Will we ever understand?

one mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist...there is no evil and good in man its all made up!! wake up !!!just imagine fighter planes flying over your house and maybe bombing your neighbor or your family...who would you think was the terrorist...

All cultures indoctrinate their children...if you think otherwise you are a fool.

The big flaw in muaddib's reasoning that renders it null and void, is that it assumes that all the extremes of Islamic culture are universal in Islam in general...there are as many varieties within Islamic culture as in the west. Look at the differences between the French or Irish or Italian or Spanish or German or American for example...they are all pretty much Christian by nature, Protestant or Catholic and are what we think when we say the west...but we don't imagine it as monolithic in nature. The same is true of Islam...few Islamic cultures, mostly African, practice female circumcision...no one culture teaches their children to strap bombs onto their bodies...extremists might but they are not indicitive of Islam in general. Muaddib unfortunately is highly bigoted against Islam...we have had this discussion before and there is no reasoning with him.

In all reality to refuse to at least attempt to understand the other makes the person no better than the one they criticize.

Without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
..............
Twist it how you want. I watched the documentary and heard the pilots speak. The commander told them they may not return. They still did it and they did return. You can also try to look up info on Kamikaze pilots of WWII who were also some underage pilots sent to their deaths.

Pie

Twist all you want?.... the people that are twisting this are those who can't for some unfathomable reason see the difference between indoctrinating children from an early age into believing that the highest deed they can perform is to strap a bomb to their chest and kill as many Israeli, or other infidels as they can, and 18 year olds who decide to join the Armed forces...

The twisting comes from those people who for some reason believe these "real" indoctrinations of children to kill themselves and kill as many other people as possible is no big deal.....

Twisting the topic of this thread comes from people like yourself who are now trying to find an excuse...."oh but kamikazes did it too during WWII".....

so please...don't make any comments about "twisting this topic" because you have been doing a pretty good job of twisting it...

Muaddib
Grover

Granted to both of your posts, yet...

What I was trying to convey is the Radical Islamic Culture. Not the general population of the Middle East.

However, do not for a moment assume that the radical section has no influence over the general population! How else could they recruit so many women and children to die for them.

No there is no correlation between kamikaze pilots and terrorist bombings. Massive difference, but fuel for another thread perhaps?

Semper

Originally posted by Muaddib

The twisting comes from those people who for some reason believe these "real" indoctrinations of children to kill themselves and kill as many other people as possible is no big deal.....

Indoctrinating the children from an early age? This intifada has just recently started..wtf are you talking about. You are and have been trying to make it seem that an entire religion is teaching these things when in fact its a MINORITY of them probably numbering about 350 or less in the past 6 years out of a population of 1Million people, and thats probably a mixture of ones that didn't even end up doing it and are in prisons in Israel. More then likely it is even financialy motivated since half of them are starving to death and some idiot kid figures he will help his family out. I do not agree with it and I surely would never tell my 3 boys to even think of something like that. You are assuming its the parents teaching the kids this stuff, more then likely its some outsider telling the kid he will be a hero for his family and he will give the family 500-1000 if he does the deed for them. Which is probably a small fortune for a poor palestinian family.

Like I said...we are not in their shoes, we don't see what they see, we don't experience what they experience everyday. Its not like they get a normal education like everyone else if they are Bulldozing or dropping bombs on a daily basis so don't expect half of them to be Educated enough to know any better.

And semper:
Why bother placing quotes from theologians about Lieing into a post if you are not intending to imply it? The man is a THEOLOGIAN not a religious leader. His interpretation bears no importance in this topic other then to mislead. Apparently you don't know any Middle easterners other then ones you have interrogated. The Middle easterners I know all discipline their children just like any american Mom or dad...they are late...they get grounded,they get caught smoking...they get grounded, they do bad in school...they get grounded. Just like you and I did as we were growing up. This goes for Palestinians that are living here in the USA as well. When they are in a safe and normalized environment they are like any other parent that loves their children, as a matter of fact, the Maternal bonds in most ME families is probably stronger then some American families.



I guess Israeli settlers are guilty of the same crap..involving children in a protest. I wonder how many Israeli minors are in armed right-wing Israeli settlers Militias?

The most seriously wounded was a child who sustained such serious head injuries that he is now in a coma and cannot breathe on his own. He is attached to a respirator. This indicates pressure in the brain, and potential brain damage, should this child-protestor survive. This might be a good time to say a special prayer for the recovery of this child, Yechiam ben Rachel, as well as all of the wounded defenders of the Land and Jewish Communities of Israel.

Let us bear witness to this barbaric and horrific day in Jewish history. Let us remember that this battle is not just about nine houses in Amona. Let us remember that this is a far greater battle. Let us remember that this battle is between the holy and the profane. This a battle between those who are willing to sacrifice life and limb for the holy land of Israel and those who are willing to give our land to the Arab enemy. This a battle between the forces of Hashem and His holy Torah and between the forces of secularization and liberalism. Let us remember that our only hope, our only savior is Hashem Yisborach. The Almighty G-d of Israel. It is our duty to cleave to Hashem, to ask for His help and to walk in His ways. We ask that Holy One, Blessed Be He, in His mercy grant us the strength and courage to gird our loins and to prepare to defend our faith. And let us bear witness to the beginning of the battle for our very existence as Jews and for the land of Israel.

Defenders of the land, Battle for their existence.Sacrificing Life and Limb. Hmmm all that religious fervor...sound Familiar?BTW these guys were protesting against being removed from their houses in occupied territories by Israeli police forces. I could imagine what it would be like if they were actually fighting against arabs.

Source The very bottom




[edit on 16-7-2006 by ThePieMaN]

[edit on 16-7-2006 by ThePieMaN]

I can not argue your personal experiences Pieman. Those are your experiences.

As for the 350??? Where did that number come from? We have killed more than that in a month in Iraq and it would appear there are several more waiting to take their place.

As for Palistine, Very small section of the Middle East, which is what this thread is about.

Semper

Iraq and Palestine/Israel are the only 2 areas I know of that suicide bombings in the middle east have been employed and to be honest I have not heard of any Iraqi minors being suicide bombers, just in palestine, and Palestine was the only place I could find any hard numbers on minors commiting suicide bombings in the ME.

Originally posted by Techsnow

This brings me to another point Do you even know what the Black Stone of Mecca is? It was a stone that fell from the heavens and given to the world by God... in other words.. it was a stone that fell to Earth from Space. To sum it up the black stone is a meteorite. Yes everday 20 million people on Earth worship a meteorite... very sad. And people really wonder why ET wont make contact?

I don't know where you got this information from but it's wrong.

No muslim worhsips the mecca or the stone.

Mecca is a mosque it's worshiped FROM not AT.

Originally posted by semperfortis


also
Comments from Baghdad Bob,

"In Umm Qasr, the fighting is fierce and we have inflicted many damages. The stupid enemy, the Americans and British, failed completely. They're not making any penetration."
"The Americans are not there. They're not in Baghdad. There are no troops there. Never. They're not at all."
"U.S. forces learned a lesson last night they will never forget. We slaughtered them and will continue to slaughter them."

~~~~~~~~

Bagdad bob is a christian not a muslim :

The role suited his excellent command of English and his ability to present a seemingly-moderate front.

Unusually for a senior Iraqi official, Mr Aziz is a Christian.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Techsnow

Well there we have it. A million + people in the world that pray to a meteorite and try to destroy every religion that isn't theirs. Do you really want this religion to take over the world? I sure would like to see them deal with some ET infidels.

Once again Muslims do not pray to a meteorite or to mecca.

But pray towards Mecca which is the main mosque in the world.

Please stop spreading lies.

Originally posted by iqonx

Originally posted by semperfortis


also
Comments from Baghdad Bob,

"In Umm Qasr, the fighting is fierce and we have inflicted many damages. The stupid enemy, the Americans and British, failed completely. They're not making any penetration."
"The Americans are not there. They're not in Baghdad. There are no troops there. Never. They're not at all."
"U.S. forces learned a lesson last night they will never forget. We slaughtered them and will continue to slaughter them."

~~~~~~~~

Bagdad bob is a christian not a muslim :

The role suited his excellent command of English and his ability to present a seemingly-moderate front.

Unusually for a senior Iraqi official, Mr Aziz is a Christian.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Yet he is from the Middle East, is he not?
That was my point, not whether he was a muslim or christian or the dali lama.

Semper

ps. please refrain from the "LIES" comment. Besides being unnecessary, it is their opinions they are posting here, or if not they may have made a mistake. That does not in anyway make them liars.

S

[edit on 7/16/2006 by semperfortis]

Actually Mecca is a city and the mosque in question has at its center a large stone cube called the kabila (? spelling) and within it is indeed a large black stone that fell from the heavens. It is the axiel point to which all Muslims pray but they do not pray to it. Tradition, older than Islam claims that the Kabila was built by Abraham and that the stone was sent down to him as a sign of God's grace, hense the reverence. In Muhammad's day the Kabila was filled with idols, Muhammad it is said broke them all and threw them out of the kabila except for the black stone, the only occupant in what is mathamatically, a perfect cube.

To any of you who do not know much about religion/symbolism or mythology the Kabila represents the world navel or the center point of the world...for the Greeks it was Mount Olympus, for the Jews it was the Ark of the Covenant and later the temple in Jeusalem, at the birth of Jesus, the manger and later Calvery and so forth, it is not an unusual idea restricted to Islam.

Originally posted by Muaddib
the people that are twisting this are those who can't for some unfathomable reason see the difference between indoctrinating children from an early age into believing that the highest deed they can perform is to strap a bomb to their chest and kill as many Israeli, or other infidels as they can, and 18 year olds who decide to join the Armed forces...

Are you saying that the first time a person hears about the Army or the Military is when they're 18 years old? I don't think so. They (the ones who join at 18 - or used to lie about their age and join at 16 and 17) are INDOCTRINATED as youth to believe that dying for their country is honorable and they will be considered heros. They're taught that strapping themselves into an airplane and bombing as many of the enemy as possible is the highest deed, even if they die in the process.

So that by the time they're old enough to join, they're chomping at the bit to get over there and kill themselves some Arabs (or whomever they are told is the current enemy of the state). Many would join earlier if the Military allowed it. That's how well the indoctrination works. But fear not, we have military schools for them. It's only a matter of time until they can join the real service.

You say the difference is that one is a child and the other is 18... That's just not true. They're BOTH told as children that dying for the cause (whether it be religious or patriotic) is the most honorable death. MANY societies teach their children that. Even Klingons are taught that! Q'Pla!

I understand why you wish to refuse to acknowledge the similarities. Because that makes "us" just as bad as "them" and you can't handle believing that. You're kididng yourself.

Yes, BH

But what WE do not teach, not in any fashion..

Is that it is OK, Acceptable or Honorable to Kill OUR OWN people to make a political statement.

They are killing way more of their own then they are of us. (In Iraq) (Thank Goodness)

Now that's Indoctrination.

And yes, it is Honorable to die for your country. Q'Pla

Semper

So, is that the difference that Mauddib is trying to inform me of? That we're all taught to kill people, it's just we're taught to kill different people? Is that the difference that separates us from these 'barbarians'? Whom we kill?

Originally posted by semperfortis
Yes, BH

But what WE do not teach, not in any fashion..

Is that it is OK, Acceptable or Honorable to Kill OUR OWN people to make a political statement.

They are killing way more of their own then they are of us. (In Iraq) (Thank Goodness)

Now that's Indoctrination.

And yes, it is Honorable to die for your country. Q'Pla

Semper

So?

Like BH said, they're taught to kill. Which is wrong under any circumstances. It's indoctrination on both sides.

Take a look at this cartoon



And another one..




And as for it being honorable to die for your country??? Are you kidding me?? I personally would never do that. I'm not dieing for no country, and I'm not dieing for no Queen (Beatrix). You for one have a country that is practically owned by a few families (of which the majority are European). When you die for you country, you die for them.


In fact, when you die for any country (with a central bank that is linked to them), you die for them.

[edit on 16-7-2006 by TheBandit795]

YES I would die for my country!!!!
A thousand times over. If I would not, I would not still be getting in my uniform each and everyday. (Well not today)

It is because there are those of us that would die for our country that you are able to post your opinion here. (At least in the U.S.)

And BH, Yes to me and most everyone I know, there is a BIG difference.

Semper

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Indoctrinating the children from an early age? This intifada has just recently started..wtf are you talking about.

Really?....

Let's see what I am talking about...

Germany | 11.10.2003
Authorities To Close Muslim School in Bonn

After the King Fahd Academy in Bonn, Germany, came under investigation for alleged ties to the terrorist network al Qaeda, the regional commissioner has threatened to shut down the Saudi Arabian sponsored school.

After a documentary aired on German public television a week ago, interest in the activities at the Arab-language King Fahd Academy in Bonn was heightened. According to the show "Panorama," the school had come under investigation for allegedly harboring ties to the terrorist network al Qaeda and other fundamental Muslim groups believed to operate in Germany. In addition, German security agencies had been reporting a significant influx of radical Islamists to the Bad Godesberg neighborhood in the former German capital where the school is located.

The King Fahd Academy, which is financed by the Saudi King Fahd and offers pupils a diploma modeled on the Saudi Arabian school curriculum, was established in 1994 in order to provide Islam-based instruction to children, whose parents were in Germany only for a short time, such as diplomats. Since its official opening in 1995, the private school has increased enrollment to some 600 pupils, 195 of whom have German citizenship.

School authorities are now alarmed. What initially started out as a recognized alternative for temporary residents in Bonn has now turned into a regular institution for parents who want their children brought up in a strictly Muslim environment. With only one hour of German per week compared to six hours of Arabic and eight hours of religious instruction, the school does little to integrate the children into their German surroundings, where statistics show the majority of them will later reside after graduation.

Both educators and security forces are worried that the school is a breeding ground for Islamic fundamentalism and anti-democratic principles.

www.dw-world.de...

A bit of history:

In February, as part of an ongoing series we have been doing about militant Islam in America, we came upon the activities of Oussama Jammal and the Bridgeview Mosque Foundation in Illinois.

Oussama Jammal is the Mosque's president and Sheikh Jamal Said its Imam, or religious leader. It has a reputation for being a nerve center of Islamist organizing, recruitment and fundraising activity. As a result, it has been under law enforcement scrutiny for over a decade.

Bridgeview has a long history of funding groups like Hamas [In a February 8, 2004 article, the Chicago Tribune listed the following entities as having received substantial funding from Bridgeview: "Al-Aqsa Educational Fund, Benevolence International Foundation, Global Relief Foundation, Holy Land Foundation For Relief And Development, Islamic Association For Palestine, and the Quranic Literacy Institute"] - through a complex arrangement of financial ties provided by organizations like the Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development [formerly the largest Muslim "charitable" foundation in the United States].

The Holy Land Foundation was shut down and had its assets frozen by the Federal government on December 4, 2001, a few months after the 911 attack.

"...the administrative record contains ample evidence that 1. HLF [Holy Land Foundation] has had financial connections to Hamas since its inception in 1989; 2. HLF leaders have been actively involved in various meetings with Hamas leaders; 3. HLF funds Hamas-controlled charitable organizations; 4. HLF provides financial support to the orphans and families of Hamas martyrs and prisoners; 5. Hamas' Jerusalem office acted on behalf of Hamas; and 6. FBI informants reliably reported that HLF funds Hamas..." - from the Dept. of Justice filing in the case of Holy Land Foundation v. Ashcroft.

On the day the doors of HLF were closed, President Bush presented the people's case straightforwardly, detailing where funds raised inside of Bridgeview ended up:

"Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is used by Hamas to support schools and indoctrinate children to grow up into suicide bombers...Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is also used by Hamas to recruit suicide bombers and to support their families."

www.campus-watch.org...

In November 2002 the AMC publicly urged American Muslims to give money to Islamic relief organizations to aid Afghani refugees. Included in the AMC's list of recommended charities was the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF), whose assets had recently been seized by the FBI and the Treasury Department because of the group's alleged activities as a terrorist fund-raising front. "Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is used by Hamas to support schools and indoctrinate children to grow up into suicide bombers," said President Bush. "Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is also used by Hamas to recruit suicide bombers and support their families." The AMC called Bush's action against the HLF "particularly disturbing . . . unjust and counterproductive." The AMC also solicits Muslims to give to the Global Relief Foundation, another charity under U.S. government scrutiny for possible terrorist links.

www.discoverthenetwork.org...

Asians take a closer look at Islamic schools

By Michael Richardson International Herald Tribune

Tuesday, February 12, 2002

Without warning, a phalanx of riot police and plainclothes officers descended on a school for about 200 young children in a lush oil palm estate in the southern Malaysian state of Johor, adjacent to Singapore. The raid, on Jan. 3, led to the closure of the Islamic school, or madrasa, which Malaysian authorities say was linked to a group of Muslim extremists.
.
The school is alleged by officials to have been teaching students to hate the Malaysian government and preparing them to fight a jihad to establish an Islamic state, or theocracy, in Malaysia, where about a third of the 23 million-strong population is non-Muslim.

www.iht.com...

Report Finds Hatred of West, Non-Muslims Pervasive in Official Saudi School Books; Conference Call Set for Feb. 4

2/4/2003

From: Jamie Moore, 703-739-2424, ext 206 Rabab Pettitt, 703-739-2424, ext 208

NEW YORK, Feb. 4 -- A new report released by the American Jewish Committee (AJC) and the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP) shows that official Saudi school books indoctrinate children in hatred of the West, Christians and Jews.

The study offers the most comprehensive survey ever prepared of the official Saudi worldview to which students between the ages of six and 16 are exposed through the medium of subject textbooks. In analyzing the 93 school textbooks published by the Saudi Ministry of Education and in circulation between 1999 and 2002, the report reveals the presence of hatred towards Western civilization and followers of other religions.

www.scienceblog.com...

Textbooks With a Subtext: 'Ahmed Has a Sword'

By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, November 19, 2001; Page A14

KABUL, Afghanistan -- The textbook was meant for 6-year-olds, to teach first-graders the Pashto language of Afghanistan's dominant ethnic group. But like many things under Taliban rule, the book's messages were unmistakably political.

Page four of the textbook teaches the word for sword, as in "Ahmed has a sword. He performs jihad with his sword."

The word on the next page is weapon. "My uncle has a weapon. He performs jihad with his weapon."

"Jihad is an obligation for everyone," the book says on page seven. "Growing a beard is mandatory. My father has a beard."

After gaining control of most of Afghanistan in 1996, the Taliban moved swiftly to impose its rigid brand of Islam -- banning music and television, forcing men to grow beards, and removing women from schools and the workplace. It also quietly began a longer-term program to indoctrinate a new generation of Afghan boys with its uncompromising view of Islam and the world.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Islamic Academy of Florida still teaching kids after instructor/directors are jailed on terrorism charges and use of school for Jihad funding
June 18, 2005

MIM:The Islamic Academy of Florida founded by terrorist operatives Sami Al Arian and Sammeeh Hammoudeh is still open for business despite being directly linked to Jihad funding, which begs the question as to if the graduates will be holding their next school reunion in prison to accomodate their former teachers and administrators now on trial as terrorists.The FBI raided the school and $350,000 in vouchers from the Florida Pride scholarship program were revoked in the belief that the funds were used for the terror activities of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad . According to the indictment, Sami Al Arian gave the address of the IAF to someone who inquired where they could send a contribution to the 'Palestinian cause'.

www.militantislammonitor.org...


I ran out of space, but will continue to provide more evidence as to "what the hell I am talking about"...

Originally posted by semperfortis
And BH, Yes to me and most everyone I know, there is a BIG difference.

And that's what I'm asking... What is the difference? It's a real question, but the only answer I'm getting is "There's a big difference". Well, what is it?

I know you think there's a difference. All I'm asking is to explain that difference to me.

Originally posted by Muaddib
MIM:The Islamic Academy of Florida founded by terrorist operatives Sami Al Arian and Sammeeh Hammoudeh is still open for business despite being directly linked to Jihad funding, which begs the question as to if the graduates will be holding their next school reunion in prison to accomodate their former teachers and administrators now on trial as terrorists.The FBI raided the school and $350,000 in vouchers from the Florida Pride scholarship program were revoked in the belief that the funds were used for the terror activities of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad .


I ran out of space, but will continue to provide more evidence as to "what the hell I am talking about"...

You must quake in your boots each time a muslim school kid walks by you.
"IN THE BELIEF"...wow.
People like you are taking the words FREE and The BRAVE out of the meaning of America.