Death to Everyone!

We simply can't be so politically correct that we ignore the plain truth in front of us. Radical Islam is a major problem worldwide. 9/11, the attack in Spain, the attack in London, the attack in India... I've said many times, not all Musliims are terrorists! But with a billion out there even if 0.5% are, you've still got a major problem. Is knowing that 500,000 people want to kill you really that much more comforting than thinking a billion do?

I completely agree. Radicalization of any degree that leads to innocent deaths is wrong. However, have you stopped to think how many people have died from radical US imposed sanctions? Sanctions are a form of terror that the "civil democratic world" love to throw around. We terrorize a country into doing what we want by fear of sanctions, and sanctions have killed a lot of people.
Just because we dont strap our soldiers to sticks of TNT does not make us free of terror. Our method is just much more political as oppsed to the physical means they use. Either way, its the text-book form of terrorism and both forms need to stop.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
We simply can't be so politically correct that we ignore the plain truth in front of us. Radical Islam is a major problem worldwide.

It's not political correctness gone awry to challenge the statement you made in your first post dj.

If a white supremecist said "Black people are violent criminals" it would be just as accurate as saying

Muslims now are adding the U.N. to the already long list of people they want to kill

Why didnt you just say "Radical Islamists" or more correctly "Some radical Islamists"? I think I know you enough to know you didnt mean to lump all the Islamic world into one murderous group but you have to be careful how you word statements such as you did. It is an ignorant and incendiary World enough as it is without otherwise intelligent people adding fuel to the raging inferno.

Originally posted by Roper


If Allah is on their side why are they not fighting man to man?

Roper

Because the God of the US is in Israel side so that is why Israel can do more damage . . .

I guess the drooling idiots bleating about "radical Islam" missed the fact that according to all news reports, there were substantial numbers of Lebanese Christians participating in the window-breaking and chair-smashing festival at the UN offices?

Could it be that these people are just pissed off that they're being killed off like flies while the UN and all the other powers that be do nothing but issue impotent proclamations? That the US government, which pumps out epochal quantities of hyprocritical rhetoric about human rights and deploring the deaths of civilians, at the same time spares no effort to replenish Israel's stocks of munitions with which to turn little Lebanese kids into scorched paste?

subz, I made a quick comment based on what I was watching on live television news (I think CNN, so you can't blame FOX here ) I was a bit terse and glad we have the ability here to revise and extend our remarks.

Anyway this thread has really turned out much more controversial than I ever meant it to be, I kinda wish a mod would just close it.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Radical Islam is a major problem worldwide. 9/11, the attack in Spain, the attack in

Of couse it is, but you have relatives from/in Lebanon. Then you should know Hezbollah is not a terrorist movement.

Israel is founded on Palestinian soil, but no, Palestine is not allowed to resist. I wonder how you guys would response when you were kicked out of your house to make room for ''Zionists’'. Don't be hypocritic you would resist as well. Quite easy to say from the side line: ''those naughty Arabs''.

Then Israel took over Lebanese soil, and now isn't Hezbollah allowed to fight Israel? Really, the crime of abducting two soldiers is minor compared to the daily Israeli crimes.

But hey, we have a US and Israeli propaganda machine working 24 around the clock and 9 out of 10 persons buy this cheap stuff.

I agree that I think Israel has overreacted in this case, and yes I'm part Lebanese My grandmother talked about Lebanon all the time and how beautiful it was and when the civil war was going on and she was still alive all she would say when the news was reporting about it was "poor Lebanon!"

But Hezbollah is definitely a terrorist group, they have an armed militia occupying the south of Lebanon and attacked Israel on their own initiative. This is unacceptable! If Hezbollah wants to be a political party, they should disarm and turn over all their equipment etc. to the rightfully elected government of Lebanon.

Originally posted by dgtemp
When you look at all the Muslims in this world and you see how many want us dead, its only but a tiny few.
Nothing we can't take care of.

Agree that it is just a few, and those few want each other dead too, and are killing more Iraqi citizens than our troups. But it seems it is a problem that we are having some trouble "taking care of"

They don't hate us, they hate the world they live in and have no choice but to blame us for that world. It is not an option to blame their own leaders or even themselves for not having the courage to change it.

The west did not deliver them unto misery, but the west is the only one they can safely blame for it.

Very true. It gives them a common enemy to blame, but each sect of the terrorist/insurgents really just wants control of Iraq [or which ever country they happen to favor] They would wipe each other out if they could.

But they all love our American Dollars...


Maybe if we stopped buying their oil and switched to better energy sources, sold those resources to the Chinese and Europe [ what a boost for our economy that would be] they wouldn't have money to buy big war toys and WMDs, and would have to go back to swords and knives.

It really bothers me that Saudi people live tax free and all own a Mercedes when I get zapped at the gas pumps. Tell em to stick their oil. Maybe then we can reason with them.

I doubt it though... they have been at this since before Jesus was born... 2000 years is a long time to hold a grudge.

DG
its only but a tiny few.

DG
Its only a tiny few.

DJ
not all Musliims are terrorists! But with a billion out there even if 0.5% are, you've still got a major problem.

I guess I am weird, because when I see words like "its a tiny few", and 0.5%, I am inclined to do a bit of research in an attempt to better understand the conflict.

Perhaps that is what I love about this site the most. It forces me to review things that I would have never thought about and search deeper for more information on both sides of the fence. In that light,kudos to all who post here!

As is usual in these matters, it appears that both of you are somewhat correct.

Here are the results of a survey from Indonisia about Muslim views on violence.

INDONESIA: SURVEY REVEALS MUSLIM VIEWS ON VIOLENCE

Up to 1.3 percent of Indonesian Muslims nationwide admit using violence against people or objects they consider contradictory to their beliefs

Acts of violence in the survey on religion and violence by the Center for Islamic and Social Studies (PPIM) ranged from 0.1 percent of respondents admitting their involvement in demolishing or arson of churches constructed without official permits, to 1.3 percent who committed "intimidation" against those they considered had blasphemed Islam.

So in that respect, DG is correct. Only a tiny bit admit to using violence.

INDONESIA: SURVEY REVEALS MUSLIM VIEWS ON VIOLENCE

The percentage looks very small but it is very high in its real figure when you note that 85 percent, or 200 million, of the country's 230 million population are Muslims

The survey found 43.5 percent of respondents were ready to wage war on threatening non-Muslim groups

40 percent would use violence against those blaspheming Islam and 14.7 percent would tear down churches without official permits.

between 30 percent and 58 percent approved of amputation of the left hand for thieves and the stoning to death of rapists, as well as other tenets of sharia law, and opposed the election of non-Muslims for president.

So in this respect, DJ is right. The actual numbers are not that small. You've still got a major problem.

What did a simultaneous survey discover about the cause of the Muslim attitude toward violence? Is it because of Bush? The U.N.? Israel? Oil?

INDONESIA: SURVEY REVEALS MUSLIM VIEWS ON VIOLENCE

the reasons for the results found Islamic teaching and Islamism made the most significant contributions to violent behavior.

Simplistic understanding of Islamic teachings and the introduction of so-called "yellow books", detailing Islamic law and regulations, in Islamic boarding schools contributed to the emergence of hard-line groups, the issuance of sharia bylaws and sowed hostility toward non-Muslims.

The more Muslims give their support for certain Islamic teachings legitimizing the use of violence, the more violence will happen.

So yes, there is a problem with Muslim violence. Yes it appears to be a small percent of Muslims. Yes, that percent is actually a huge number. Yes, it is mostly Muslim terrorism currently. Yes, somebody is pulling the strings, teaching them from a young age to accept and commit violent acts in the name of religion.

Of course, I have limited time for research. These are just a couple of surveys, and they are not from the ME. I'm sure that other views will be raised, and those views help all of us understand each other, and the world. No?

Originally posted by Mdv2
Then you should know Hezbollah is not a terrorist movement.

Hezbollah pioneered suicide bombing. And by forcing Lebanese to store munitions in their homes, making them targets, is a pretty brutal tactic. I don't imagine that there are civilians lining up to keep explosives under their beds, but what will happen to them if they don't.

I'm off topic.

I think if they should be chanting "death to..." anyone, it should be to anyone who exploits the poverty and ignorance of the people. Religion can do this, governments can do this, industry can do this. But they never know, because they are trapped in a cultural/economic box, and the ones exploiting them for the sake of their own power will never let them see outside of it. What needs to be done is reforming of oppressed societies where they are able to question what they are being fed.

Religion is a perfect example of questioning that which makes no sense. Why can't I question the validity of Islam because it does not seem rational to believe in a being that lives in the sky and rewards with heaven or punishes with hell? As long as I question all faiths, based on logic, there should be no problem. But there is. We've sensitized ourselves into making some things taboo. So we have to be able to say things like "(insert religion here) makes no sense" and it is driving people to do x, y, z, without calling down the wrath of the rest of the world. We have to be able to objectively look at all factors that contribute to the problem - economy, education, and yes, religion. Its safe to say that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have to share the blame at this point, to some degree or another.

Ironically, fundamentalists at least have a leg up on moderates. They have no problem saying that another religion is bad. They believe it because their scriptures confirm it. Moderates call for tolerance, when scrutiny is what is really needed.

What I'm getting at, is that if we want this to stop, all of the influences that control the thought of the population must be removed. For Lebanon, that includes the strong-arm of Hezzbollah, the shadow of Israel, and the money interests of foreign countries. In short, they must have freedom. But since none of these factors will go away on their own, since none will give up their power, influence, or money, then it must be done by force.

Israel is helping out with the Hezzbollah factor, and I hope they are removed completely. But then the world must turn to freeing Lebanon from the other factors. The same goes for all oppressed societies.

I find it very remarkable that no one wants to reply on my ''question'' how you personally would act if your country or neighborhood would be occupied in this case, by Zionists.

Off topic:

There is still people believing the occupation of Palestine is wrong.

Originally posted by Mdv2
I find it very remarkable that no one wants to reply on my ''question'' how you personally would act if your country or neighborhood would be occupied in this case, by Zionists.

What Zionists are occupying Palestine? Here we go again. More generalizations.

Why don't you answer to the people in Lebanon that want Hezbollah out of their country? Israel is doing Lebanon a favor by removing this terrorist organization from their country.

Originally posted by Mdv2
I find it very remarkable that no one wants to reply on my ''question'' how you personally would act if your country or neighborhood would be occupied in this case, by Zionists.

The thing is it's like beating a dead horse. To make a long story short, there was never any real such thing as Palestine, the place wasn't self-governing since the Roman Empire took over the ancient kingdom of Israel/Judea. Arabs from surrounding areas were mainly squatters there until the Zionists came in, bought all the land, and declared themselves a state. Yes, it sounds a bit fishy, but it's in the past...we have to deal the cards we're dealt.

Originally posted by Mdv2
I find it very remarkable that no one wants to reply on my ''question'' how you personally would act if your country or neighborhood would be occupied in this case, by Zionists.

I thought it was rhetorical. All I can answer is from my own frame of reference. If I lived in Lebanon, knowing what I know, I'd be glad for anyone else to invade, just so I wouldn't have to keep an Iranian rocket under my bed, or under my child's bed.

But you can't compare other prospering and somewhat progressive nations to Lebanon. In a country with already established freedoms, any invasion would be met with resistance. Resistance when you have no benefits from your previous government is just nationalism, which is as faulty a reason to fight as religion is.

I would like to see evidence for these claims that Hezbollah is hiding rockets under anyone's beds.

From what I know of Hezbollah's military wing, they are extremely secretive and avoid contact with civilians whenever possible - not out of humanitarianism, but out of fear of collaborators. That doesn't mean they wont pull up into a civilian neighborhood, fire a few rockets, and bugout ASAP, but I am sure they store their weaponry as far from any prying eyes as possible.

Hezbollah's military wing is famous for their low profile - it's been one of the secrets to their success.

[edit on 7/31/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex
I would like to see evidence for these claims that Hezbollah is hiding rockets under anyone's beds.

From what I know of Hezbollah's military wing, they are extremely secretive and avoid contact with civilians whenever possible - not out of humanitarianism, but out of fear of collaborators. That doesn't mean they wont pull up into a civilian neighborhood, fire a few rockets, and bugout ASAP, but I am sure they store their weaponry as far from any prying eyes as possible.

Hezbollah's military wing is famous for their low profile - it's been one of the secrets to their success.

[edit on 7/31/06 by xmotex]

I don't have a smoking gun, but I've heard many rumblings (I'm not expecting anyone to take that for more than what it is). I'm piecing things together from things that I know that they've done, such as fire from within neighborhoods, and applying some tactical practicality.

Its SOP in the middle east to hide weapons in mosques and amongst civilians to use as a PR weaons against the hyper-sensitive West. They can do that and still keep it low profile because of the pro-Hezzbollah enclaves, as well as the intimidation factor amongst the civilians. Also, due to Israeli intelligence assets and technology, the weapons couldn't be too far from the launch points in civilian neighborhoods because not only could Israel be more likely to spot them in transit, but be able to discern the location of the weapons cache.

Also

Well there's the problem for Israel's targeters - these things can be carried from place to place in any truck and stored in any dry hole in the ground - looking at a truck from an aerial drone, there's no way to tell if it's shipping rockets or crates of vegetables. Hence the horrific civilian casualties on Lebanon's roads. As for where the weapons are stored, there's a lot of empty land down there to bury things in, and I suspect the Israeli's bombings of "suspect" civilian sites are missing the rockets entirely.

If you look at the rocket barrages, the number fired have steadily increased since Israel's campaign began - not what you'd expect if Israel's bombing campaign was proving at all effective. I think they're mostly just taking their best guess, taking out a given house, and hoping for the best. I remember the interview with a Lebanese Christian farmer on TV. Two F-16's came over his farm, and with great precision dropped two LGB's - on his well-drilling rigs. PGM's are only effective if your targeting information is accurate. I doubt depriving a farmer of his ability to drill wells to irrigate his fields serves any useful IDF tactical goal. It's just some overworked IDF mission planner looking at a fuzzy, jittery grayscale image from a drone and saying "well, those might be rocket launchers"...

As for what's SOP in the Middle East, Hezbollah are famous for doing things their own way. This isn't Al Quaeda's army of fanatical, unskilled dilletante fanatics we're talking about here, but a large, professional, highly disciplined organization.

So far, it seems they're in large part getting the better of the IDF.
Definitely not SOP for the Middle East

[edit on 7/31/06 by xmotex]

Ya'll might take a look at this.

www.news.com.au...

Roper