50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

PEOPLE,

Hezbollah forces haven't killed any Israeli civilians for more than a decade. Indeed, a 2002 Congressional Research Service report noted, in its analysis of Hezbollah, that “no major terrorist attacks have been attributed to it since 1994.”

This is false!

on March 12, 2002, two Hizbullah terrorists infiltrated northern Israel outside Kibbutz Metzubah, shot at passing cars, and murdered five Israeli civilians and a soldier.

In addition, Hezbullah operatives were captured in Gaza and West Bank assisting Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Another one of Hizbullah's Ploys are that they are resistance fighters but their true colors come out every once in a while.

Originally posted by zappafan1

Don't you think that Israeli children are also indoctrinated into the (false) believe that all palestinians are destined to be suicide bombers?

REPLY: No.... I don't think that's the case at all; they merely have to judge from what they see, and have seen, over the years.

Ahh, now I understand. Israeli children have good judgement, intelligence and perception while Palestinian children are merely mindless, brainwashed fools.

by Beachcoma:
Ahh, now I understand. Israeli children have good judgement, intelligence and perception while Palestinian children are merely mindless, brainwashed fools.

REPLY: You have a very bad habit of trying to put words in the mouths of others.

This is not the only time you have done it. Actually, the part about Palestinian children being brainwashed just might be correct, and you'd have to be mindless to allow a bomb to be strapped to you, and then actually use it on civilians so your family will have lots of money.

I didn't say it...... but thanks...... good points.

So what exactly are you saying then? Because from what I gather, you are saying that the Israeli children are NOT subject to indoctrination. They only have to see the effect themselves whereas Palestinian children are subject to indoctrination only.

I'm sure the Palestinian children can also see the effects themselves i.e. they see their mother/father/siblings/cousins/friends being abused by the IDF.

The Video the Israel's IDF Didn't Want the World to See

So that's indoctrination, huh? And don't go around saying I put words in peoples mouths. I'm only interpreting what I'm reading here.

Edit to add - no, you don't have to be mindless to allow a bomb to be strapped on to you. Just desperate, hopeless and full of hate, anger and the desire for revenge. Basically, nothing to live for.

[edit on 6-8-2006 by Beachcoma]

that's very sad, I hate wars!

JudahMaccabbi, there seems to be a problem in the communication between us. I don’t think you’re actually seeing what I am trying to say on the issue. Hopefully, I’ll be able to clear it up below.

That explains your sympathy for the Arabs. You hear their side of the story without balancing it.

So, when I speak to Arabs I receive an unbalanced view? However, when you speak to them you get the truth? I find this point very interesting. I am glad, I am so naive. However, the point I was making when I mentioned where I live was that I have only met ONE Arab who called for the destruction of Israel out of every Arab that I have met.

Israel has aborted many terrorist attacks planned by Israeli extremists - your statement that Israel has not is wrong.

Actually, what I said was:

If it is expected for the Palestinian Authority to be able to stop terrorist attacks prior to them happening. Then why is it not the same for Israel?

I never claimed, Israel never stopped terrorist attacks. So either you’re intentionally diverting what I am saying to alter the topic or there is some problem in comprehension. However, I will attempt to explain it again.

The Shamgar Commission found that Israel was not to know about the up coming terrorist attacks. Thus, the Israeli Police and Military were unable to stop it. So, if Israel can not know of every single terrorist attacked planned on the Palestinians how can it be expected of the Palestinians to do the same?

Furthermore, how odd is it that we overlook the sustained period of peace from Hamas? From the period of August 2004 to August 2005, they did not attack Israel. A few fringe members did, but the Party was not involved. This is directly the same as to what happened in Britain with the Irish Republican Army. However, the reason we have peace over here was because we didn’t snap back like Israel does. Furthermore, Hamas removed the call for the destruction of Israel [1] They instead are now asking for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

I just assume, it is fine for us to constantly repeat that they don’t’ change? Right? That they never change? That they still want Israel gone/ Where does it say that now? There declaration has been altered and if Israel would give a little they would see things will change.


[1] www.guardian.co.uk...

Odium,

The article you provided is inaccurate in that Hamas only proposed a long term truce and did not respond to what would happen even if Israel withdrew to the 1967 border. They refuse to recognize Israel under any condition which basically means that they have left their intention to destroy israel on the side in the meanwhile.

Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist,

There is a more in depth article about this here
In this article

Mr Meshaal sounded a more strident note in other remarks that were made public yesterday, refusing to drop Hamas's call for armed resistance against Israel.

"We will not stand against the resistance, we will not condemn any operation and will never arrest any mujahed [holy warrior]," he said.

"Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong."

Hamas did not change it just toned itself down as to appease the US and Europe public opinion in their propaganda campaign.

You claim:

From the period of August 2004 to August 2005, they did not attack Israel. A few fringe members did, but the Party was not involved.

But on August 2004 a large Hamas attack occured in Beer sheva and in January 2005 2 attacks on crossings between Gaza to Israel. source
and furthermore the Qassam missile attacks did not stop. Hundred of attacks were staged with this Hamas manufactured weapon and at least 6 lethal attacks during this period Source

Don't be duped by Arab propaganda. Today Lebanese PM Sinora cried infront of the Arab league that Israel killed 41 civilians in a bombing attack on a building. It turns out that only 1 person died there. This thread still reads 50+ dead while 28 bodies were removed from the wreckage. The PLO removed its clause to destroy Israel twice but never actually ratified something to replace their charter. Its all a game. I do not judge words I judge actions. Israel withdrew from Gaza that is an action, Israel withdrew from Nabalus, Ramallah, parts of Hebron, Jenin and the region, Tul karem, Kalquilia. Those are actions. Aside from a short time Netanyahu was PM up to Baraks term Israel was ravaged by terror. That is the actions I judge. Israel eventually got fed up and started to take actions to deal with those terrorists.

Ask your Muslim friends if the Palestinians should have right to return. If they say yes then they are for the destruction of Israel.

JudahMaccabbi, pay attention.

I am not sure how much more I can dumb this down for you. Clearly, you lack the basic knowledge of the history of the Irish Republican Army and the British Government. However, I will try to do this again.

The attacks you speak of, on January the 16th and 18th of 2005. Were conducted by fringe members of Hama and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Resistance Committees. It was not conducted by those who are in control of the party. This is no different to what happend in the United Kingdom with the Irish Republican Army - however, we learned that this fringe elements were best left to the Irish Government to deal with and they did. Israel instead is attacking them when they are trying to stop it from happening.

If Israel can not stop its own citizens from conducted terrorist attacks. How can they expect the Palestinian Authority to do the same? They can't. So instead, when Hamas have tried to stop the terrorist attacks. When they themselves have called for it to end, Israel instead attacks them when a few lunatics who are uncontrollable do attack. Hamas could not have stopped them but instead Israel made the situation even worse.

Israel, can withdraw from as many places as it wants. That does not change it, the thing that changes it is the constant bombings of the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Hamas can not take control nor can they Police the area without being given a chance. They can never gain control of the fringe edges of the terrorist groups, while Israel attacks them.

Find me one example, that will show us otherwise. Because the History in Russia, United Kingdom, South American and the Middle East shows us otherwise. So please, show me where Israeli Policy has worked and if you can't maybe you should start to realise that in the rest of the World it has been negotiation which has worked.

Odium,
pay attention!!!
I will not refer to you in a derogatory manner because I refuse to sink down to that level. I will though try to make you see that you are wrong.
In my previous post I have provided a quote from the Hamas Chief who stated (and I repeat):

Mr Meshaal sounded a more strident note in other remarks that were made public yesterday, refusing to drop Hamas's call for armed resistance against Israel.

"We will not stand against the resistance, we will not condemn any operation and will never arrest any mujahed [holy warrior]," he said.

"Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong."

THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO STOP TERRORISTS. THEY ARE NOT ARRESTING ANYONE!! That is why Israel is forced to respond.

You say

The attacks you speak of, on January the 16th and 18th of 2005. Were conducted by fringe members of Hama and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Resistance Committees. It was not conducted by those who are in control of the party.

Under PLO it was the same song and game. Yassir claimed it is not his people yet he funded them. He said he cannot stop terrorism until Netanyahu created the atmosphere were if he did not act to stop terrorism he would lose. Now if Hamas publicly states we will do nothing to stop the violence then what do you think their own people would think. They will think it is OK to attack, fire rockets etc.
Thats where the IDF comes in.

Do you want an example. Egypt was unwilling to recognize Israel's right to exist prior to 1967. They harrased Israel for years. After they got their asses kicked in 1967 and lost the Sinai and again in 1973 they changed their tune and came forward towards peace in negotiation. Egypt stopped all aggressions by them and from their borders by various Palestinian groups and came in a sincere manner towards peace. With Hamas, they refuse to recognize Israel even after Israeli withdraw (this is according to their own claims), they refuse to stop attacks, they promote attacks and even engage in it.
You are right, at the end it will be through negotiations but the time and the sides needs to be ripe. Hamas is not ripe. You cannot wage war and expect peace or a cessation of violence in parallel.
They need to physically make an effort in stopping the various factions from attacking Israel by arresting them without this there will be no quiet.

Judah, the reason people are rude to you is because of how blind you really are. You refuse to see Israel as doing any harm and when asked a question, you use false examples to justify your view point.

Let's take the example given by you of the Telegraph. It was of an interview conducted before the one by the Guardian. In fact, after they were elected his speech on January the 29th he said that they intended to: "unify the weapons of Palestinian factions, with Palestinian consensus, and form an army like any independent state... an army that protects our people against aggression".

However, let us look at Egypt. That's your example of where Israeli Policy worked.

So let us look at what they did in Egypt.
They gave land back.
They stopped attacking in Egyptian territory and allowed them to stop the terrorism.
They don't counter attack when the odd group fires rockets from their territory.

How is that policy anything like what is going on with Hamas?

Israel stopped bombing Egpyt. They allowed the Egyptian Government to sort out the terrorists themselves. They have not done that with Hamas and you further proove my point by using Egypt.

Odium,

So let us look at what they did in Egypt.
They gave land back.
They stopped attacking in Egyptian territory and allowed them to stop the terrorism.
They don't counter attack when the odd group fires rockets from their territory.

How is that policy anything like what is going on with Hamas?

Israel stopped bombing Egpyt. They allowed the Egyptian Government to sort out the terrorists themselves. They have not done that with Hamas and you further proove my point by using Egypt.

You've got it backwards, the Egyptians first stopped hostilities, Anwar Saadat visited Israel as the first Arab leader to visit Israel. They stopped all terrorist groups from using their country to conduct raids on Israel. They went into negotiation without hostiilites and then after Israel was convinced that Egypts peace gesture was sincere a treaty was signed and land was returned.
Read up on it.

No, JudahMaccabbi it isn't.

Israel has allowed Egypt to deal with any attacks from their territory into Israel on their own. Take for example the March the 6th attacks. Furthermore, Egypt never itself used terrorists as a direct means of attack from their own territories but funded them. This happened during the period and a while after the peace deal was met.

Egypt was still, very much hostile towards Israel in part. The only difference is, Israel didn't respond back with violence. [Along with the fact, Egypt was a Government and Hamas a militia.]

Israel, has never used the Policy they are in Lebanon and making it work. They have always had to give the land back. They have always had to live with hostility from the region and only when they have not responded have things changed.

Jordan, Syria, Lebonan were all the same. Everytime they responded it has made things worse, the less they respond and the more Arabs who see Israel as a Nation who wants peace. The more they get bombed, the more they see family members die, then the more join groups like Hamas with the intent to cause death.

Originally posted by Odium
Israel, has never used the Policy they are in Lebanon and making it work. They have always had to give the land back. They have always had to live with hostility from the region and only when they have not responded have things changed.

I wonder, does that have any bearing on the current situation they're in right now? I bet it does. Think about this from the perspective of a historian for a minute. Israel has always been in a situation of hostilities, you said that much yourself. My question to you is why?

Now I'm sure that you'll respond by saying that it's because of their forceful approach to dealing with their neighbors, but I tend to disagree.

I think it's because they never got the opportunity to follow through with what they had planned because someone kept butting in with international opinions and forces. Since when does the US, or any other country not involved in the conflict for that matter, have the right to tell Israel the way they should be handling the situation?

If anyone had told the US that they shouldn't have gone over and bombed Afghanistan, do you think that would have changed anything? My point with this is that we have no real right to demand that Israel do anything we ask, simply because we aren't there. Plus, there's the added fact that Israel has been very generous towards all of her neighbors in trying to negotiate peace, but how many times can they throw it back in her face before she says enough is enough and just quits? This whole thing has been going on for long enough. I say we let them finish it this time. Maybe then we can have some peace and quiet...

At long last...

TheBorg

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: It is Islam that has declared worldwide war against all infidels; they've been at it for about 1400 years.

First, I would like to ask you to define "infidels" according to Islam. Next I would like to ask you to post the passage both prior and after the text in the Quran that mentions infidels. Next, I would like to ask you to quote Surah 9:11 and Surah 2:62 of the Quran, and still tell me who the "infidels" are in Islam.

Choosing not to do any of these only shows your ignorance on this subject matter.

Odium,

Israel has allowed Egypt to deal with any attacks from their territory into Israel on their own. Take for example the March the 6th attacks. Furthermore, Egypt never itself used terrorists as a direct means of attack from their own territories but funded them. This happened during the period and a while after the peace deal was met.

Could you please expand on this with more information, dates, links to articles. I would like to verify the above before I respond.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
The Video the Israel's IDF Didn't Want the World to See

Beachcoma thanks for that Video. This is typical treatment for those people and its saddening. I have also posted a thread which goes into what you have posted at a slightly deeper level. Its really a shame.

Its about 1hr or so but I think a lot of people will be surprised that the video you posted is not an isolated incident and the reactions of the israelis is not uncommon. They are treated like dogs and vermin. A dog will bite back when his master mistreats him.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

With behaviour like that (The Video the Israel's IDF Didn't Want the World to See) is there any wonder why there is a deep antipathy of Israel in the area? Even here in the United States, which is overwhelmingly pro-Israel, its difficult to miss the arrogance of their behaviour... Is some of it justified? In the face of constant opposition, yes, I really think it is unavoidable, unfortunately, BUT and it is huge cavet, Israel has become its enemies own best recruiter for quite a few years now, and Hezbollah or not, this attack on Lebanon, whom only the most dilberately blind refuse to see, the majority who suffer are the civilians, the non-military, the non-miliant, the non-combatants. And in this act, justified or not, Israel in their arrogance (and why shouldn't they be arrogant, they have the most powerful military in the area, and the most powerful nation on earth as their backer, arms dealer and lap dog?) and heavy handedness, have supplied militants against them for the next generation to come.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by grover]

The last 2 weeks of on-scene reports in Lebanon from the Englishman Robert Fisk, reporting for The Independent newspaper, are now available for free on the newspaper's web site. Here is a quick link to the page with Fisk's reports (the earlier stories, for which you must pay online to read, are marked with a pink logo):

news.independent.co.uk...

A long-time Middle East correspondent for the London Times newspaper until its purchase by Rupert Murdoch began the censorship of his reports, Fisk previously covered many years of fighting in the northern areas of Ireland in both newspaper accounts and a book. He has maintained a home in Lebanon for years, speaks Arabic, but has also reported frequently on events in Israel, sometimes in tandem with his colleagues at the Israeli independent newspaper Haaretz. (www.haaretz.com)

[edit on 8-8-2006 by FutureLibrarian]

[edit on 8-8-2006 by FutureLibrarian]

With behavior like this:



No wonder so many civilians get killed.

Mod Edit: Image Hotlinking – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 8/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Judah-

Link.



Funny how the MSM purposly dodge photos like this, gee I wonder why.

I honestly believe Qana was staged. I mean come on, these folks have gotten caught doctoring photos, gotten caught lying about body counts, so really, how can you trust anything they say, when they are caught in new lies everyday.

Mod Edit: Truncated Link Of Great Length.

[edit on 8/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]