The Human Shield.

Originally posted by pstiffy
Do you have a source for these pictures? I am not saying its not true, I just have not seen anything like this, and I did a search and came up w/ nothing. Thanks

Hes talking about pictures in an australian newspaper with a bunch of Hizbollah guys sitting in an anti-aircraft vehicle in civilian clothes. I think it was Flyersfan that posted the link forgot which message it was.

The title of the picture means nothing. They could have just been civilians manning an anti-aircraft gun to repel Israeli warplanes flying overhead. I would say any civilian has a right to protect himself and his family from anyone endangering their welfare.

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by Snazuolu
...if someone went up to my wife and lifted her skirt in public with me standing next to her, guess what.. its gonan be ALOT of force used on that person.

For the purposes of this thread though, you've got to keep the story going.
After this guy lifts up your wife's dress, he stands behind a ten year old girl. You tell him that your going to make him pay and he throws a punch at you from behind the girl.

I promise you that the following would not be your response:

"I appreciate your survival instincts and commend you on your cunning strategy."

You would call the dude a coward.
Everyone around the situation would call the dude a coward.
And everyone around would be cheering like crazy for you to knock the dude out.

WONDERFUL!!!!!

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

Originally posted by pstiffy

The CIVILIANS aren't attacking Israel. You example has absolutely no relivance to the topic. The end DOES NOT justify the means.

[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

After reading my recent post on this thread, let's hear you explain exactly how Israel would be able to tell civilians from hezbollah fighters who are dressed as civilians and hiding out among the lebanese civilians?

Originally posted by Snazuolu
let me say this , this is me at my nicest persona. I understand its admirable to not wanna kill innocent kids and ppl in general, but hezzie isn't playing fair. so by everyone getting mad at Israel, you're excusing Hezzies actions of pretending to be civilians and using humans as shields to launch their missiles. theres nothign else to say to this. if you blame israel, then you're saying its ok what hezzie is doing. Israel is trying to do the right thing..and their in a difficult spot on 1 hand, yo ugot tree huggers, and the other you got terrorists. maybe the question here is what would YOU do if in charge of Israel??

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

If I was in charge of Israel NONE of this would have happened. I would not have over reacted to two soldiers being captured and leveled many parts of what was a beautiful country. I would have TRIED to resolve the situation diplomatically, with assurance that my people would not be harmed.

But I guess war and death is easier

Originally posted by intrepid
Snazuolu, so are you saying the end justifies the means?

as i have answered earlier, YES they do. if Lebanon doesnt' care about its own ppl coz they fear the hezzies, guess what.. BOMB THE EVER LOVING CRAP OUTTA THEM!! if you are that limp wristed, you'll either have no more ppl to govern or you'll be killed by your own ppl.

Originally posted by pstiffy

Originally posted by Snazuolu
let me say this , this is me at my nicest persona. I understand its admirable to not wanna kill innocent kids and ppl in general, but hezzie isn't playing fair. so by everyone getting mad at Israel, you're excusing Hezzies actions of pretending to be civilians and using humans as shields to launch their missiles. theres nothign else to say to this. if you blame israel, then you're saying its ok what hezzie is doing. Israel is trying to do the right thing..and their in a difficult spot on 1 hand, yo ugot tree huggers, and the other you got terrorists. maybe the question here is what would YOU do if in charge of Israel??

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

If I was in charge of Israel NONE of this would have happened. I would not have over reacted to two soldiers being captured and leveled many parts of what was a beautiful country. I would have TRIED to resolve the situation diplomatically, with assurance that my people would not be harmed.

But I guess war and death is easier

your over confidence in diplomacy is your weakness...you think for 1 second that hezzie would even talk to you in the first palce??

Originally posted by Snazuolu

Originally posted by intrepid
Snazuolu, so are you saying the end justifies the means?

as i have answered earlier, YES they do.

AND so does Hez. That's the point. Both wrong and both killing PEOPLE. Remember PEOPLE. You know? Those individuals that you talk to every day?

Originally posted by pstiffy

If I was in charge of Israel NONE of this would have happened. I would not have over reacted to two soldiers being captured and leveled many parts of what was a beautiful country. I would have TRIED to resolve the situation diplomatically, with assurance that my people would not be harmed.

Everyone knows this current situation is about way more than two kidnapped soldiers. They were just the 'straw that broke the camel's back'.

But I guess war and death is easier

Ah, another one that has either forgotten or never learned history's brutal lesson that appeasment never works. You can't always just run away and hope that someone else pays the price. Sometimes you have to make a stand.




[edit on 7/31/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Snazuolu

Originally posted by pstiffy

Originally posted by Snazuolu
let me say this , this is me at my nicest persona. I understand its admirable to not wanna kill innocent kids and ppl in general, but hezzie isn't playing fair. so by everyone getting mad at Israel, you're excusing Hezzies actions of pretending to be civilians and using humans as shields to launch their missiles. theres nothign else to say to this. if you blame israel, then you're saying its ok what hezzie is doing. Israel is trying to do the right thing..and their in a difficult spot on 1 hand, yo ugot tree huggers, and the other you got terrorists. maybe the question here is what would YOU do if in charge of Israel??

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

If I was in charge of Israel NONE of this would have happened. I would not have over reacted to two soldiers being captured and leveled many parts of what was a beautiful country. I would have TRIED to resolve the situation diplomatically, with assurance that my people would not be harmed.

But I guess war and death is easier

your over confidence in diplomacy is your weakness...you think for 1 second that hezzie would even talk to you in the first palce??

And you know this how? They (hezbollah) are a political party as much as they are a militia. have you spoken to their leaders and asked this?

You can call diplomacy a weakness all you want, but the problem is we have leaders all over the world that would rather solve their problems with guns instead of diplomacy.

Israel is taking the Bush administration stance on tagging certain nations in the middle east Terrorist states and refusing to do any negotiations with them.

That is a big mistake and one that only arrogance can create

Syria and Iran are very much involved with Hezbollah and they are the ones that can control them.

But putting a barrier against two sovereign nations is not good politics.

It only brings more sense that conflict with those two nations is what is been seek and Lebanon is just the starting point. . .

Originally posted by centurion1211


Ah, another one that has either forgotten or never learned history's brutal lesson that appeasment never works. You can't always just run away and hope that someone else pays the price. Sometimes you have to make a stand.




[edit on 7/31/2006 by centurion1211]

Unless you are living in Israel or Lebanon I'd say you are NOT making a stand AND watching OTHERS "paying the price."

Originally posted by pstiffy
You can call diplomacy a weakness all you want, but the problem is we have leaders all over the world that would rather solve their problems with guns instead of diplomacy.

Exactly!

And the problem with your thinking is that as long as even one world leader has weapons, then most or all of the others are forced to respond in kind - or they simply become vassals, slaves, or worse (dead) to the one that does have the weapons.

Think about it. This isn't some pie in the sky utopian dreamland we are discussing. This is the real world as it exists today.

Originally posted by Snazuolu

your over confidence in diplomacy is your weakness...you think for 1 second that hezzie would even talk to you in the first palce??

Maybe someone with your attitude they wouldn't talk to but thats just my opinion. Anyway who was the one that wanted to talk about a making a trade and who just went to fighting? It wasn't Hizbollah. After their kidnapping they made their demands without further attack. Israel chose this path to attack and destroy.

Also for a terrorist outfit, they showed a lot of restraint during that so called 48hr truce that Israel kinda-sorta had their fingers crossed behind their back on and Hizbollah didn't fire a shot during the whole thing. I doubt many terrorist outfits honor truces, but thats probably why only several countries consider them terrorists.






[edit on 31-7-2006 by ThePieMaN]

Originally posted by Snazuolu

Originally posted by Essedarius
For the purposes of this thread though, you\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'ve got to keep the story going.
After this guy lifts up your wife\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s dress, he stands behind a ten year old girl. You tell him that your going to make him pay and he throws a punch at you from behind the girl.

I promise you that the following would not be your response:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"I appreciate your survival instincts and commend you on your cunning strategy.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"

You would call the dude a coward.
Everyone around the situation would call the dude a coward.
And everyone around would be cheering like crazy for you to knock the dude out.

WONDERFUL!!!!!

You forgot to add the part where you outnumber the man about 30,000 to 1, and that the man does not run and hide behind a 10 year old Girl, he runs into the safety of a heavily populated Civilian area where people of all ages live, because Israel can not bomb there, or for the purposes of your (flawed) analogy, hit the man there, (or so one would think, after familiarisation with international law). Before anyone sais that the IDF told everyone to leave, can I ask just where the hell you expected them to go? Many roads are bombed, many convoys of Civilians have been bombed whilst leaving their homes, and already forgotten. The Airports are all destroyed, even the Lebanese Military Airports (and you expect this army to control Hezbullah now?!) Where the hell are these people all supposed to go? What are they supposed to do? Sly analogy, though, very sly. I bet you had a few people scratching their heads in thought, there, but not me.








[edit on 31-7-2006 by lieutenant commander data]

Originally posted by centurion1211


Everyone knows this current situation is about way more than two kidnapped soldiers. They were just the 'straw that broke the camel's back'.

Yes, I realize that.

Ah, another one that has either forgotten or never learned history's brutal lesson that appeasment never works. You can't always just run away and hope that someone else pays the price. Sometimes you have to make a stand.

None of us on here are paying any price. The only ones REALLY paying the price are the Leb and Israeli civilians who want no part in this.



[edit on 7/31/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by intrepid

Unless you are living in Israel or Lebanon I'd say you are NOT making a stand AND watching OTHERS "paying the price."

Right. So, exactly where do you live that gives you some "better" right to comment than I do? Oh, right, it says something about canada in your avatar.

You don't know me and you don't know how I'd react if placed in a similar situation in my country.

Since you don't know any of those things about me, I suggest you refrain from characterizing me in any such way. You want me to post my assumptions about you?

Originally posted by pstiffy
None of us on here are paying any price. The only ones REALLY paying the price are the Leb and Israeli civilians who want no part in this.

You got my vote. . .

And that gen and ladies is what many can not understand about the whole war issue in the middle east.

How much is worth ten lives if you can kill one within that ten that you see as the enemy. . .

Originally posted by centurion1211


Right. So, exactly where do you live that gives you some "better" right to comment than I do? Oh, right, it says something about canada in your avatar.

You don't know me and you don't know how I'd react if placed in a similar situation in my country.

Since you don't know any of those things about me, I suggest you refrain from characterizing me in any such way. You want me to post my assumptions about you?

RIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTT. The defense of the unthinking. I'm tired of seeing this. I would have much rathered if you could have replied in the spirit of the thread........... Logic. Care to? Or is this all you've got.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by pstiffy
You can call diplomacy a weakness all you want, but the problem is we have leaders all over the world that would rather solve their problems with guns instead of diplomacy.

Exactly!

And the problem with your thinking is that as long as even one world leader has weapons, then most or all of the others are forced to respond in kind - or they simply become vassals, slaves, or worse (dead) to the one that does have the weapons.

Think about it. This isn't some pie in the sky utopian dreamland we are discussing. This is the real world as it exists today.

Yes I wholeheartily agree with that statement, and I am not saying that we should just stand around and do nothing, but there were no attempts at a diplomatic solution to this problem (from when the two Israeli's were captured) before the real violence began . I am saying it should be talk first and if that fails, then force, not the other way around.

We are (supposed to be) a civilized society.


[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

Originally posted by pstiffy

None of us on here are paying any price. The only ones REALLY paying the price are the Leb and Israeli civilians who want no part in this.

I think that's incorrect. I've seen people posting on ATS threads that "say" they are located in that area on both sides of this conflict. Maybe not on this exact thread, but on other closely related threads.

So, if your comment boils down to "ATS talk is cheap", or something like that, then what is the point of this thread? Just more one-sided Israel bashing, or is it something deeper?