The Human Shield.

I've been hearing a lot about Hezbollah's(Hez) use of citizens to give them the advantage(The Shield) and then being fingered for the losses of their lives when Israel kills them. Well excuse me but being taught how to fire arms at a young age, we were taught that WE were responsible for what we fired at. What is being portrayed is flawed logic imo.

First off, I do not condone the ineffectual rockets that Hez is firing into Israel. Nor do I condone the excessive military force that Israel is using in Lebanon. They are killing as indiscriminantly as Hez's rockets and with much more devistation. OK, this is where the "Human Shield" comes in. Why does Hez fight in this manner? Because they are cowards, as some put forth here? Unlikely if you look at things logically. Hez has what? 2000 fighters some say but if you do the math it's closer to 6000. How does a force accomplish it's objective if they went toe to toe with this?

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF). The IDF as of August, 2004 had (according to unofficial estimates) 168,000 personnel, including 107,500 conscripts. The army had 125,000; the navy had 8,000; the air force had 35,000. Full mobilization to 576,000 could be quickly achieved with the reserves of 408,000.

It would be a quick demise for Hez, not even a weekend exersise. Looking at the numbers alone would say that they aren't cowards but to the contrary, they are fighting the only way they can in the face of a HUGE mismatch.

It seems like they are doing quite well too:

Source

It's hard to defeat a group of extremists who can mingle among civilian supporters and are pros at propaganda. Israel's military faces the same conundrum the United States has encountered elsewhere — finding that air strikes are costly in civilian deaths and public support, while ground attacks are risky for soldiers.

That does not mean Hezbollah is winning militarily.

But the guerrilla group has so far avoided a knockout by Israel, even as international pressure for a ceasefire has grown. And in the war of perceptions, Hezbollah has only to look strong against Israel and make Israel look bad to win across much of the Arab world, many analysts say.

That was brought into stark focus yesterday when an Israeli air strike flattened a house in southern Lebanon, killing more than 50 people, mostly women and children.

Israel apologized for the deaths and blamed Hezbollah, accusing it of using civilians as human shields.

Hez is fighting in the only way that they can in the face of a HUGE disadvantage, in numbers, in Tech, in firepower. Blaming them solely for the deaths of the Human Shield is shortsighted. Calling them cowards is idiotic at best or why would they go against those odds at all.

I don't understand what people want them to do. Should they wear uniforms? I would imagine since they are a guerrilla outfit they will be taking on new recruiits as time goes on anyway, and you would see people in their civvies no matter what. The whole thing is...Israel had a choice, they could have just bargained in the beginning rather then attack the whole country. IMO it was foolish since we all know that they will ceasefire soon and end up makeing a trade anyway.


Pie

ya know the thing that bugs me the most about what i have been seeing and hearing alot lately is that Israel is using too much force. To me, this is incomprehensible as to how ppl can even say this. I really believe that ppl in this day and age are unaware that war is supposed to be bad. I mean it utterly shocks me to see or hear ppl say this. War is bad, its supposed to be bad. its supposed to be something thats not wanted. yet ppl keep trying to make this war thing a pretty and clean fight. Unless you literally go door to door and have ALOT of troops on the ground, how do you really expect this to be fought without ANY civilian casualties?? to me, its jsut as bad to think that a war can be fought with no civilian casualties as it is the majority of ppl on this board thinking that Israel is using too much force. If someone breaks into your house are you gonan talk to them and see if you can get them to not steal or rape or muder anyone in your house by using diplomacy?? HELL no you're hopefully gonna put em in the ground. same with Israel, they were unprovoked and now you ppl want diplomacy to work? HA tree huggers never cease to amaze me.

Mod Note: You Have An Urgent U2U- Click Here.

[edit on 31/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

I agree with you . . .Inteprid

What I have been noticing is how fast the propaganda starts to move around in the US to keep the damage control against Israel at a minimum . . .

You know that the media outlets in the US belong to groups that are supportive of the administration and they will help the administration keep the support for the war in the Israel side.

You don't have to be a genius to see that everything Israel is accused of targeting purposely immediately the propaganda control comes to bring information that will render the original suspicious.

I am not trusting anything anymore that is coming from our side of the news in the US . . .

Intrepid is too obvious and too plain I am getting tire to be taken like I don't have a brain and can not smell the BS.

Coming from all sides . . .

Shameful . . .

[edit on 31-7-2006 by marg6043]

I agree with what you are saying here, Intrepid. These childish and ill-conceived regurgitations of the term Human Shield have become beyond tedious. People should really look into topics they are discussing, if they do not know, or understand them.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by lieutenant commander data]

Originally posted by Snazuolu
Unless you literally go door to door and have ALOT of troops on the ground, how do you really expect this to be fought without ANY civilian casualties??

What's wrong with putting troops on the line. Seems to me that THAT is their job.

HA tree huggers never cease to amaze me.

You calling me a tree hugger mate?

I think there is an important distinction that needs to be made between "collateral damage", which is the responsibility of the aggressor...and a "human shield", which is the responsibility of the defender.

If an attacking force intentionally destroys an entire population simply to eradicate a very small percentage of the population, then that is dispicable. It may be a regrettable necessity and a sound tactical move...but it is dispicable nonetheless.

If a military force intentionally places innocent and unarmed individuals between themselves and harm then...yes...that is cowardice. It may be the only chance for survival and a wiley military maneuver...but it is cowardice nonetheless.

When people is going to understand and stay away from the news filled propaganda the truth is that Israel has good weapons and good technology that only US can give . . .

Hezbollah doesn't have bases, neither camps they have not armed vehicules they are part of the Lebanese people and within the lebanes people . . .

And yes Israel knows that but it rather target the entire south of lebanon as Hezbollah and killing anybody that is in the middle.

The only way to exterminate Hezbollah like they want is to flaten the Lebanes country and kill all the population.



[edit on 31-7-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Snazuolu
Unless you literally go door to door and have ALOT of troops on the ground, how do you really expect this to be fought without ANY civilian casualties??

What's wrong with putting troops on the line. Seems to me that THAT is their job.

HA tree huggers never cease to amaze me.

You calling me a tree hugger mate?

ok first off let me say that your post was a good one coz i wrote something similar and it got deleted. i agree with some of what you're saying..and i have no idea if you're a tree hugger or not. What my main topic was and its not directed at anyone in particular, it was for everyone who read my post. War is bad and to me saying someone is using too much force is utterly ridiculous. give you an example...if someone went up to my wife and lifted her skirt in public with me standing next to her, guess what.. its gonan be ALOT of force used on that person. theres no such thing as excessive force. and it makes me almost mad to hear ppl say that...

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

Originally posted by intrepid
I've been hearing a lot about Hezbollah's(Hez) use of citizens to give them the advantage(The Shield) and then being fingered for the losses of their lives when Israel kills them. Well excuse me but being taught how to fire arms at a young age, we were taught that WE were responsible for what we fired at. What is being portrayed is flawed logic imo.

So, the above and the rest of your post makes it sound a lot like you are excusing hezbollah's use of innocent civilians as shields??? Exactly what sould the other side in such a situation do, just sit there taking losses without doing something to stop the situation? What's your solution to this military problem?

Also, looking at the pictures recently displayed showing hezbollah fighters manning weapons while dressed in civilian clothes begs another couple of questions. Could it be that many (most?) of the adult male 'civilian' casualties are really hezbollah fighters?

Even more importantly, exactly how would an opposing army tell the difference between hezbollah and real civilians when hezbollah purposely mingles with the real civilians? Of course, the unfortunate answer is that they can't tell the difference in the heat of battle. But then, that's exactly what the cowardly hezbollah fighters are counting on now, isn't it?

I can't believe you or any other logical person would be giving hezbollah a pass on this. Really, this isn't so hard to figure out and understand - unless maybe there's another agenda here ....

So Snazuolu, you're saying that the end justifies the means?

Originally posted by Snazuolu
give you an example...if someone went up to my wife and lifted her skirt in public with me standing next to her, guess what.. its gonan be ALOT of force used on that person. theres no such thing as excessive force. and it makes me almost mad to hear ppl say that...

The CIVILIANS aren't attacking Israel. You example has absolutely no relivance to the topic. The end DOES NOT justify the means.

[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

Originally posted by Snazuolu
theres no such thing as excessive force. and it makes me almost mad to hear ppl say that...

No you are right just collateral damage and a lot of pictures of death children . . .

Now how can that help Israel or any other country to gain support of sympathy from the rest of the middle east nations or the rest of the world.

It seems to me that the whole purpose is to bring more martyrs from other groups into Lebanon to help Hezbollah fight Israel.

Perhaps that is the whole purpose just like US did to Iraq after Liberation the war on terror was brought to Iraq lands with not regard of the Iraqi people.





[edit on 31-7-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by centurion1211


So, the above and the rest of your post makes it sound a lot like you are excusing hezbollah's use of innocent civilians as shields??? Exactly what sould the other side in such a situation do, just sit there taking losses without doing something to stop the situation? What's your solution to this military problem?

Also, looking at the pictures recently displayed showing hezbollah fighters manning weapons while dressed in civilian clothes begs another couple of questions. Could it be that many (most?) of the adult male 'civilian' casualties are really hezbollah fighters?

Even more importantly, exactly how would an opposing army tell the difference between hezbollah and real civilians when hezbollah purposely mingles with the real civilians? Of course, the unfortunate answer is that they can't tell the difference in the heat of battle. But then, that's exactly what the cowardly hezbollah fighters are counting on now, isn't it?

I can't believe you or any other logical person would be giving hezbollah a pass on this. Really, this isn't so hard to figure out and understand - unless maybe there's another agenda here ....

No problems mate, you don't get it. Lot's of people here don't. They buy into what's sold to them without thinking. I was looking at this from the point of logic. If you had taken the time to consider my original post I layed the blame on both parties involved.

Originally posted by pstiffy

Originally posted by Snazuolu
give you an example...if someone went up to my wife and lifted her skirt in public with me standing next to her, guess what.. its gonan be ALOT of force used on that person. theres no such thing as excessive force. and it makes me almost mad to hear ppl say that...

The CIVILIANS aren't attacking Israel. You example has absolutely no relivance to the topic. The end DOES NOT justify the means.

[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

oh my example has everythign to do with my trying to get everyone to understand that yes the end DOES justify the means. ppl its war for goodness sakes...what you want the soldiers running around throwing flowers at each other?? ppl are going to HAVE to die ITS WAR!!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

Originally posted by centurion1211


Also, looking at the pictures recently displayed showing hezbollah fighters manning weapons while dressed in civilian clothes begs another couple of questions. Could it be that many (most?) of the adult male 'civilian' casualties are really hezbollah fighters?

Do you have a source for these pictures? I am not saying its not true, I just have not seen anything like this, and I did a search and came up w/ nothing. Thanks

Originally posted by Snazuolu
...if someone went up to my wife and lifted her skirt in public with me standing next to her, guess what.. its gonan be ALOT of force used on that person.

For the purposes of this thread though, you've got to keep the story going.
After this guy lifts up your wife's dress, he stands behind a ten year old girl. You tell him that your going to make him pay and he throws a punch at you from behind the girl.

I promise you that the following would not be your response:

"I appreciate your survival instincts and commend you on your cunning strategy."

You would call the dude a coward.
Everyone around the situation would call the dude a coward.
And everyone around would be cheering like crazy for you to knock the dude out.

Originally posted by marg6043
Hezbollah doesn't have bases, neither camps they have not armed vehicules they are part of the Lebanese people and within the lebanes people . . .

The only way to exterminate Hezbollah like they want is to flaten the Lebanes country and kill all the population.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by marg6043]

I noticed that you no longer have "deny ignorance" on your signature, which is just as well considering the above post. Where do you get this stuff? You're trying to make it sound like (poor) hezbollah is fighting with stick and stones against (monolithic) Israel. Check again, hezbollah is firing thousand of missiles, using mines, and also using anti-tank and other sophisticated weapons.

You also seem to be "denying" the possibility that this whole problem would just go away if hezbollah was not a heavily armed group sitting on Israel's northern border firing rockets at civilians.

Going further, you are also "ignoring" the reality that lebanon has given up control to a key part of their country to a heavily armed group supported by syria and iran. If lebanon is unable or unwilling to exercise their soveriegn rights over their own territory in order to stop this whole thing, then lebanon bears much of the responsibility for what is and has happened.

As a scholar, perhaps a little more research is in order here ...

let me say this , this is me at my nicest persona. I understand its admirable to not wanna kill innocent kids and ppl in general, but hezzie isn't playing fair. so by everyone getting mad at Israel, you're excusing Hezzies actions of pretending to be civilians and using humans as shields to launch their missiles. theres nothign else to say to this. if you blame israel, then you're saying its ok what hezzie is doing. Israel is trying to do the right thing..and their in a difficult spot on 1 hand, yo ugot tree huggers, and the other you got terrorists. maybe the question here is what would YOU do if in charge of Israel??

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Snazuolu]

Snazuolu, so are you saying the end justifies the means?