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Originally posted by zappafan1
posted by Spades:
Also, isn't THAT Communism? I mean, in a capitalist society we are supposed to be why are Billionaires being given Billions more by our government? Or is Socialism a good thing when the money doesn't go to the poor who needs it?
REPLY: You have it exactly backwards, and wrong. Communism is where the government owns the corporations, and also has control of all means of production.
The Greenies love the idea of state and federal governments owning "public land", which is unconstitutional
[Congress shall have the power] To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings
The money the "billionaires" received was their money... they earned it!
What you propose is Marxism/Socialism
Social Security is in trouble because, back in the early 70's President Johnson (Dem) took down the wall between the SS "Lockbox" and put all the money into the "General Fund"
Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
There's some good logic to your post, Vagabond, and I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Ray Krock has been dead for more than twenty years.
"....the state redistributing wealth downward, you ought also to object to the state redistributing wealth upward.
".....I don't see why it can't do so for another, provided that said use does not violate some restriction in the Constitution.
The law reduced the obligation and increased the wealth of the already-wealthy; thus, it certainly was a case of the government giving money to the rich.
The law reduced the obligation and increased the wealth of the already-wealthy; thus, it certainly was a case of the government giving money to the rich.
I DO see where you are applying the word "Communism" to what is, in reality, liberalism, in fine fallacious name-calling and guilt-by-association.
".... this action on Johnson's part gave Reagan an opportunity to pull a bait-and-switch, raising Social Security taxes to offset the revenue lost from his income-tax cuts, and continuing to put the money into the general fund.
Thus, what I'll bet you, Zappafan, believe was a tax cut by the Reagan administration was for most Americans actually a tax increase.
After President George W. Bush sent Congress an outline of his tax reform plan on February 8, some critics immediately began to attack it as a return to what they portray as the fiscally irresponsible policies of the Reagan Administration.
According to these commentators, Congress should scale back--if not outright reject--President Bush's tax reform proposals because they are based on a period when the wealthy received excessive tax cuts and revenue was wasted on defense, even though most Americans struggled in poverty.
This is a revisionist view of recent history that ignores reality and denies the fact that President Reagan's sound policies and determination deserve much of the credit for the current economic picture. Congress should embrace President Bush's tax reform plan as a responsible return to the most successful economic policy of the 20th century.
President Ronald Reagan's record includes sweeping economic reforms and deep across-the-board tax cuts, market deregulation, and sound monetary policies to contain inflation. His policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs.
Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:
Total federal revenues doubled from just over $517 billion in 1980 to more than $1 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was a 28 percent increase in revenue.
As a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), federal revenues declined only slightly from 18.9 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 1990.
Revenues from individual income taxes climbed from just over $244 billion in 1980 to nearly $467 billion in 1990. In inflation-adjusted dollars, this amounts to a 25 percent increase.
Contrary to popular myth, while inflation-adjusted defense spending increased by 50 percent between 1980 and 1989, it was curtailed when the Cold War ended and fell by 15 percent between 1989 and 1993. However, means-tested entitlements, which do not include Social Security or Medicare, rose by over 102 percent between 1980 and 1993, and they have continued climbing ever since.
HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT THE FEDERAL TAX BURDEN?
Perhaps the greatest myth concerning the 1980s is that Ronald Reagan slashed taxes so dramatically for the rich that they no longer have paid their fair share. The flaw in this myth is that it mixes tax rates with taxes actually paid and ignores the real trend of taxation:
In 1991, after the Reagan rate cuts were well in place, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in income paid 25 percent of all income taxes; the top 5 percent paid 43 percent; and the bottom 50 percent paid only 5 percent. To suggest that this distribution is unfair because it is too easy on upper-income groups is nothing less than absurd.
The proportion of total income taxes paid by the top 1 percent rose sharply under President Reagan, from 18 percent in 1981 to 28 percent in 1988.
Average effective income tax rates were cut even more for lower-income groups than for higher-income groups. While the average effective tax rate for the top 1 percent fell by 30 percent between 1980 and 1992, and by 35 percent for the top 20 percent of income earners, it fell by 44 percent for the second-highest quintile, 46 percent for the middle quintile, 64 percent for the second-lowest quintile, and 263 percent for the bottom quintile.
These reductions for the lowest-income groups were so large because President Reagan doubled the personal exemption, increased the standard deduction, and tripled the earned income tax credit (EITC), which provides net cash for single-parent families with children at the lowest income levels. These changes eliminated income tax liability altogether for over 4 million lower-income families.
Critics often add in the Social Security payroll tax and argue that the total federal tax burden shifted more to lower-income groups and away from upper-income groups; but President Reagan's changes were in the income tax, not in the Social Security payroll tax. The payroll tax was imposed by proponents of big government over the past 50 years, and it is they, not Ronald Reagan, who should be held accountable for its distributional effects.
Nevertheless, even if one counts the Social Security payroll tax, the share of total federal taxes increased between 1980 and 1989 for the following groups:
For the top 1 percent of taxpayers, from 12.9 percent in 1980 to 15.4 percent in 1989;
For the top 5 percent of taxpayers, from 27.3 percent in 1980 to 30.4 percent in 1989; and
For the top 20 percent of taxpayers, from 56.1 percent in 1980 to 58.6 percent in 1989.
On the other hand, the share of total federal taxes, if one includes the Social Security payroll tax, declined for four groups:
For the second-highest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 22.2 percent in 1980 to 20.8 percent in 1989;
For the middle 20 percent of taxpayers, from 13.2 percent in 1980 to 12.5 percent in 1989;
For the second-lowest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 6.9 percent in 1980 to 6.4 percent in 1989; and
For the lowest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 1.6 percent in 1980 to 1.5 percent in 1989.
Originally posted by dawnstar
drop the minimum wage, and even more people will not be paying taxes!!! increase it a little, and more people will be!
[edit on 26-7-2006 by dawnstar]
. . increased dispersion tends to create opportunities for low productivity workers. Thus, employment prospects for young people and the lower-educated are in influenced to a significant extent by their relative wages . . . and relative-wage inflexibility is likely to have significantly contributed to the concentration of unemployment among certain groups.
Originally posted by dawnstar
by the way, as near as I can tell, there's no one in the US building the Lexus.....although there are a few plants that are making parts for the car.
and ummm....as far as the rich person's mansion, contruction is one of the industries that has been invaded by illegal aliens.....after that, the wages dropped....
I know for a fact that roofers don't make squat. unless of course they're real good and in business roofing the steeples of churches!!!
How can an intelligent person not see the difference between RETURNING someone's money to them
That you can't see the distinction is moot. It only has to come before the Supreme Court for clarification or decision, which unfortunately it probably never will.
My main issue of this is that we no longer control over 500 Million acres of our own land, which includes most every national park, as it is now under the control of UNESCO. Or didn't you know that? Want to see the list?
A-The "rich" ratings go down to around $80K per year
B- No matter how wealthy, there is usually an overpayment to make sure the (illegal) IRS doesn't come calling. So, any overpayment is "the rich" getting their own money back.
C- When taxes are high, "The rich" will not invest their money, or little of it, as the return is low.
Lets see: "Progressive" used to be used as a replacement for the word "communism."
REPLY: Clintons tax hike was the largest in American history, and it was against Social Security recipients.
Originally posted by The Vagabond
You can give Microsoft all the money you want, but they're not going to roll out a computer with even more bells and whistles if there aren't customers inquiring about one, and nobody is going to make that inquiry if they haven't got the money to be in the market for a new computer.
by The Vagabond
You can give Microsoft all the money you want, but they're not going to roll out a computer with even more bells and whistles..."
by Two Steps Forward:
It would help if you would not max out the character length of your posts. When you do, it becomes impossible to cut part of a "quoted" reply without deleting the whole thing. Thanks in advance.
Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I think that the theory behind trickle down economics or supply-side economics was that in a capitalistic society, the more capital that is allowed to remain in the hands of the capitalists means more money will be reinvested in business, which will create more jobs and create opportunities for the rest of society.
by Two Steps Forward:
It would help if you would not max out the character length of your posts. When you do, it becomes impossible to cut part of a "quoted" reply without deleting the whole thing. Thanks in advance.
ALASKA
Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve INSCRIBED 1979
Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve INSCRIBED 1992
ARIZONA
Grand Canyon National Park INSCRIBED 1979
CALIFORNIA
Redwood National Park INSCRIBED 1980
Yosemite National Park INSCRIBED 1984
COLORADO
Mesa Verde National Park INSCRIBED 1978
FLORIDA
Everglades National Park INSCRIBED 1979
ILLINOIS
Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site INSCRIBED 1982
KENTUCKY
Mammoth Cave National Park INSCRIBED 1991
MONTANA
Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park INSCRIBED 1995
NEW JERSEY/NEW YORK
Statue of Liberty National Monument INSCRIBED 1984
NEW MEXICO
Carlsbad Caverns National Park INSCRIBED 1995
Chaco Culture National Historical Park INSCRIBED 1987
Pueblo de Taos INSCRIBED 1992
NORTH CAROLINA/TENNESSEE
Great Smoky Mountains National Park INSCRIBED 1983
PENNSYLVANIA
Independence National Historic Site INSCRIBED 1979
VIRGINIA
Monticello and the University of Virginia INSCRIBED 1987
WASHINGTON
Olympic National Park INSCRIBED 1981
WYOMING/MONTANA
Yellowstone National Park INSCRIBED 1978
Excuse me? Since I was the one talking about "the rich," the only definition of the term that matters here is MINE, bub. You don't TELL me what I MEAN by that term, you ASK me.
Care to explain why you think the IRS is illegal?
"....since World War II, the economy has consistently done BETTER, not worse, when taxes were higher.
"A.... change in tax law that reduced the amount of tax liability (at least a trivial amount) for almost all taxpayers, and reduced it a whole bunch for wealthy people.
"Now -- I don't think that's because taxes stimulate investments; they don't. What I think is that..."
REPLY: Lower taxes ALWAYS results in more spending, by most everyone, including the "rich". And it ALWAYS results in more tax revenue to the government.
Look.... your local grocery store doesn't have sales (rate cuts) to lose money, they do it to make more money, though greater numbers of sales.
Whenever you reduce the cost of any economic activity, there's more of it. Simple economics.
The Kennedy, Reagan and Bush Jr. tax reductions are based on the Laffer Curve and, as an economical strategy (not political), it has worked every time. Talk at you tomorrow. This 13 hour day kicked my butt. Later.
[edit on 27-7-2006 by zappafan1]
[edit on 27-7-2006 by zappafan1]