Who do you think is responsible for this Middle East Mess?

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I will tell you that is a bald faced lie. They may hate the Jews but they don't hate all of the Americans. You watch too much TV (read Israeli propaganda). They want to make it seem like Israel is America's only Mid-East option. People in the ME Love America. The US Government is another story.

www.panix.com...
Here in Afghanistan

www.smh.com.au...
Here in Iraq

images.usatoday.com...
www.paktribune.com...
Here in Pakistan

www.telegraph.co.uk...
www.ynetnews.com...
Here in Iran

www.glocaleye.org...
Here in Eygpt?

web.israelinsider.com...
Here in Gaza

www.tribalmessenger.org...
Here in Bahrain

www.adl.org...
images.usatoday.com...
From the West Bank? Ramallah

Does the Picture Say those 1000 Words???

Ciao

Shane



[edit on 12-8-2006 by Shane]

Originally posted by Shane
Does the Picture Say those 1000 Words???

Ciao

Shane

Like I said they don't hate Americans.Those pictures show Bush, and Israeli flags. I've already said they hate Israel. They also hate the government since they support Israel.

I've been to Egypt and I've been to Lebanon. I am American so i don't have any type of Dual citizenship. I travel with an American passport. When I speak English in those countries their eyes light up and they almost scream if Im from America sometimes. I think either A. You are paying too much attention to Israeli Propaganda or B. You have never been to any Middle Eastern Country aside from Israel to even comment on the matter.

I don't need those propaganda pics that are usually taken after Israel kills a buttload of people or After America invades some Muslim country to know what I've experienced in real life. I've had Villages full of people follow me around because I was American and they were in awe. They know Americans to be kind , generous, proud and a privileged people. So please spare me the Arabs hate Americans routine.

Israel is the direct cause of hatred for America. If we were to cease military support of Israel one day, (I hope that day comes soon), you will see a big turn around in attitude in Middle Eastern countries when they see that we are not playing favorites,playing the double standard and supporting the killing of their bretheren.

Lebanon doesn't get billions in aid every year. Even if Lebanon was cut-off from the meager amount of aid The USA gives to them they would still continue to exist, so I have no need to lie, while Israelis, American jews , US right wing Christians will all exaggaerate because they are terrified of the idea of losing American funding in Israel. Without it they would be down the creek without a paddle and they could no longer practice their ideas of opression , and racism without the free weapons to accompany their killing spree. They'd be throwing rocks and shooting off homemade bombs just like they did back in 1940's in the King David Hotel.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I think either A. You are paying too much attention to Israeli Propaganda or B. You have never been to any Middle Eastern Country aside from Israel to even comment on the matter.

You forgot C

I am looking for Some, Any, Small Bit or at least trying to find, something to at least smile about.

It's a sad enough event in the Mid East, that "Our" (Not yours and mine) bickering about fault does nothing to solve the matter.

The true problem is everyone is an Elephant.

They never forget.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by thelibra

“ . . despite a cowboy president under the delusion that he can solo aggress the entire world and come out on top . . we always prefer a peaceful solution to a violent one. Even if the reasons are largely selfish we don't want our friends and family members to get killed, and we're sick and tired of war there is no shame in desiring a peaceful resolution. [Edited by Don W]

Gosh, TL, I didn’t realize I was living in such a pacific country. Sort of like everyone here is a closet “Quaker?” Heck, since 1945, the US has been engaged in war somewhere almost constantly.

That doesn't mean we like war. Our government also imposes taxes, and we dutifully pay them. It doesn't mean we like them. If you're trying to bait me into some patriotic speech about how America is never in the wrong, and never goes to war, you'll be sadly disappointed.

As for our warlike history, I'll agree, our country (America) was founded on war, and hasn't gone very long without fighting a war since. It doesn't mean we like it. It means people won't quit f---ing with us long enough to leave us alone, or alternately, that we've got madmen in office who, during their terms, are doing everything they can to justify a 20%+GDP military budget.

I love my country as a parent loves their child, but it does not blind me to her wayward faults. That said, at least Americans still have enough of a soul left to be horrified at the slaughter of innocent children, regardless of whether or not they are the enemy's.

Originally posted by donwhite
Q. Do you know - without looking - how many America GIs have been KIA in Iraq as of today? If you honestly do not know, that is a symptom of America’s general indifference to loss of life around the world. [I admit I do not know.]

No, I don't. Neither does anyone outside of the military logistics department or upper brass, because our military doesn't release those numbers. In fact, I believe charges were brought against someone for even taking a photo of the coffins during shipping. I do not personally agree with this policy, it smacks of 1984ism, but I can also see how it would quickly demoralize the nation if we kept score. However, the last estimate I heard placed the American death toll at well over 2,000 and the Iraqi death count at well over 100,000. So you are not too far off in your estimate. I'm not sure what the point of it is, though. We've got a superior army, and such numbers are to be expected. If we were fighting, say, China, I believe you'd see a ratio much closer to 1:1, but you can't expect a 3rd World country to produce any sort of military that can stand up to a 1st World country short of perhaps having a strategist equivolent to Sun Tzu in brilliance. Actually, you'd need someone even better than Sun Tzu, since The Art of War is, I believe, required reading for higher brass in the U.S. military.

Originally posted by donwhite
It is likely for every American killed in Iraq, 100s Iraqis have died, yet, we hear not a whimper from the Oval Office - collateral damage - nor do I see America’s clergy marching on W-DC to stop the slaughter.

What would you have them do at this point? We tried to stop after the fall of Saddham. Bush even declared "Mission Accomplished!" Hooray! We Win!...er... We...win? Guys? We won, right? Why are they still shooting? Didn't we tell them we won? Didn't the insurgents get the memo? Who forgot to send the damn memo???

We don't WANT to be in Iraq. Trust me. Maybe a few crazy-ass mofos want us in Iraq, but the majority of us want to get the hell out and leave the country to its own devices. Unfortunately, anyone who even comes close to trying to talk reasonably about getting out of Iraq is immediately bombarded by "Cut and Run" accusations and they are quickly accused of cowardice and loving terrorists.

That said, it would be just as bad if we DID, in fact, just get up and leave. Why? Because you break it, you buy it. Because of the actions of a few madmen (including some of our own), Iraq has been completely destablized (which is saying a lot considering how bad off it was before). Now our forces are stuck in a country that hates them, locked in a war that their families at home do not believe in, unable to legally voice any of their own feelings on the matter except those that are pre-screened by the Bush administration ahead of time or face being dishonorably discharged at best, or stuck in the brig at worst.

So what would you have us do? We don't want to be there, we can't just up and leave, and anyone who wants to even TALK about a solution is made a political pariah by the current administration. So please, enlighten us all and tell us how to solve the whole kit and kaboodle.

Originally posted by donwhite
In fact, since the current Israeli campaign against Lebanon commenced about a month ago, with the expected 1000 dead Lebanese women and children for each killed Hezbollah type, I have heard nothing. No complaints. In fact, I hear cheers. For Israel.

I included Israel in my whole "Go to Hell" speech. They are no more innocent than the other people in the Middle East. Neither are they any more guilty. All sides have their dead innocents. All sides have partaken in the slaughter of those innocents.

Originally posted by donwhite
I fear you are not looking in the right places, Mr TL. You must be the only peace-monger in America? Hmm?

You are quite right, Don. I am the only peace-monger in America. You found me out. What an acute, unbiased, and completely relevent observation on your part. The entire remaining 295,734,133 Americans are all blood-thirsty warmongers who want nothing more than the destruction of every last human life on Earth, including themselves. In fact, the whole reason we had a Civil War back in 1861 was because we didn't have anyone to fight, so we started a nation-wide scrimmage to keep in practice. If I so much as barely mention that it'd be nice to have peace in the Middle East, I would be strung up by my meat and two veg, and summarily whipped bloody with a whip made of the bones of our fallen enemies until I cried out about how much I love war.

(/sarcasm)

These 3 pages have sown it to be such a complex story. On top I think it is Hez's fault more than Lebanon or Israel. On bottom at the root of it, is as in everthing, hate. And that hate seems to come from Islamic extemist and the more moderate Muslim need to stand up and tell the extremist to sit down and STFU.

Israel is just as the US is and as Islam is( along with every other religion); peace loving. Its when extremist take hold of the religion and manipulate it to their agenda that this stuff starts. Sadly we have entire countries that are teaching and preaching this hate.

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

Originally posted by AlexZello
What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict

reply to post by thelibra

You are quite right, Don. I am the only peace-monger in America. You found me out. What an acute, unbiased, and completely referent observation on your part. The entire remaining 295,734,133 Americans are all blood-thirsty warmongers who want nothing more than the destruction of every last human life on Earth, including themselves. In fact, the whole reason we had a Civil War back in 1861 was because we didn't have anyone to fight, so we started a nation-wide scrimmage to keep in practice. If I so much as barely mention that it'd be nice to have peace in the Middle East, I would be strung up by my meat and two veg, and summarily whipped bloody with a whip made of the bones of our fallen enemies until I cried out about how much I love war. (/sarcasm)

I’ve been away for a week, visiting relatives in one of my not favorite places, a gated community. They actually have a real guard to operate the gate, 24/7 so you know those people are serious. No drive by shootings there! No homeless to wonder at. No teen-age crack dealers running alongside your car. And no pimps or prostitutes to harangue you at the stop signs. Or is cajole a better word? Overheard: "Geez, why don’t those OTHER people live like we do?" WOW! God Bless America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

You are pretty much right-on Mr T/L, about America needing a war in 1861. Our first foreign excursion was to the Barbary Coast in 1807. That is if you discount Benedict Arnold’s failed expedition to conquer Canada in the 1770s. Aside: Did you know Americans were so convinced the Canadians would join us against the Brits, that they wrote it into the Articles of Confederation? See Article XI. Canada acceding to this confederation, and adjoining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same, unless such admission be agreed to by nine States. Followed by the War of 1812. The Mexican War, 1846-48, overlooking the war in Florida, 1820s and the never ending war with the American Indians. And excursions beyond number into the Caribbean and the Central American states. You monkey with America's capitalists and you'll be looking at the business end of a USMC rifle! Don'cha know, Might Makes Right!

But I digress. The Q. is who do I think is responsible for the ME mess? I suppose we’d need to start with the Ottomans when there was NO ME mess. Wikipedia gives 1299 to 1922 as the period of the Ottomans. Wiki goes on to call it a multi-ethnic and multi-religions empire. The Ottoman Empire was, in many respects, an Islamic successor to earlier Mediterranean empires - namely the Roman and Byzantine empires. As we should all know, the Ottomans made a fatal for them decision to join with Germany and the Central Powers in World War One. That was neither irrational nor stupid. Germany had strengthened its commercial ties with the Ottomans in the late 1890s when its navy along with the other great powers, began to shift to oil away from coal as the power source of its warships. The WMDs of the era. By 1895, Germany had begun the Berlin to Baghdad railroad and had promised the Shah of Persia to extend it to Tehran. As the Brits might say, “the game was on!” And OIL was the prize.

By 1922 Britain and France had redrawn the maps of the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia and Southeast Asia. We speak of the Afghanistan and Pakistan border region today as if it was some well defined space but in reality those borders were drawn in London, and not in Kabul or Islamabad. And that for administrative convenience. I do so hate to hear about our soldiers dying in those so-called “border” areas where the inhabitants never utilized the concept of lines drawn on a map. And still do not.

Factoid. Jewish people lived peacefully - or accommodated - under the Ottoman empire for more than six hundred years. It may not have been the Garden of Eden but it sure was not Auschwitz either. We also know (or we should know) it was a fact that on the Iberian peninsula in the time period 711 to 1492 it was the “best of times” for the Jewish inhabitants. Outside of living in Old Judea, life under the Moors was the most beneficial, tranquil and prosperous for the Jewish people anywhere, anytime.

As soon as the Christians expelled the last Muslim from Spain, the persecution of and pogroms for Jews began! Jewish life in Spain was now the “worst of times!” I don’t know why Christians have had it in for Jews - say hated - for more than 1,000 years but all that Euro Christian anti-Jew stuff finally culminated and inspired Adolph Hitler and the Nazis. The Holocaust.

Which more or less brings us to 1948 and the United Nations General Assembly. Lake Success, NY. On May 14, 1948, at the insistence of President Truman and under the guidance of our UN Delegate Eleanor Roosevelt, the UN General Assembly tried its hand at nation building.

White Christians full of remorse over the Holocaust and no doubt feeling a sense of shared guilt, GAVE the Jewish people a homeland. A place where they could presumably be safe from further Christian abuse. But as white people have so often done in the past, we showed no regard for the darker people who already lived in Palestine. Some cartographers in London drew a crooked line on a map and like they had already done in India and Pakistan, they said “Arabs, you take this side and Jews, you take that side” and WE expected it to be all over. It did not work on the subcontinent and it did not work in Palestine.

Which brings me to the question: “Who do you think is responsible for this Middle East Mess?” That is not easy to answer. It would be better to ask who shares the responsibility for the ME mess? Physics tells us it is impossible for two objects to occupy the same space at the same time. We have created an impossible condition that we are now confronting. It is no wonder to me the problem has not been solved. For it is insoluble. In physics and in politics.

OTOH, let us not for one minute think that there is not already an on-going solution in progress to the problem. Once the Jewish people of Israel were about equally divided between the 2 state solution camp (Labor) and the SINGLE state solution camp (Likud). IMO, since the 1967 Six Days War, the struggle for a 2 state solution has been losing. Probably not planned by anyone, it is pure serendipity. Whether there ever was a possibility of a two state solution, I do not know. But today in Israel the so-called LEFT (Labor) which tends to be less bellicose, numbers fewer than 25% of the populace. In the 40 years since 1967, they have lost HALF their numbers. The 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin rang the death knell on the two state solution.

If we - mainly the United States - does nothing, by the end of this century all the Arabs in old Palestine with either be in Gaza or be dead. A Holocaust in reverse.

I’ll leave it there.

[edit on 2/17/2008 by donwhite]

Who's at fault for the mess in the Middle East?

How much time do you have? The list is quite extensive...and covers a whole long range of human history. In dealing with the Middle East, you are dealing with memories of things that happened five years, ten years, 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, 1000 years ago...memories of events still as fresh to these people as if they happened yesterday. They know who's at fault...The Other Guy. That Arab, That Jew, That Christian, That Muslim, That Englishman, That American, That Who The Hell Knows, but it's his fault, I and my people are the innocent victim of countless years of oppression, and hatred. Whether that's actually what happened or not, doesn't enter into the equation in the slightest...or if it does, the poor bastard who brings it up, is soon a non factor, one way or another...BOOM!

Until someone can get them to set aside these memories, there will be no peace, save the peace of the grave. It's not just Muslims, it's not just Jews, it's not just Arabs, Persians, Americans, Europeans, etc... It's every single one of us, and more besides.

So the question isn't really who's to blame, there's plenty of that to go around. God knows that much is true... Instead the question is, what to do to solve it. Let's see, we've tried warfare, several times in fact, hasn't seemed to work, we've tried negotiations, hasn't worked...the ink is hardly dry before the shooting starts again. The only thing I see working is exhaustion, sooner or later, later seems to be the trend though, people are just going to get too tired to go on killing each other over mindless hatred that was ancient before their great-great-ever so many great grandparents were born. It dates from before the founding of Islam, Islam is just another excuse.

I, for one, am tired of having to deal with this mess...even as indirectly as I do. My little brother is over there, right now. For what? That's rhetorical, don't bother answering...power, influence, money, all these, and more.

So step back, and let loose the dogs of war, and let the chips fall where they may...exhaustion will solve the problem. I'm just curious as to how many millions of dead and maimed will finally exhaust our seemingly inexhaustible lust for vengeance upon our enemies, real and imagined. Until that nebulous far off day arrives, the bombs keep falling, the car bombs keep exploding.

God must truly love us, why else hasn't he erased us, and started over? Maybe dogs would do better. They sure as hell couldn't do any worse.

Originally posted by SenHeathen
And that hate seems to come from Islamic extemist and the more moderate Muslim need to stand up and tell the extremist to sit down and STFU.

Problem is nobody seems to listen to the moderate Muslims. Not the Islamophobes, not the extremist Muslims. And moderates hardly get the same amount of PR as the crazy ones in EVERYONE's media. It's a sucky situation.

reply to post by Beachcoma

posted by SenHeathen
And that hate seems to come from Islamic extremists and the more moderate Muslim need to stand up and tell the extremist to sit down and STFU.

posted by Donwhite
It’s pretty easy to say about murderers and suicide bombers that the normal, ordinary people “need to stand up” and for them to tell the armed and deadly insurgents to “STFU!” To even offer that advice makes me think the offer is misguided at best and disingenuous at the worst. It’s really NON advice. It’s a polemic on ALL Muslims, IMO.

posted by Beachcoma
Problem is nobody seems to listen to the moderate Muslims. Not the Islamophobes, not the extremist Muslims. And moderates hardly get the same amount of PR as the crazy ones in EVERYONE'S media. It's a sucky situation.

Yes, the MSM is much to blame for a lot of bad things in the world. Not all, but much. That is why I hate Rupert Murdoch. I hate him NOT because he by himself created this dastardly world of misinformation and outright lies that passes for (FOX) NEWS and even the truth, but because he is so powerful he could do something about correcting that if he was so inclined. Instead he maximizes his profits by the endless hate mongering and spreading of intellectual filth he is noted for. I hate him and all like him. They hold the power in their hands to make a better world but refuse to use it. Dante puts them in the lowest realm of Hell. Too bad I don’t believe that myth.

[edit on 2/17/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by seagull

Instead the question is, what to do to solve it. Let's see, we've tried warfare, several times in fact, hasn't seemed to work, we've tried negotiations, hasn't worked ... the ink is hardly dry before the shooting starts again.

Background. Physiologically both Jews and Arabs are Semitic people. The earliest historical record shows the Semites coming out of the region now called Mesopotamia. 3,500-4,000 years ago. There is no record the Hebrew people were ever in Egypt in any significant numbers. The Jews did not construct the pyramids. An urban legend. Maybe some went to Egypt on a hajj to see the Great Pyramid, a true wonder of the world before there was a people identified as Hebrew.

More recent history - 711 CE/AD to 1922 CE/AD - does not indicate there is an impassable divide or a deep animosity between persons of Jewish ancestry and persons of the same blood line but who adopted the faith of Mohammad in the 7th century. Indeed, Jews have lived in the Old Holy Land as long as records have been kept. But, other people also lived in the same land. The Diaspora of 70 CE/AD related primarily to Jews living around Jerusalem. Even all of those Jews were not expelled from the land. The Diaspora is more fiction than reality. Jews who lived under the Moors - Moroccan Muslims - in what is modern Spain flourished for 700 years. After El Cid the fate of Jews in Spain turned 180 degrees from very GOOD to very BAD.

Much of the animosity today can be dated from the late 19th century as the Zionist Movement grew. Zionism postulates that GOD gave the Jews the Land. And that it is the birth-right of descendants of those early Hebrews to PURIFY the land by removing the NON Jews. That POV was and is held by only a very small number of Jews. Any Arab-Jew animosity caused by Zionism was greatly exacerbated in 1948 when colonial thinking White Europeans and Americans GAVE to the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust about half the land of the Palestine Mandate - the best half. The animosities now existing between Jews and Arabs is really dated from 1948-49.

[edit on 2/17/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


That is certainly the most recent spur to the historic antipathy between the two, I'll grant you that. The hate goes back much further than that, Don. No one side has a claim to innocence, either.

But that's only part of the issue. Though certainly a major one. Arabs have been killing Arabs for quite literally thousands of years. They don't need religion to start killin' on each other. Seemingly most anything will do. Heck, even the Jews were offing each other at some points in their history, though that's going back a ways indeed.

The region, which means so much to so many of these groups, seems destined to always be a flash point for the animosity and hatred that is inculcated into all sides from birth through to death. Hatred for the Other.

I, frankly, don't see a solution that doesn't involve lots, and lots, of people dying. But hopefully, there's some smart yabber, or yabbers, out there who can come up with a solution.

We don't look at the problem as a whole picture. We look at one thing...for example Israels continuing occupation of the Heights. I can see Israel's need for the Golan Heights, its high ground...from there Syria can hit just about every spot in Israel...I quite understand Israels reluctance to give it up...then again I also understand Syria's wanting it back. It did, after all, belong to them for many, many lifetimes of men. How to solve that problem? Make both sides happy? Not a chance in Hell of that happening. Some one's going to be unhappy about it, and given the level of antipathy, war is inevitable. Jerusalem? Good luck solving that one. 3 of the worlds major religions call Jerusalem home, or at least a Major holy city. The conflict dates back over a thousand years. Blood has run deep in the streets. Declare it an open city, an international city maybe? Feasible maybe. Who enforces it? Israel? Egypt? the UN? Switzerland? A combination of nations and religious leaders? No matter what you try, a lot of someones are going to be unhappy...Jews, Muslims, Christians.

The very idea of trying to solve this makes my head hurt. But something else has to be tried. The fundamentalists on all sides are gearing up, I can feel it. Car bombs? Nuclear Weapons? Biological? Chemical? All of these? Something bad is just waiting for an opportunity. I don't know what the solution is, I'm not that smart...but it needs one and soon, 'cause millions of lives around the globe depend upon it.

reply to post by seagull

We don't look at the problem as a whole picture. We look at one thing... for example Israel’s continuing occupation of the Heights. I can see Israel's need for the Golan Heights, its high ground... from there Syria can hit just about every spot in Israel... I quite understand Israel’s reluctance to give it up... then again I also understand Syria's wanting it back. It did, after all, belong to them for many, many lifetimes of men.

I was alive and well in 1948, 1956 and 1967. Pre-1948, many Jews had gone to live in the Land in numerous small kibbutz's or pioneer camps. Advocates of the Zionist movement were able to buy land in the least desirable places, and Jews from abroad were willing to come there to try to make it work. I’m thinking of 1880s to 1930s.

In the case of Golan as you wrote, its elevation gives it command of the Israeli plains all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. From 1948 until 1967, the Syrians periodically fired 5 inch rockets aimed randomly, onto the numerous Jewish settlements or kibbutz’s. Sometimes the rockets would kill or injure the occupants. Most of the time it was just harassment. This was a very strong motive for the Six Days War.

The Golan Heights should be returned to Syria provided Syria would consent to a “de-militarized” zone status for 50 years and allow UN Observers to assure compliance. Modern technology and people on the ground could 100% insure compliance.

reply to post by donwhite


The operative phrase concerning the Golan Heights is "provided Syria is willing". Given the history between the two countries, that's asking a lot, in my humble opinion.

If both sides were willing to negotiate in good faith, the problems concerning the Heights might be solved. Given that there are entrenched "special interest groups" whose power is derived from keeping the region volitile, the odds are slim to none that even in good faith the negotiations would fail.

I hate being a pessimist where this is concerned, because for every failure innocents who want nothing more than to live peaceful lives pay for it with their lives, and the lives of their children. There really are no good guys in this, only ones who are less bad.

reply to post by seagull

If both sides were willing to negotiate in good faith, the problems concerning the Golan Heights might be solved. Given that there are entrenched "special interest groups" whose power is derived from keeping the region volatile, the odds are slim to none that even in good faith the negotiations would fail. [succeed?] I hate being a pessimist where this is concerned . . There really are no good guys in this, only ones who are less bad.

I accept your valuation and conclusion. This is why I have said for years and years that ONLY the US can MAKE peace in the old Palestine Mandate issue. We primarily created this impasse, and it will ultimately be up to us to END it. Osama bin Laden has made it clear that until we put the Muslims back in charge of the Temple Mount, there will be Arab resistance to the US and its client state, Israel.

I really do not understand America’s overt religiosity. Huckabee just ran Romney out of the presidential race by slandering his religion. It worked for Huck or Romney would still be in the race. Before Huck, I never realized being a Baptist was so good and being a Mormon was so bad.

We seem genetically unable to understand why Muslim Arabs feel so strongly about the Temple Mount. We seem genetically unable to understand why young Arabs are willing to die in the cause of freedom from foreigners. We mock those young Muslim men by slandering Islam with the “72 virgins” story which to us is a joke.

Yet, by age 17, three-fourths of America’s young women are neither yet married nor are half still virgins. What kind of religion is this we have, anyway?

Smedley Darlington Butler (1881 - 1940), born in Pennsylvania, and nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" was a Major General in the US Marine Corps. (Major General was the highest USMC rank until 1945 when Lieutenant General was authorized). At the time of his death, Butler was the most decorated Marine in US history (1940). His awards included the Marine Corps Brevet Medal - then it's highest award for valor - and he later won the Congressional Medal of Honor two times. Butler was noted for his outspoken anti-interventionist views, and his book War is a Racket was one of the first describing the workings of the military-industrial complex from the inside. In 1898 when the US declared war on Spain, Butler dropped out of high school to enlist in the MC. Butler lied about his age - he was just 16 years old - in order to secure a commission in the Marines as a second lieutenant.

Butler later became well known for his outspoken lectures against war profiteering and what he viewed as nascent fascism in the US. Butler's most widely quoted statement:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
en.wikipedia.org...

Do you see now why I query, “The US has invaded Haiti more than 10 times, and we occupied Haiti from 1919 to 1933, so how come Haiti has remained the POOREST country in the Western Hemisphere?” A. Haiti is 100% black. It became the first black independent country in 1814 when Haiti defeated Napoleon's Army. Could this be why the US has marginalized Haiti for 193 years? God Bless America.

[edit on 2/23/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


"Succeed" does work better right there doesn't it?

I can't explain to you why America has always had a religious undercurrant, 'cause quite honestly, I don't understand it myself...

But it's most definitely there. It manifests itself in many way, despite the efforts of secularists in Hollywood, MSM, and educational circles. Personally, I think it's a good thing, I know you will in all likelihood disagree to a certain extent. Which is, of course, nothing new for us .

I've never been a big fan of the habit the United States has in intervening in the affairs of other nations, especially now after several years of limited success in Iraq. Some success, not enough.

Haiti? It's a mystery why, other than Papadoc, and babydoc, and all the wannabe clones of those two lovely individuals. It was Papa Doc in Haiti wasn't it? I get these tinpot dictators confused so easily.

The US has a bad history of doing this. Installing rulers we think will serve our best interests, yadda, yadda, and yadda. Yet, again and again, it proves to be a wrong choice. I would think that we'd have learned by now.

Don't think this is a call for a withdrawal from Iraq, though. While I wish we hadn't gone into Iraq, we dare not leave with the job not done. I may wish that we could fence off the region and let them settle it out amongst themselves, but the reality is...we can't. But someone, somewhere, must find a solution. But as long as entities such as Hamas, Hezzbollah, PLO factions, Jewish settlers, and national entities like Syria, Iran, Jordan, Israel, etc... all want different things and are willing to kill each other to achieve these things, there will be no peace.

Don, I know you mentioned that maybe the United States is the only nation that can solve these ongoing conflicts that date from before the founding of our nation, I'm not sure I agree with you.

While we, the US, are respected/feared in the ME, we are not exactly well liked by a vast majority of the countries and entities involved in the strife. Other than impressive power, both economic and militarily, what exactly does the US have to offer? We're neither nuetral nor unbiased. Rightly or wrongly, we tend to side with Israel in these matters. That hasn't been missed by the other side.

Interested to hear your thought as well as those of others herein...

Who knows, maybe President to be Obama will read some of these. Hmm...Sec. of State Seagull....I like it, lol.

reply to post by seagull

I can't explain to you why America has always had a religious undercurrent, 'cause quite honestly, I don't understand it myself... But it's most definitely there. It manifests itself in many way, despite the efforts of secularists in Hollywood, MSM, and educational circles. Personally, I think it's a good thing, I know you will in all likelihood disagree to a certain extent. Which is, of course, nothing new for us . .

Not so much disagreement really. On the whole, I am tolerant of religions. In a case involving a Native American - in WA or OR I believe - who practiced his tribal religion which included smoking peyote to gain entry into a higher level of consciousness, the US Supreme Court said “First Amendment based religious claims cannot overrule general laws of the land.” The Court continued, “If using peyote is banned for everyone, then there will be no religious based exceptions.”

From KY, I’m more familiar with Appalachian snake handlers who also violate a general law but due to their remoteness and unpredictably of the practice, it is nearly impossible to enforce. And neither Mormons nor Muslims can have more than one wife at a time. And husbands cannot beat their wives. Or children.

But those extreme examples pale to the potential for harm exemplified by the young lady at the Department of Justice who got a high level appointment because she was born again and not because she possessed either academic accomplishments or had related experience. John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzales and George W Bush have populated - nay, say overpopulated - the US government with such singularly unqualified people.

Neither do I want public school text books or class curriculum dictated by school board officials who want to advance their own favorite religious stories. Note: this criticism does not apply to main stream religions which recognize the separation of church and state as a valuable civil right.

I particularly do not like “faith based” initiatives for the poor, homeless and pregnant receiving public funds. The Salvation Army, a Protestant church, once required hungry supplicants to attend a half hour religious service - harangue - before being permitted to eat. To me, that shows the SA little to no faith in the message! (What would Jesus have done?) And if the SA was using surplus government food, then it’s a no-no for me.

Enough said.

[edit on 2/23/2008 by donwhite]