Moderates Stand Up And Be Counted

moderates are not the answer either,unless there is a radical change in peoples atitudes by 2008. demacrat or republican,will be one! a union created in hell.and believe me just reading these posts fill me wth a discontent that i have not felt in years!

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
subz, what is your definition of "Moderate"?

For starters I would not be caught dead taking a side in partisan politics. The term "moderate" that I am talking about applies to one's own beliefs. Beliefs that are not radical or extreme in nature.

I am not talking about American politics or partisan politics in the slightest here. I am not American, I am an Englishman living in Australia. I am talking about people who I call moderates who do not believe the killing of innocent civilians is justifiable no matter what reasons are given.

This is in response to the multitude of posts and threads in this new forum that say otherwise. There are dozens and dozens of posts from people who say "Israel is justified in killing Lebanese because they support Hezbollah" or that "Hezbollah is justified in killing Israeli civilians because of how Israel treats Arabs". To me, this runs against my grain completely. I term those kind of statements to be extremist and radical as they run counter to civility and the rule of law.

I am seriously encouraged by most of the posts in here. I guess I needed to be reassured that there are many sane and moderate people left in this World. Because from where I stood, looking at these forums, there are many who are not.

Im with you subz, though i hesitate to call myself a moderate, i do have some extreme views, but they have nothing to do with the death of innocent men women and children.
The pictures of children from both sides of this conflict signing artillery shells and carrying weapons just absolutely appals me. How any sane person could encourage children to be involved in these sorts of things sickens me.
There are some who have posted on this conflict from both sides who seem to think that civilian deaths are deserved or inevitable and therefore justified.
Insanity!!

If you are a grounded, sane, moderate person who does not agree that the deaths of innocent civilians of either Lebanon or Israel is acceptable please post in this thread!

I don't think its acceptable, and thats why I think Israel is justified, indeed, required, to wage war upon lebanon. THere will never be peace there unless:

1. Israel Surrenders and dissolves itself
   
2. The militias dissolve themselves
   
3. The militias destroy Israel
   
4. The Israelis destroy the militias

1,2, & 3 aren't going to happen, 4 is the only option that has much of a chance. THe only other option is for the whole world, including the arab states, to pressure the militias into dissolving and fight against them.

Otherwise, there will allways be militias, in countries like lebanon, that attack israel, and there will allways be people in israel that will respond. Those are simply the facts at hand, the real politics.

Nygdan, if Israel's response includes any action that kills innocent civilians I will never support it. If you think it's justified in any way, shape or form for Israel to kill innocent civilians then you are an extremist, just like Hezbollah.

If Hezbollah hides itself in civilian areas then bad luck, you cannot air strike them. If Hezbollah uses human shields of women and children bad luck you cannot kill them along side the militiamen.

If a criminal takes a hostage do we see the police vapourize the criminal along with the hostage and simply say "well he was a criminal and had to die, it's his fault the hostage died"? Are you telling me police negotiators professions are redundant and that police are justified in killing hostages and innocent bystanders? No sir, that is an extremist view you have there and I want no part of it.

Originally posted by subz
For starters I would not be caught dead taking a side in partisan politics. The term "moderate" that I am talking about applies to one's own beliefs. Beliefs that are not radical or extreme in nature.

Yeah, that's what I thought you were talking about, but I saw that some people were brought up the conservative and liberal issue. Not sure how they misinterpreted your post.

This is in response to the multitude of posts and threads in this new forum that say otherwise. There are dozens and dozens of posts from people who say "Israel is justified in killing Lebanese because they support Hezbollah" or that "Hezbollah is justified in killing Israeli civilians because of how Israel treats Arabs". To me, this runs against my grain completely. I term those kind of statements to be extremist and radical as they run counter to civility and the rule of law.

I'd still like to know where you're seeing these posts at....

Nygdan, if Israel's response includes any action that kills innocent civilians I will never support it. If you think it's justified in any way, shape or form for Israel to kill innocent civilians then you are an extremist, just like Hezbollah.

In our (the allies) quest to rid the world of the Nazis during WW2, thousands of innocent civilians died. Are you saying we should have just let the Nazis do whatever they wanted?
I have yet to see anyone say that killing civilians is justified. All I have seen is people stating that civilian deaths is a horrible by product of war. It is impossible to have a war and not have civilian deaths, that's just not going to happen no matter how bad you want it. If Israel just let Hezbollah to continue to target civilians and do whatever they want, civilians are going to contiune to die. In Israel's trying to stop them, civilians have died. How do you propose Israel stop these terrorists without more civilains dying?

ThatsJustWeird there are plenty of posts that attempt to justify dead Lebanese civilians and Israel's tactics. Im sure if you looked for them you would see them.

You've specifically asked me a few questions and I'll answer them as best I can.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
In our (the allies) quest to rid the world of the Nazis during WW2, thousands of innocent civilians died. Are you saying we should have just let the Nazis do whatever they wanted?

There will always be civilian casualties in wars between nation states, that is the tragedy of war. But events such as the Dresden fire bombings where civilians were targeted are nothing more than acts of terrorism.

The civilian casualties of World War Two are not comparitive to Israel's Lebanese campaign. For starters Israel is not at War with Lebanon it is at War with Hezbollah whom Israel deems a criminal gang (read "terrorist organisation"). Therefore Israel's nationwide strategic bombing campaign in which the vast majority of the 200 - 300 civilian Lebanese have died is not only disproportionate, but completely uncalled for.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
How do you propose Israel stop these terrorists without more civilains dying?

Well as far as reducing the numbers of civilians killed, so far about 15 Israeli citizens have been killed since Israel launched it's campaign against Lebanon. That is with Hezbollah unleashing hundreds of rockets. In the same period of time Israel has killed upwards of 200 to 300 Lebanese civilians.

Therefore if Israel wanted to stop the terrorists without more civilians dying they should immediately cease their strategic bombing of Lebanon. Secondly they should understand why Arabs hate Israel and attempt to reconsile with the moderate Arab populations. Thirdly they should halt all extrajudicial executions and assassinations of Palestinians and Lebanese.

If Israel does that and the religious fundies continue to attack Israel then Israel will find the rest of the World stood shoulder to shoulder with them. Then Israel would be able to launch police operations against the now much reduced amount of people who hate Israel.

Not a quick fix to be sure, but it's not as if they have a choice. If Israel continue on the path they are currently on they will end up alienating the entire Arab world and press vastly more Arab men into extremism than there currently is today.

Originally posted by subz
ThatsJustWeird there are plenty of posts that attempt to justify dead Lebanese civilians and Israel's tactics. Im sure if you looked for them you would see them.

I think you are confusing the fact that people accept the inevitability and unfortunate nature of civilian deaths with justification. Justification implies intent, which some try to pin upon Israel. But it is just not true.

There are other areas of the world where civilian deaths are deliberate, to the point of being classified as genocide. And in Iraq, the number of civilian deaths is now approaching an average of 100 per day.

Well I guess I'll just have to give some airplay to these vile posts then because im pretty much getting accused of making up this stuff.

Originally posted by cavscout
Just as the allies bombed “innocent civilians” in Germany and Japan for the actions of the leaders those “innocents” chose to leave in power, so will any nation’s innocents die when another country gets tired of the military action taken against it by militaries those “innocents” let operate in their territory.

Don’t like it? Well then don’t let people who blow up foreign buses hide in your city.

Innocent Lebanese? Sorry, not in this universe

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Israel has so far flown over 2000 sorties over Lebanon. Bombed countless targets and with 'only' civilian 300 deaths. My guess is that there are less civilian deaths considering that:
1- With militias you never really know who is a civilian and who is a militia man.
2- Lebanese and Hizbullah sources will always scramble the numbers around to suite them.

»Salute Israel for their tactics
There are plenty more in the MEC forum and im not going to bother to quote any more of them.

Just for the record though when people justify the deaths of civilians that does not mean they are targeting civilians it means they think it is OK when considering the overall aim of the bombings. I dont think it is OK hence this whole thread.

I'm a luke warm moderate. I agree and disagree all the time, contrary to popular belief.

Huh? Are you an iguana? Or a chameleon?

Anyway, I personally think it's good for people to have a label that makes them feel warm and fuzzy, and part of a cultured, more civilized group. It's similar to the "enlightened" label that liberals like to wear. I especially like the part whereby Hezbollah can reach a human shield and then be able to call "Olly Olly In Free!". It's all about discourse and understanding.

I'm a Moderate, but I realize that sometimes death happens. As sad as it is, it happens. It's reality and common sense that it will happen and the combination of those two things is what makes a good Moderate, IMO.

Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by thermopolis
Moderates are entirely COWARDS, so standing for anything is impossible. By definition a moderate must find out where everyone else is on a subject then follow..........

Then why bother posting in a thread that is specifically for moderates to respond to? I suggest you start your own thread for your own views instead of hijacking some one elses

MMMM... I don't think you are actually after moderates. You say a moderate cannot agree with Israel, and that a moderate would be horrified at "civilian" deaths. I would say that's actually wrong. See, I am a moderate, slightly slanted to the right and I agree with Israel 110% on there actions.

I think they could do more to prevent civilian casualties, but I don't expect them to not respond to terrorism for fear of killing someone, that defeats the purpose. What you really wanted to hear was liberals or anyone else against the war to speak out about it, so start a liberal thread.

Of course I know you will say I am not a moderate and that I am a blind murder supporting right wing fascist, but this is just one topic. If you want the true moderate view on the war, and not the death is bad liberal or the kill them all conservative, the true moderate would tell you we need to mind our own damn business.

So who are you reaching out to here exactly?

[edit on 7/25/2006 by Rockpuck]

For those of you confused:
A Quiz
On it I'm a sort of Centerist...but almost borderline Liberal.

Quiz
On this I stand somewhere betwin Colin Powell and George Bush Sr.

a quiz
Again, a centerist...though I have scored Totolitarian on that same quiz only 3 months ago. Yes, my personal views on thisng do swing that widely, depending on how I choose to interpret information.

morality quiz
Based on personal Morals. 1 on moral order, -2.5 on moral rules....i.e. moderate liberalism.

(64)another one
Yet another that marks me as: Centrist/ Moderate Conservative

Enterpriser Based on your answers to the questionnaire, you most closely resemble survey respondents within the Enterpriser typology group. This does not mean that you necessarily fit every group characteristic or agree with the group on all issues.
Enterprisers represent 9 percent of the American public, and 10 percent of registered voters.
Basic Description
As in previous studies conducted in 1987, 1994 and 1999, this extremely partisan Republican group’s politics are driven by a belief in the free enterprise system and social values that reflect a conservative agenda. Enterprisers are also the strongest backers of an assertive foreign policy, which includes nearly unanimous support for the war in Iraq and strong support for such anti-terrorism efforts as the Patriot Act.

nother quiz
This time I'm an extremely relaxed Conservative.

This could go on forever...but you get the point. While such tests are not completely consistant with each other, you can still get a good idea of what you are, even if you aren't sure.

And I'm very deciceive and opinionated, in spite of being a middle ground person. A lot of times, being as extreme as some of my opinions are will fix nothing, in fact it harms more than it helps. Moderation is often a form of survival, long-term, at that...so I voice the extreme right-wing or left-wing rhetoric, and go DO something Moderate.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
MMMM... I don't think you are actually after moderates. You say a moderate cannot agree with Israel, and that a moderate would be horrified at "civilian" deaths. I would say that's actually wrong. See, I am a moderate, slightly slanted to the right and I agree with Israel 110% on there actions.

If you think killing 10x to 15x as many innocent Lebanese civilians to stop the killing of Israeli civilians is a moderate solution you are kidding yourself. That is an extremist view point that is at home with some of Hezbollah's ideas on Israel.

[edit on 25/7/06 by subz]

To the Middle East... A Moderate proposal...

[edit on 25/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

So im an extremist because I think Israel should abide by the UN resolution creating it?

You might view being a moderate as "sitting on the fence" but I dont. A moderate view point is believing in the adherence of law, both domestic and international. The very basis of Israel's creation was UN Resolution 181, it also said Jerusalem could not be the capital of Israel. What a rabid extremist I must be to believe Israel should honour that aspect of the resolution.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Okay so i'm just going to go ahead and bite here, but before I do I'd like to know exactly what you are getting at, Subz. And what do you want us to do about it?

Bite? I dont want you bite anything or do anything about it.

If you think the deaths of innocent Israelis and Lebanese is unacceptable and unjustifiable then say so in this thread.

In Middle East politics, a moderate is someone who isn't demanding genocide.