The "Call them terrorists" Fad.

Originally posted by laiguana
I have no issue with the way our government defines terrorists

An arguement between neighbors occurred in a small town in southwestern ohio. One of the neighbors was charged with "terrorist menacing" according to the local news report. So yeah, Ive got a problems with the use of the term "terrorist" by government.

case in point:

Lebanese hospital: Number of casualties from Qana air strike is 28, not 52

On Wednesday, Human Rights Watch questioned the death toll in the Qana attack. The international group listed the names of 28 known dead from the attack and said that 13 others were missing and might still be buried under the rubble. The discrepancy was attributed to an assumption that only nine of the people who took shelter in the basement of the building survived, but it emerged that at least 22 escaped, the group said.

kind of hard to talk numbers when they keep changing.

Yeah the numbers might not be exact but its still tells a story unless you are saying that israel has lost the same amount of civilians


Also I got those numbers for MSN( forgot to tell where I got those numbers)

[edit on 3-8-2006 by Kramthenothing]

Its times like these that i'm reminded of a quote by Orwell

"We human beings are capable of convincing ourselves of something thats not true after the accumulated evidence would convince any reasonable person that its wrong."

Is Israel targeting civilians? Would you believe it if evidence showed that they were?

“Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed,” bellowed an Israeli general in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

“One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t wake up in the morning,” said Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

“Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah,” roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon

Gillerman, at a pro-Israel rally in New York, thundered, “To those countries who claim that we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: You’re damn right we are.”

SOURCE

Make no mistake about it, Israel does not care that there are civilians in the areas that it bombs, which last time I checked, makes them just as guilty as terrorist who target civilians.

With that in mind. Read the quote again
As long as we label the other group as a terrorist, we have free reign to do what we want under the guise of "defeating terrorism"

Originally posted by xEphon

Make no mistake about it, Israel does not care that there are civilians in the areas that it bombs, which last time I checked, makes them just as guilty as terrorist who target civilians.

Great post. Those who claim Hezbollah is the only party using propaganda are really pathetic. Both parties use propaganda as a tool of war, period. One difference: Israeli propaganda reaches the mainstream US media, while Hezbollah's propaganda doesn't.

Besides, one off topic remark: It's really ironic what Israel recommends to Lebanese civilians by leflet drops: ''Please get the hell of out there as we're gonna bomb it away'' but if you try to escape we'll bomb you away anyway on a highway or a bridge.

Originally posted by xEphon
Make no mistake about it, Israel does not care that there are civilians in the areas that it bombs, which last time I checked, makes them just as guilty as terrorist who target civilians.

then ask yourself this question:

if they dont care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb the whole area? why spend the time and effort with smart bombs that minimize civilian casualties? why spend days warning civilians to leave the area with leaflets and telephone calls before attacking......a practice that pretty much tells hizbollah exactly where they plan to attack?

no, if they truelly didnt give a damn about civilian casualties, you would have seen no warnings from israel, and probably a much more effective campaign to be quite honest.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Besides, one off topic remark: It's really ironic what Israel recommends to Lebanese civilians by leflet drops: ''Please get the hell of out there as we're gonna bomb it away'' but if you try to escape we'll bomb you away anyway on a highway or a bridge.

speaking of propaganda. what you and the media are not pointing out is that they can leave on foot any time they like....israel's warning specifically said not to drive vehicles in the area. funny how that little tidbit always gets left out.

Originally posted by snafu7700

then ask yourself this question:

if they dont care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb the whole area? why spend the time and effort with smart bombs that minimize civilian casualties?

Pretty easy, then the US would not be able to support them anymore. No one would accept it and sanctions would be taken.

Originally posted by snafu7700
why spend days warning civilians to leave the area with leaflets and telephone calls before attacking......a practice that pretty much tells hizbollah exactly where they plan to attack?

no, if they truelly didnt give a damn about civilian casualties, you would have seen no warnings from israel, and probably a much more effective campaign to be quite honest.

Read my post above. They bomb away everything, no matter whether you are fleeing or staying.

Originally posted by snafu7700

speaking of propaganda. what you and the media are not pointing out is that they can leave on foot any time they like....israel's warning specifically said not to drive vehicles in the area. funny how that little tidbit always gets left out.

What in gods name do you expect them to do? Walk from the Israeli border to Beirut with barely any food or water?

Since Israel bombs away UN employees as well its very hard for convoys to reach Southern Lebanon with the so needed supplies. Within weeks people are going to die due to a shortage of foodstuffs and other crucial products to stay alive with.

Last, Israel has no justification to bomb away each and every car since there might be an Hezbollah militant in it.



[edit on 3-8-2006 by Mdv2]

if they dont care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb the whole area? why spend the time and effort with smart bombs that minimize civilian casualties? why spend days warning civilians to leave the area with leaflets and telephone calls before attacking......a practice that pretty much tells hizbollah exactly where they plan to attack?

It seems to me thats exactly what they're doing. They are carpet bombing any area that they think has hezbollah in it, regardless of civilians.

The fact that they are using smart bombs only makes the casualties worst. Is Israeli intelligence THAT bad? Do they not have a lock on their target before they fire?

The reason for the leaflets is a lame excuse to justify blanket bombs. They know very well that not all civilians have left the area. So what do they do, call them TERRORIST! Anyone left in the area is a terrorist and deserved to die! I mean, common its getting rediculous.

Originally posted by xEphon


It seems to me thats exactly what they're doing. They are carpet bombing any area that they think has hezbollah in it, regardless of civilians.

In addition they use forbidden weapons according to international regulations, nice and burning cluster bombs.

The United Nations said it fears Israel’s using cluster bombs as part of its bombardment in Lebanon, as allegations of attacks using phosphorous bombs and chemical weapons were under investigation by Lebanese authorities.

"We have expressed our concern regarding the use of cluster munitions," Farhan Haq, a UN spokesperson in New York, told The Daily Star.

The Daily Star said it was informed by a senior official within the Lebanese Army that the military issued "warnings to citizens in the places bombed by Israel not to get near or touch suspicious bodies, which might be unexploded cluster bombs."

Officials confirmed Israel's use of cluster bombs in several areas in the South, including the towns of Blida, Hebbariyeh and Kfarhamam.

The Israeli army denied using banned weapons, but the Human Rights Watch (HRW) confirmed its use of cluster bombs in Lebanon.

HRW issued a statement Monday, saying:

"Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon ... Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border."

Attached with the HRW statement were some photos from the Israeli side of the border that showed the ordnance.

Kenneth Roth, the executive director of HRW stated that: "cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians ... They should never be used in populated areas."

Also eyewitnesses interviewed by HRW confirmed the organisation’s statement.

"Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida at around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from larger shells."

Lebanese authorities are investigating reports that Israel has also used phosphorous munitions in its attacks.

The Lebanese Minister of Health has warned earlier that Lebanese children who got hurt in Israeli attacks are suffering from the impact of white phosphorus.

Source

Haven't heard the Hezbollah ''terrorists'' have been using chemicals lately, have you? Oh, I can recommend you to click on the source to see the effect of cluster bombs on the human body. But hey, Israel cares about the Lebanese civilians ey?

read it again.....intentionally target civilians. you know, like fire katusha rockets directly into the most populated civilian areas.

You have got to be kidding me.
Hezbollah firing rockets with a one mile CEP in the general direction of Israel is "intentionally targeting civilians", but Israel dropping PGM's in the heart of a crowded city is not?

How deluded are you people?

Lets see, Hezbollah so far has killed fewer Israeli civilians (what, 40 total?) than soldiers.
Israel, on the other hand, has at last report killed at least 900 Lebanese civilians.

And yet you're trying to claim Israel is "not targeting civilians"?
Do you have any idea how absurd you sound?

This whole "not intentionally targeting civilians" thing is such a crock.
It's like hearing Al Quaeda claiming they were "not intentionally targeting civilians" on 9-11 - they were just trying to knock down the buildings...
It's not their fault that 2800 civilians "just happened to be there"


[edit on 8/3/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by Mdv2
Read my post above. They bomb away everything, no matter whether you are fleeing or staying.

and read my post above....you keep ignoring the fact that israel specifically stated that vehicles will be targeted so dont use them.

Originally posted by Mdv2
What in gods name do you expect them to do? Walk from the Israeli border to Beirut with barely any food or water?

how many weeks has it been since the initial warnings? almost 3? i'm sorry, but if i knew an impending attack was coming, i would have packed up the essentials and started walking a long time ago.....and if i wasnt convinced then, the first couple of days of bombing would have done it for me. those who stayed did so at their own risk. besides, you know as well as i do that they dont have to get to beirut, they only need to get north of the litani river.

Since Israel bombs away UN employees as well its very hard for convoys to reach Southern Lebanon with the so needed supplies. Within weeks people are going to die due to a shortage of foodstuffs and other crucial products to stay alive with.

i dont mean to seem callous, but war is hell. they were warned to start walking long ago.

Last, Israel has no justification to bomb away each and every car since there might be an Hezbollah militant in it.

maybe not, but again, they specifically warned civilians about the use of cars.

Originally posted by xEphon

It seems to me thats exactly what they're doing. They are carpet bombing any area that they think has hezbollah in it, regardless of civilians.

sound like you need to do some research:

carpet bombing
The phrases area bombing and carpet bombing refer to the use of very large numbers of unguided gravity bombs to attempt the complete destruction of a target region, either to destroy personnel and materiel, or as a means to demoralize the enemy. The phrase probably is intended to invoke the image of bombs completely covering an area, like a carpet.

thats pretty different than sending a single bomb to attack a single building.

The fact that they are using smart bombs only makes the casualties worst.

again, see above.

Is Israeli intelligence THAT bad? Do they not have a lock on their target before they fire?

bad intelligence is not the issue here. mistakes happen in any war.

The reason for the leaflets is a lame excuse to justify blanket bombs.

blanket bombing is synonymous with carpet bombing, which i think i have shown is a term that you are using in the incorrect context.

They know very well that not all civilians have left the area. So what do they do, call them TERRORIST! Anyone left in the area is a terrorist and deserved to die! I mean, common its getting rediculous.

so you want them to wait until every single civilian finally heeds their warning and leaves the area, right? in the mean time, hizbollah will continue to fire rockets from the area in question. sure, that sounds like sound military strategy to me.

Originally posted by Mdv2

Haven't heard the Hezbollah ''terrorists'' have been using chemicals lately, have you? Oh, I can recommend you to click on the source to see the effect of cluster bombs on the human body. But hey, Israel cares about the Lebanese civilians ey?

your source is al jazeera.....gee, they are well known for their unbiased reports arent they? hold on, i've got a couple of sources from world nut daily to add while we are at it.

Originally posted by xmotex
You have got to be kidding me.
Hezbollah firing rockets with a one mile CEP in the general direction of Israel is "intentionally targeting civilians", but Israel dropping PGM's in the heart of a crowded city is not?

once again we are comparing apples and oranges. youre comparing a terrorist group that is intentionally targetting areas of concentrated civilian populations instead of targetting legitimate military targets simply for the terror effect (hence the name terrorist) with a country that is using presicion weaponry to attack only targets it deems to be (albeit sometimes innaccurately) legitimate targets.

Lets see, Hezbollah so far has killed fewer Israeli civilians (what, 40 total?) than soldiers.
Israel, on the other hand, has killed at last report killed at least 900 Lebanese civilians.

again, by whose numbers? my report a few posts ago clearly shows that neither side's reports are to be trusted.

And yet you're trying to claim Israel is "not targeting civilians"?
Do you have any idea how absurd you sound?

already covered above (with conciderably less sarcasm).

[edit on 3-8-2006 by snafu7700]

Is the word "terrorist" thrown around too much? You decide:

cyber-terrorist

n : a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to steal or change or destroy information as a form of cyber-terrorism [syn: hacker, cyberpunk]

dictionary.reference.com...

"Cyber-Terrorist"
"n : a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to steal or change or destroy information"

Yep, that would make me one.
I break into computer systems, and leave a message to warn the users of those computer systems that it was possible for me to do so... well, I used to, back in the old DOS days. But computer security has really changed now.

Even today, I still find some systems with absolutely no security. Some with really shotty security... but for the majority of the systems, I find more and more people are network security aware.

So by definition, I'm a terrorist... huh... and I've never threatened a person in my life.




Last time I checked, wasnt the whole point to being a hacker the idea that nobody knew you were there?

I fail to see how you can enforce fear in a person for their life unless they meet your demands... and still qualify as a hacker.



What other pathetic uses of the term terrorism have you seen?

[edit on 3-8-2006 by johnsky]

Originally posted by xEphon
Make no mistake about it, Israel does not care that there are civilians in the areas that it bombs, which last time I checked, makes them just as guilty as terrorist who target civilians.

...as opposed to Hezbollah, who actively seek out civilians to hide behind and sacrifice, so as to make Israeli tactics seem worse than they are.

That would be a matter of oppinion.
What is worse? Ducking for cover behind a person, or firing through that person to get at the person ducking?

Which would you be? The coward who has no problem with a stranger taking the bullet for them? Or the murderer who doesnt care who recieves that bullet?

[edit on 3-8-2006 by johnsky]

once again we are comparing apples and oranges. youre comparing a terrorist group that is intentionally targetting areas of concentrated civilian populations instead of targetting legitimate military targets simply for the terror effect (hence the name terrorist) with a country that is using presicion weaponry to attack only targets it deems to be (albeit sometimes innaccurately) legitimate targets.

What a facile bit of nonsense. The distinction is purely academic, especially to the dead and maimed. Israel is bombing civilians. Hezbollah is rocketing them. The fact that Israel claims to be targeting "legitimate military targets" is completely irrelevant. By the same logic, Hezbollah could claim they're just trying to hit IDF positions, and missing badly...

again, by whose numbers? my report a few posts ago clearly shows that neither side's reports are to be trusted.

The numbers would have to be off by a factor of 10 to make any difference.
Nobody has complete numbers for Lebanon, as so many bodies are buried under rubble with nobody to dig them out.
Last I checked the total number of casualties in Israel was 28 civilians, 40 soldiers.

I'm not sure who you're trying to kid here, us or yourself.

[edit on 8/4/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex
What a facile bit of nonsense. The distinction is purely academic, especially to the dead and maimed. Israel is bombing civilians. Hezbollah is rocketing them.

wrong. israel is targetting hizbollah terrorists who are intentionally using the civilians for cover, hence the high body count. it's pretty damn hard to keep from hitting civilians when the enemy is using them as human shields. hizbollah, on the other hand, is intentionally targetting high population areas. that is fact...its on record. you can argue semantics all day long, but the facts will not change.

The fact that Israel claims to be targeting "legitimate military targets" is completely irrelevant.

wrong again. it is the most relevant part of our disagreement. again, israel is using precision guided bombs to target only hizbollah fighters and unfortunately those terrorists are hiding behind civilians. hizbollah is targetting cities, not military positions.

By the same logic, Hezbollah could claim they're just trying to hit IDF positions, and missing badly...

but they havent, have they? because the whole world knows exactly what they are doing.

The numbers would have to be off by a factor of 10 to make any difference.
Nobody has complete numbers for Lebanon, as so many bodies are buried under rubble with nobody to dig them out.
Last I checked the total number of casualties in Israel was 28 civilians, 40 soldiers.

and once again, where did you get those numbers? how do you know they are accurate? how can you or anyone confirm that the majority of those dead are actually civilians and not hizbollah?

I'm not sure who you're trying to kid here, us or yourself.

just trying to pry open minds that are clamped shut. ive known from your first post that there was going to be no convincing you. but if i can get you to at least open your mind enough to investigate the faults of both sides instead of just automatically deciding that israel is wrong no matter what it does, then i havent wasted my time.

You again completely miss the point. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference who Israel is targeting, the fact of the matter is that they're killing civilians. The intent only matters in the fervid imaginations of the targeters and Israel's apologists, the results are exactly the same. And the fact is also clear that it is not only Hezbollah that is being targeted, but any infrastructure that Hezbollah might want to use - bridges, roads, gas stations etc.

The "we're not targeting civilians" canard is a moral dodge for those who wish not to accept responsibility for their actions or the actions of those they support. When you drop a bomb on a bridge, or a gas station, or an apartment building, you're targeting civilians - whether you choose to admit it to yourself or not.

As far as fault, I'm perfectly happy to admit both sides are quite reprehensible, in fact they deserve one another. However the fact remains that by every single news account from the area, Israel is killing far more civilians than Hezbollah.

[edit on 8/4/06 by xmotex]