying to defend it..

thank you,

Originally posted by Vushta
So you're dead now and communicating from the other side??

This thread was posted into the 9/11 conspiracy forum. The act of 9/11 shows the U.S. government will kill you without due process of law if they see fit to do it.

Tone... very good points! You're absolutely right. Things get whittled away slowly until before you know it there gone. I've been asked to point out what rights have been taken away before and have actually had difficulty answering. I think that's how subtle and deceptive this plan is! You almost don't realize what's really going on.

Here's a couple more... security cameras everywhere including public places and eminant domain. Also, for the record, RFID chipping me or my family will be the last straw.

Originally posted by Mouth
biometric data?

Mouth, take at a look at this thread I started awhile back on mandantory biometric passports in all 27 VWP countries.

besides a credit check, I was able to open a bank account pretty easily.

And this thread about my expierence with Western Union.

Mouth, my problem is not with the current security measures...I don't mind being searched, checked, profiled, etc... My problem, and I think I speak for many on ATS, is when society slowly accepts these security measures as a "must have". Checkpoints lead to Bio scanning, that leads to curfew, that leads to something else, etc.. etc..

Then one day we will be in a state of martial law and not even know it because all the measures and mandates will be considered the norm because they were slowly put into place and accepted one at a time.


Sporty

[edit on 11/8/2006 by SportyMB]

Threads like these always make me think of those famous words by Pastor Martin Niemöller. :shk:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Or, in an updated version by Steve Rohde:

First they came for the Muslims--
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came for the immigrants detaining them indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General--
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys--
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions--
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches--
and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups--
and I didn't speak up because I no longer participated in any groups.

Then they came to arrest American citizens and hold them indefinitely without any charges and without access to lawyers--
and I didn't speak up because I would never be arrested.

Then they came to institute TIPS, the " Terrorism Information and Prevention System," recruiting citizens to spy on other citizens--
and I didn't speak up because I was afraid.

Then they came to institute Total Information Awareness, collecting private data on every man, woman and child in America--
and I didn't speak up because I couldn't do anything about it.

Then they came for immigrants and students from selective countries luring them under the requirement of "special registration" as a ruse to seize them and detain them--
and I didn't speak up because I was not required to register.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it only aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies--
and I didn't speak up . . . because I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me--
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[edit on 8/11/06 by redmage]

Originally posted by Pyros
Insteresting. So far, not a single example of a lost liberty has been demonstrated. So much for big brother behind the scenes......

That's exactly what I was thinking. Just seeing a lot of "Whaaaaaa!". Reminds me of a previous thread on this same subject, where when I pressed a person to actually name a lost freedom all he could come up with was that people couldn't smoke in his bar any more (damn al-qaeda and Bush for that!).

Seems we have many, many "chicken littles" on this site these days.

Originally posted by centurion1211
That's exactly what I was thinking. Just seeing a lot of "Whaaaaaa!".

So you believe that it is OK for the NSA to collect and use the information I laid out above without a warrant?

Be careful with your answer.

IF you do, then in my opinion you are a fascist and hate America and American values. You are the opposite of a patriot and do not care about liberty.

Redmage, thank you for the 2 quotes. Very appropriate. Last year at a public library in the U.S., an elderly woman who walked into the library's main entrance saw a prominent sign at the library's front desk, warning the library clientele about the impact of the USA Patriot Act on library users. She muttered, "This is worse than the Red Scare" (of the U.S. 1920s), turned around, and marched out.

U.S. libraries have been fighting the chilling effect of the USA Patriot Act since its inception. The Constitution and Bill of Rights enumerate the responsibilities and rights of Americans; our rights should not then be eradicated in a heavy-handed and ineffective so-called "national security" campaign. The freedom to form opinions without fear is an important part of why we read.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Pyros
Insteresting. So far, not a single example of a lost liberty has been demonstrated. So much for big brother behind the scenes......

That's exactly what I was thinking. Just seeing a lot of "Whaaaaaa!". Reminds me of a previous thread on this same subject, where when I pressed a person to actually name a lost freedom all he could come up with was that people couldn't smoke in his bar any more (damn al-qaeda and Bush for that!).

Seems we have many, many "chicken littles" on this site these days.

Thats funny that you use such a pathetic example to prove your point... But when people start giving you REAL reasons.. you just willfully ignore them.. how convienient for you. Now try reading some of the posts here in this thread before knocking it down with a pathetic analogy.

The only chicken littles are the A-holes in govt... those are the real cowards here. They have usurped the Constitution out of fear.. and you have allowed it out of fear... and you call us chicken littles?

BTW, I DID list several freedoms and rights that have been removed.. but I guess you just dont like to read do you? I didnt make ANY of them up.. EVERTHING I listed is documented FACT.

so maybe you should go back to China, Iran or any of those nations that DONT have a Constitution or Bill of Rights.. that way when the Govt says jump you can happily jump for them... But the rest of us Americans will be fighting for the freedoms that you are not.

P.S. bring alittle more to the table next time or else we will all starve from your lack of depth.

Hmmm... Interesting perspective. One thing about the America I LOVE is we don't take anybody "messing with us" lightly, granted, I grew up in Texas and have a skewed view but still.

It smacks of sneaky skull duggery when the little things are slipped in and we all agree because "Anybody could be a terrorist" so we need to suspect/search and surviel everyone.

WHO says anyone could be a terrorist? WHO says the threat is real and the danger is close at hand? Those who are enacting the restrictions that's WHO.

I am not opposed to taking care of our security, I am not opposed to being smart and nailing those who would do us harm BEFORE they do it, that's common sense.

I am opposed to those who DARE to call anyone "Anti-American" for questioning the merits of these measures or questioning the authenticity of the "danger"!

The day we all roll over and allow anyone with a tale of "threat and danger" to limit our liberties or enact new restrictive laws without ANSWERING WHY is the day we cease to BE America.

Springer...

the problem here is that since YOU havnt seen anything happen in front of your face you think that it isnt there. Well, guess what, its there.. but by the time you see it in your face it will be too late. And after yesterdays "terror bust"(crock) there will be even more erosion of our rights.

very good point tone23 the problem with alot of americans and probably people around the world is that, there is a mentality that if it is not happening to me then how bad can it be. Our rights are being rights are being significantly cut off at the seams every year, and because people are afraid of what challenging the US goverments policy will do to them and their patrioism, that we just accept these national security policies as benign in nature because in the end some believe our soil we will be guarded and the grass will continue to be green.

Originally posted by Springer
The day we all roll over and allow anyone with a tale of "threat and danger" to limit our liberties or enact new restrictive laws without ANSWERING WHY is the day we cease to BE America.

I agree. But that's also the problem....they are answering why.

Q: Why are these restrictive measures in place?
A: Because terrorist attacks on U.S. soil are imminent, yada yada yada...

It's the American people that need to draw the line and say when too much is too much. WE need to do this before it's too late. Before what I mentioned in my last post is considered "the norm".


Here's a little somthing to think about....you know, about us feeling scared and helpless and what power that gives to the government.

"If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual." - Frank Herbert -


Sporty

[edit on 11/8/2006 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yes there were. That guy Padilla. I don't know if he is there anymore. There is also another guy that I know of.

Jose Padilla was never held at Guantonamo Bay. He was held at a military brig in south Carolina.

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yes there were. That guy Padilla. I don't know if he is there anymore. There is also another guy that I know of.

Jose Padilla was never held at Guantonamo Bay. He was held at a military brig in south Carolina.

where he was held is of no consequence what-so-ever. It is the result of his incarceration that is the problem.

It is now OK to hold, indefinately, an American citizen WITHOUT Constitutional representation..

please people dont get caught up in trivial symantics... the end result is what was the crux of the arguement here... not the time and place yada yada.

Originally posted by redmage
Threads like these always make me think of those famous words by Pastor Martin Niemöller. :shk:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I enjoyed the updated version. Thanks for sharing.

I'm going to be honest. I'm not one to give into government conspiracies easily (this coming from someone having lived under Communism). For me, the jury is still out on '9/11'. I can't say any of my rights have been violated (as far as I can tell). Nothing has changed for me, except when (at one point) I had a one-way ticket to another U.S. state, because I planned on driving back, not flying. I was taken aside, searched and questioned, etc. etc. The people searching and questioning me were polite, and after they were finished (five minutes later), they let me be on my way. I took it as a security measure more than a violation of my rights.

On the other hand I read and watch the news (Israel/Lebanon conflict is reported on nearly 24/7), movies like "V for Vendetta" and "9/11" play in the theaters, I read the posts here,... and my suspicion is arroused. I thought I was slightly paranoid before, but after having joined ATS and reading some of these threads in combination of TV and news reports, my paranoia increased by at least a small percentage.

So I guess the question to myself (and perhaps others) is; How much influence does ATS have on my paranoia, and how much of that paranoia is valid??
Are ordinary citizens around the world (especially within the U.S., Great Britain and Australia) who don't read forums like ATS experiencing this kind of paranoia as well? Do THEY feel their rights have been violated? Are they aware of any of our (ATS) concerns?

Another question to ask is; How did people around the world feel during WW I. and II.? How about the Cold War? If there was paranoia and fear of the Apocalypse due to times of war, how does it match up with what we are experiencing now? Is this paranoia experienced by citizens anytime their country is at war? Is there always a fear of losing one's civil liberties during war? Is this normal?
Just some questions, so I live up to my ATS member name.

I think this has the potential to become something terrible, (as described by redmage's post above, but I can't say that my fears are completely rational at this point. Saddly I'd have to see it get a bit worse than it is at this stage to say "Now I'm worried. Something needs to be done". Just my opinion.