Moderates Stand Up And Be Counted

Originally posted by zenlover28
Subz, do you not consider your sig to boycott Israeli products extreme???

No I do not, if Hezbollah sold things I would want to boycott those too.

Speaking of sigs, youre sig is a very important point.

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation." Horace Porter

If I take a stance that seeks to stop Israel's killing of innocent civilians then I guess thats me being moderate in my moderation. I dont think one would say boycotting something is "extremism" or "radicalism" would you?

If I had a sig that called for killing Israelis, that would be different. But I dont, and I never will.

[edit on 26/7/06 by subz]

No I do not, if Hezbollah sold things I would want to boycott those too.

Speaking of sigs, youre sig is a very important point.

If I take a stance that seeks to stop Israel's killing of innocent civilians then I guess thats me being moderate in my moderation. I dont think one would say boycotting something is "extremism" or "radicalism" would you?

Actually, I think it is extreme. But, that's just my opinion. And hey, it's fine with me however you want to be....just don't expect all Moderates to hold the same opinion as your initial post. Have a nice night.

I will happily stand up and be counted as a moderate.

Extremism in caring for human life above all else is no vice. Moderation in condemnation of those who show utter disregard for loss of civilian lives is no virtue.

Yeah well perhaps I could understand where you all are coming from if Israel was intentionally using innocent civilians as their target. Nope that would be Hammas, Hezbollah and the Jihad who target innocent civilians. Hezbollah if they're so friggin tough needs to stop hiding behind innocent civilians and fight a real war.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Hezbollah if they're so friggin tough needs to stop hiding behind innocent civilians and fight a real war.

If you want to extrapolate that logic to its full extent we'd have the line battles of the American war of Independance If Israel is so friggen tough they wouldnt hide behind armoured personel carriers.

Of course im being facetious and Hezbollah shouldnt jeapordize the security of civilians. But that does not mean Israel is absolved of all responsibilty and can disregard the civilian presence. There are plenty of civilians that have lost their lives in Lebanon as a direct result of Israeli bombardment who were no where near any Hezbollah militants. They had the decidedly bad luck of living near a road, bridge, powerplant or petrol station. All those were bombed by Israel and they had nothing to do with Hezbollah hiding amongst them.

With regards to Hezbollah targeting civilians in its bombing. I read a document that explained their rationale in bombing Haifa. Haifa has an Israeli military base located there as well as being an economic hub of Israel. The Israeli economy is suffering as a consequence of Haifa's economic centers being shut down. To me, that explains Hezbollah's rocket attacks more than simply targetting civilians. Now dont misconstrue this as me condoning Hezbollah's actions, I dont, but it seems like the stance that Hezbollah is simply targetting civilians is yet more propaganda in a sea of propaganda.

[edit on 26/7/06 by subz]

I really don't like the stance that it's ok to let millions of innocent people suffer because two or three soldiers were taken hostage. I would have prefered some diplomacy between Israel and Lebanon before the whole thing started. Now, I wonder why doesn't Israel let people safely evacuate instead of bombing everything that moves. Let the people evacuate southern Lebanon and then the remaining people are more likely to be the fighters. However now the roads and transportation will likely make it hard to evacuate. I'm getting the impression that saving lives or peace is not what those in power are interested in. I suppose this is like watching two dumb bulls fighting it out. Both are stubborn and unrelenting. Please forgive me if I have offended any animals.

Ummm Israel asked people to leave...did they not? They made their intentions quite clear. I even read where they dropped leaflets...don't know how true that is though, so don't quote me on it.

Originally posted by zenlover28
the U.S. is going to support it's interests. Another cold hard fact of life.

US interests? Your position doesnt sound at all moderate. In fact it sounds a lot like the position of the demopublicans that voted to squander US tax dollars for dubious reasons in iraq. Exactly what are these US interests? And what is the Return On Investment (ROI) to the american people for the financial investment in these so called US interests? Surely government financial accountablity must be a moderate position and yet you glibly dismiss all accountability with, "the U.S. is going to support it's interests".

Originally posted by df1
[Your position doesnt sound at all moderate. In fact it sounds a lot like the position of the demopublicans that voted to squander US tax dollars for dubious reasons in iraq.

Did I say that I supported it? Can you people not for two seconds set your own opinions aside and have 'reality checks'? It's really not all that hard to figure out WHY the U.S. gives them foreign aid.

Exactly what are these US interests?

Well, being that Israel is the only democracy located in a very hostile region our interests are naturally to pump them up with money and weapons so they can do the work for us. Would you rather us send our soldiers to Israel to protect them everytime some terrorist decides he's going to bomb a busload of innocent civilians and Israel has a menstrual moment and retaliates? Just how much do you think a permanent U.S. presence over there would cost? Yeah, there is another reality check.

And what is the Return On Investment (ROI) to the american people for the financial investment in these so called US interests?

Trust me, we save tons of money doing it this way.

Surely government financial accountablity must be a moderate position and yet you glibly dismiss all accountability with, "the U.S. is going to support it's interests".

Yes, it will support it's interests and as a United States Citizen, I expect them too.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Well, being that Israel is the only democracy located in a very hostile region our interests are naturally to pump them up with money and weapons so they can do the work for us.

The US government should not be proping any government, democratic or otherwise. Israel looking out for its own defense is not doing any work for americans and americans should not pay for it. Using your logic above the US taxpayers should be proping up Hamas too because after all they were democratically elected by the folks in palestine.

Would you rather us send our soldiers to Israel to protect them everytime some terrorist decides he's going to bomb a busload of innocent civilians and Israel has a menstrual moment and retaliates?

US government options are not limited to using our military to fight for israel or sending them money fight for themselves. Doing nothing is also a valid option. As I stated previously, I do not care if jews and arabs kill each other down to the last woman and child. If that is what they want to do, then let them do it with their own money and weapons. The people in that area of the world will either make peace of their own accord or they will not. US weapons financing only adds fuel to the fire and it does nothing to encourage peace.

Just how much do you think a permanent U.S. presence over there would cost? Yeah, there is another reality check.

Not a dime. Id let them kill each other and let the chips fall where they may. Death and destruction is a very potent reality check. You would think they would figure out that it is bad for both sides by now, but it is obvious to the most casual observer that this not going to happen any time soon.

Trust me, we save tons of money doing it this way.

Trust me? Thats what the demopublicans keep telling us.

Yes, it will support it's interests and as a United States Citizen, I expect them too.

It sounds to me like you believe that our government is being held sufficiently accountable or that you have set the accountability standard far too low.

Apparently Im not a moderate.

Hi i too can be counted as a moderate as the last several days and weeks have changed me for the good.

This sensless violence must stop for the sake of the children on both sides if not this cycle of violence will continue on forever as the children grow up and wish to take revenge for their dead family members, they will never know what peace is

Originally posted by thermopolis

Originally posted by jlc163
There has been plenty of times when Jews were not in the best interest of the "American Government."

While I fully believe men like Hitler need to be stopped, this country didn't want to go to war until Japan bombed us...and then there's enough conspiracy around that to make my head spin. It wasn't in our best interest to fight early on. For us, it was honestly best that we waited as long as we did. How many Jewish lives could we have saved by being there earlier? That's an unanswerable question.

Sorry but you would be wrong...........Ever heard of Lend Lease? How about Flying Tigers................America was "In" the war for many years, they just didn't 'declare" war until Pearl harbor..........

I know about them, I meant as a whole nation's effort, when my grandma started doing a man's job because men couldn't be found...they were all out fighting in WWII. Individuals fight wars without their government being into it up to their necks. I'm also aware of Government funding/wealthy men/business being involved well before we became official. Just like America's help is rather minimal right now...even though we have civilians in that are in both sides of this mess. There's no such thing as absolutely no involvement to severely up some other nation's butt overnight. At this moment you can find similar funding for both sides in America, just as you can in any fight we've been in since our inception as a nation. Point is still valid.

Originally posted by df1
Using your logic above the US taxpayers should be proping up Hamas too because after all they were democratically elected by the folks in palestine.

I take it that you don't think Israel has the right to exist and you obviously support their demise? I mean seriously, come on what do you think would happen to Israel if we didn't help them? Do you think the radicals would just crawl back into their caves and let her exist in peace?

US government options are not limited to using our military to fight for israel or sending them money fight for themselves. Doing nothing is also a valid option.

We're doing nothing now, aren't we? Except of course sending Condi over for the usual going through the motions BS. Really, I just don't know how you have peace talks with terrorist organizations.

As I stated previously, I do not care if jews and arabs kill each other down to the last woman and child. If that is what they want to do, then let them do it with their own money and weapons. The people in that area of the world will either make peace of their own accord or they will not. US weapons financing only adds fuel to the fire and it does nothing to encourage peace.

Ummmm okay. You don't feel that the Nations who harbor and aid terrorists should be held accountable for any of this?

Not a dime. Id let them kill each other and let the chips fall where they may. Death and destruction is a very potent reality check. You would think they would figure out that it is bad for both sides by now, but it is obvious to the most casual observer that this not going to happen any time soon.

You're right...so I say let Israel fight her way to peace. We've prepared her for it...so I say turn her loose and we'll see how quickly minds change about pushing her around anymore.

Trust me? Thats what the demopublicans keep telling us.

Anyone who thinks for themselves can figure out that if we got our military involved every time a situation such as this arises....we'd be bankrupt by now. Don't try to turn this around on me and make me into a Republican. I hold a conservative view on this because I don't live in la la land when it comes to the Middle East.

It sounds to me like you believe that our government is being held sufficiently accountable or that you have set the accountability standard far too low

Apparently Im not a moderate.

Our government is accountable to it's citizens. They have a duty to serve and protect us. That's what they are paid to do. They look out for our best interests and it is our duty as citizens to keep them in check. There are plenty of problems with the government, but you can have problems with them and not be anti-government. IF you are anti government...then NO you're not a moderate. True moderates see the world for what it is...not what they would like it to be...and in doing so they look out for the collective whole....not their personal interests and feelings.

Originally posted by zenlover28
I take it that you don't think Israel has the right to exist and you obviously support their demise?

Israel has a right to exist. And they should also have the right to pay to for their own defense and the right to make peace with their neighbors.

We're doing nothing now, aren't we?

False. 3 billion in US tax dollars are being sent to israel this year. This is far from nothing? Americans would be better served keeping these dollars at home.

Really, I just don't know how you have peace talks with terrorist organizations.

Israel must figure that one out. It is not the US governments problem.

Ummmm okay. You don't feel that the Nations who harbor and aid terrorists should be held accountable for any of this?

Ones mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Our founding fathers would have been labeled terrorists by your standards.

You're right...so I say let Israel fight her way to peace. We've prepared her for it...so I say turn her loose and we'll see how quickly minds change about pushing her around anymore.

I like the way the israeli's wage war and I would do it in the same manner. My opinion is that the israeli's would kick butt without any financial support from the US.

Don't try to turn this around on me and make me into a Republican. I hold a conservative view on this because I don't live in la la land when it comes to the Middle East.

My position is conservative, a doctrine not practiced by republicans and apparently not by you either. Your position makes you a republican, Im not turning you into anything.

IF you are anti government...

Im pro honest and accoutable government. We have neither. If opposing this makes me anti government then so be it.

True moderates see the world for what it is...not what they would like it to be...

This is not being moderate. It is the absense of ideals, a resignation to the way things are and the lack will to challenge the status quo.
.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Ummm Israel asked people to leave...did they not? They made their intentions quite clear. I even read where they dropped leaflets...don't know how true that is though, so don't quote me on it.

People cannot just up and leave you know. Have you ever moved to another country? I have and I can tell you it is very hard to do in the best of circumstances.

For the people who were stuck south of the Litani river their main escape routes were blown up (bridges, roads etc) and the petrol stations were targeted by Israel too. So there was no fuel for their cars. Taxi fares skyrocketed and Israel took to destroying any cars on the road that are fleeing. This is all BEFORE Israel started dropping leaflets to evacuate.

So unless you were lucky enough to have thousands of dollars to hire a taxi for your entire family you were stuck. Then you had to go through the back roads and run the risk of being shot by Israeli attack helicopters.

If you have a magic wand that will instantly teleport people out of harms way in Lebanon then I suggest you share it with them. Did you not see how long it took for foreign nationals to get out of Lebanon WITH the aid of foreign governments? Try having a bit of compassion for those who had no support to evacuate their families and leave every possession they own behind to be blown up by Israel.

[edit on 27/7/06 by subz]

Ohhhhh goodness. Well, geeez i've got two replies to make. I suggest you both prepare yourselves, k?

Okay so I’ve had a nice dinner and lived my life for the night, so now I’m ready to settle down to some fun filled facts. Let’s get ready to RUMBLE. I’m going to address you both in the same post.

First off I would like to begin by saying that this is going to be extremely long winded, so I apologize in advance.

www.washingtonpost.com...

The leader of Hezbollah stated to Israel:

"You wanted an open war. We are heading towards an open war, and we are ready for it,"

Ummmm, but does “open war” not begin by crossing the borders of Israel and capturing two of their soldiers without any provocation whatsoever?

In the speech, Nasrallah struck a more serious tone than he had Wednesday, when he announced the capture of the two Israeli soldiers and insisted they would be freed only in exchange for three Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails. With dramatic phrasing, he said Friday that Lebanese now had two choices: either surrender to Israel's demands or fight with Hezbollah. He renewed a threat to carry the fight deep into Israel, which has so far suffered four dead from the scores of rockets Hezbollah has fired over three days.

So, let’s analyze this here. Hezbollah basically gave Lebanon and ultimatum. Either join them or be occupied by Israel. Who would be the smarter choice here? Israel who treats their Arab nationals with great respect and is nearly ACLU like in protecting their rights as citizens. Or Hezbollah whose strings are pulled by Syria and who I might add have occupied and murdered the Lebanese for decades. Hmmm...gosh that’s a hard choice. But, undoubtedly the Lebanese will choose Hezbollah. Hezbollah’s facade of being protector’s of Lebanon instead of an international terrorist organization with an agenda is getting old. Which is the VERY REASON Israel needs to continue doing what they are doing. To say that Israel did not give the Civilians enough time to get the heck out of there isn’t fair. It’s just not a fair thing to say when Israel DID give warning of what they were intending to do and Hezbollah DID NOT.

"The United Nations' top humanitarian official, Jan Egeland, said Israel's attacks against transportation infrastructure violated international law."

Oh, but it’s not a violation of international law for Hezbollah to fire rockets at innocent Israeli citizens and cross the borders of a sovereign nation and kidnap two of their soldiers. UNACCEPTABLE.

There is so much hypocrisy going on over this issue I could hurl. Prime example: Japan’s announcement that were considering a premptive strike against N. Korea if an attack was imminent. They stated that it would fall within the ‘legal parameters’ of self defense. The international community supports Japan. Has North Korea threatened to use nuclear weapons against Japan? On the contrary, has Iran threatened to use nukes against Israel? Yes. Loud and clear. Hypocrisy.

The international community wants to whine and cry over the loss of Lebanese civilians, but no one thinks about the continuous loss of Israeli civilians. And that is what is sad. It doesn’t matter as long as Israel is sitting over there taking it UP the rear. I never hear a peep out of anyone about that. You only become vocal when they decide to stop taking it UP the rear.

You can call me a Republican all you want too...however, most Republicans I personally know are calling for the U.S. to step in and fight along side of Israel and basically wipe out most of the Middle East. Excluding Bush and Co. who appear to be ticked about Israel’s unilateral decision. So, naaaah I’m definitely not a Repub. And, I’m certainly not a terrorist sympathizer that wishes for terrorist organizations to wipe Israel and the U.S. off the map, so I’m not a Lib either. Israel taking a unilateral approach is the only realistic approach left. And it’s not some paranoid neo-con conspiracy suggesting it. They are doing what all Nations have the right to do. And this puts me in the Middle of the extremism being called for on both sides of the fence. It makes me extremely FAIR on the issue if you want the truth.

Again, if I felt that peace talks would and could work...that would be my approach. However, they’ve failed every time thus far, so the odds are that they unfortunately will not work in the future. There are downfalls to this approach, naturally. But, if a different approach is not tried the resistance against Israel will only continue to grow until finally they will not be able to protect themselves. IF you don’t believe that the radicals would not push the Jews out into the sea if they did not destroy them first...then you’re not facing reality. I can step back look at the big picture and realize that Israel is no Saint. BUT, they don’t even compare to the evil that has terrorized them in the past. Israel has to survive and they need to do what they have to do in order to do that and not worry about what anyone else thinks of them.

The fact that Israel needs financial help from the U.S. in order to accomplish peace is a GIVEN. Israel’s defense needs are great and unemployment is soaring due to the cost of cleaning up the terrorists’ messes over the years. To think that we’re just going to turn our backs on them and not help them when we're basically all the help they have is not only morally and ethically wrong, but it’s just completely irresponsible of the U.S.

This is the third time (I think) that Israel has invaded Lebanon. Why do they continue to do it? Because of cease-fires and peace talks that only allow the terror to eventually realign themselves and gain strength. It is clear that there will never be peace through such means as cease fires and peace talks. Furthermore, Israel should not be asked to just tolerate daily rocket strikes and suicide bombings from whoever because the rest of the world doesn’t want innocent civilians to die on the other side. You can’t claim that Israel has the right to exist, but yet not understand the threat to it’s very existence.

And as far as the BS about “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”...that’s the biggest crock ever. What freedom is Hezbollah fighting Israel for exactly? Think real long and hard before you answer that.

Here's a succinct way we can solve this 'dispute', eh?

Do you think it is acceptable that Israeli civilians are dying?
Do you think it is justifiable at all?

Do you think it is acceptable that Lebanese civilians are dying?
Do you think it is justifiable at all?

That is all, there is a topic of this thread you know. You can post your other views in the multitude of threads that actually pertain to your subject matter.

Subz, I think your use of the word moderation is too narrow but I understand what your saying here.

The criteria is fixed on whether or not people agree with the deaths on both sides. I dont feel moderation covers it.

For me, I am most certainly not moderate. I make a judgement on a situation and decide what is wrong or right based on my own moral fibre. Over the last weeks I have formed my own opinion of this issue and my opinion is constantly evolving.

Of course, by default I am against violence of any kind. Violence begets violence. I, like many others are shocked by the IDF offensive. I feel it is disproportionate and so I have adopted ways to support my view. My sig is an example of this. This is not moderation. This is in fact me banging my drum. Standing up for something I feel to be right.

Anyone who sees it will think whatever they will based on their understanding. The risk of someone giving it a general meaning, an extreme meaning etc.
The sig falls way short. But, what it does project for me is that I oppose the strategies adopted by the IDF and feel there are other ways besides war that can achieve resolution. What it doesnt say is that I am also against the strategies of the Hezbollah.

Call for Hezbollah

I call hezbollah to end the rocket launching into Israel as of this minute.

If these rockets were targeted at the Israeli army, very well. That would be a legitimate defence right now.

But what use is it to launch these rockets haphazardly at the civilian populations of Northern Israel? Is it to scare them into stopping the war? Do you know that Haifa is one of the most pro-peace cities in Israel? These rockets land blindly. Those that don't kill innocent civilians land in empty fields or kill a cow.

Can't you see that this only makes the IDF's argument stronger?
How can we cheer for innocent Israeli deaths and then ask the world to mourn ours?

I'm not saying we should be passive. Fight the IDF to the death.
But don't do what you know is wrong just because it is being done to you

*Apologies, I cannot provide link as it contains graphic images and is against the T & C. If you wish to view this article, then u2u me.

I am against war, period. Perhaps that is idealistic, a utopian delusion? People have said throughout history, war is a necessary evil. Perhaps it is. I would like to believe it isnt. Have the International community exhausted all other alternatives? I feel if the International Community boycotted all involved parties; then it would force them to change. If US didnt supply Israel with missiles, if Iran/Syria didnt supply missiles to Hezbolla... what then?

The real danger now though is the nuclear arsenal. That is a very real threat to every single person on the globe. What do we do about that? No matter where we are on the globe, we are vulnerable. Is there any way to undo the past? Rid the world of the nuclear threat? I guess thats me being idealistic again.

one can only hope!

oh edit to say, I have taken it out of my sig and looking for something that says boycott both parties... is there someone clever enough to make one? like Boycott Israel and Hezbollah?







[edit on 27-7-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by subz
Here's a succinct way we can solve this 'dispute', eh?

Do you think it is acceptable that Israeli civilians are dying?
Do you think it is justifiable at all?

Do you think it is acceptable that Lebanese civilians are dying?
Do you think it is justifiable at all?

That is all, there is a topic of this thread you know. You can post your other views in the multitude of threads that actually pertain to your subject matter.

No, No, No, Yes.

As far as my other points not pertaining to the subject matter...yeah, right...you called for Moderates. They answered. You didn't like some of our answers. So, they're not related to the subject, eh? LOL Don't worry, i'm done with your thread.