US Human rights Violations: Prisons!

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
Oft times guards are just as bad as inmates....as evidenced by the results of the Milgram study in the 1970's

Wait a second. That does not follow. The milgram study showed that humans will fall into roles, be adversarial, and can abuse power. It doesn't demonstrate that prison guards are 'often' going to be worse than or just as bad as their inmates. It shows a potential, and it shows us something about human psychology, but I don't think you can reasonably extrapolate from that experiment to make general statements about prison guards like that.


Anyway, most unfortunately, the article doesn't make any sort of recomendations (and doesn't detail any of the abuses for that matter).

I think that, while everyone here has different reasons for what they see wrong with the prison system, everyone agrees that there is a problem with it, and it seems like most of the problems can be resolved, most immediately, by vastly increasing the spending on prisons and the number of prisons.

It even addresses the issue of imprisoning minor drug offenders, as they wouldn't be sent to some horrible over-crowded violent concret block, but rather to a safe, secure, prison.

I have worked in Law Enforcment since 1994 and have toured a few prisons here in California and they truely are a world to themselves, I also have a few friends and neighbors who are Correctional Officers and I can say that I will take my street job over theirs any day.

The things they have to deal with on a daily basis from administration to cons who hate the world and everyone in it are unreal. Prison is Prison it will most likely never change simply because the people involved wont let it ,cons or the state. The vast majority of the inmate population in California are extremely vile individuals that you definitly wouldnt want living in youre neighborhood.

Weather or not they were that way prior to prison is debatable, all I can say is dont let youre heart bleed too much for them since if given the oppertunity you would be their next victim. Im not saying they way our prisons are run and the way Inmates are treated are right , but the majority of the people there dont really deserve our empathy either.

If you want to ask questions to some folks who have been in our prison system aswell as family members and current or former Co's go checkout the "Prison Talk Online" forums , there are alot of good people and great info there

[edit on 13-7-2006 by Candycab]

[edit on 13-7-2006 by Candycab]

Best solution for rapists, child molesters and murderers is a method Soviets pioneered and chinese have mastered: 9mm shot to the back of their neck, dump the bodies into a gravel pit and bulldoze some soil on top. Cost of solution 5$/50 offenders.

Most western prisons are way too comfortable out here prisoners have better living conditions than soldiers... best idea i've heard was to outsource the prison system to Russia, they still have plenty of empty old soviet prisoncamps in Siberia

First of all, I’d like to say that prison policy is primarily driven by litigation. Just like in the regular world, it only takes a few big payouts before policy is changed, sometimes to the detriment of common sense. So when I mention certain things, and I’ll clarify this as I go, some of the changes were made because of lawsuits and complaints from groups like Civil Rights Watch, Amnesty International, ACLU, etc.

One thing that has been touched on is how lopsided the staff to inmate ratio is. How true that is. One statistic has it at a 7 inmates to 1 guard, nationally. In my opinion this is too low because administrative type positions are factored in with the guards working the housing units. I know of one place personally where you have 1 guard supervising up to 80 inmates. It makes sense to hire more staff, but where do you get the money from? Good luck convincing the local tax base that prisoners need more of anything, at the cost of funding schools, roads, libraries, or even bird sanctuaries for that matter. This is because, for the most part, the public sees prisons for what they are: places where people who break the law go. Some might even call them “bad”. Watchdog groups seem to take milder approaches. So to expect the staff to be able to monitor and curtail activity that is natural to the criminal element is overly optimistic.

There was one suggestion that inmates have no contact whatsoever with other inmates, whatsoever. As Intrepid said, this is only reserved for those who are a danger to others, and even then they have time outside of their cells. Also, the watchdog groups are the first ones to complain about this kind of treatment, regardless that it keeps other inmates safer.

The other suggestion posted had to do with creating three different types of prison. There is a process that is in widespread use in the US called objective jail classification. This is a process by which an inmate is screened, his criminal history is reviewed, and his current charges are considered to determine his risk level, both to and from other inmates. This determines where he is housed, which should be amongst other offenders of his own level. This has come about through both common sense, and lawsuits. It is a good practice that should have been instituted by agencies long before, if for no other reason than to save money lost through litigation. I’m not sure what the practice in Canada is, but I imagine it is very similar. So, there are methods by which to segregate violent from non-violent offenders. But there are cracks. One problem is that you have some of the violent housed with the non-violent because there is a differentiation between charges and convictions, other than being in jail for possession of coc aine. What I mean by that is that you can have inmate A who has been charged with 10 rapes and 1 murder, over a period of several years, but have no convictions on his record, who can end up in a less secure area. Why? Because, since they are not convictions, only charges, he is not guilty of them, and legally can not be held in any way to account for them. To any objective observer, this flies in the face of all common sense, but that is the way it is. On the upside, there are usually are overrides to this system, but it requires a lot of documentation and justification.

For the charges of racism in prisons, I’m not sure in which way this allegation is meant. Is the complaint that there are race crimes in prison, or that prisons wish to segregate inmates by race? Well, the two are interrelated, and thanks to the ACLU, this problem will not be solved any time soon. Groups in prison are racially polarized. That’s just the way it is, and they are not particularly tolerant of any other group. By forcing members of separate and violently opposed groups to cohabitate, one is inviting problems. There will be racial friction and violence. Prison is not designed to be a utopian experiment, and one must seriously consider if a member of the Aryan Brotherhood or Latin Kings would actually live in a predominately black neighborhood if they weren’t in jail. And vice versa. This is not how I live my life, but one must look at the practicality of the situation as it applies to the safety of all. Now the ACLU can put a feather in its cap that once again it has thwarted racial injustice, while at the same time it has a new plethora of motions to file regarding uncontrolled violence in prisons.

This gives me cause to believe, that while there are some abuses in prison, watchdog groups are as much of the problem as they are the solution. While they file briefs on behalf of inmates, those in the general public reading the briefs don’t realize that the majority of inmates complaining have nothing else to do with their time. It is almost a hobby for them. For some it is a passion to be a continual thorn in the side of the institution that confines them. The links to the complaints at Wallens Ridge is a good example.

Wallens Ridge is what is considered a Super Maximum Security facility. This is where the worst of the worst go, in an effort to segregate the truly dangerous from the general population. The complaint that inmates only got 100oz of water a day, which by most standards is more than adequate, and more water than the inmate would actually drink anyway, is pretty ridiculous. As well as the only flushing 4 times a day, how many times does one actually have to defecate in one day? Keep in mind that these inmates are in air conditioned facilities, doing little activity to sweat the water out. In the meantime, a very small, rural, and poor community is going through a water shortage. I think there is a moral deficit when you seriously place the comfort, and lets make no mistake here – this is a comfort issue, of ultra violent offenders, above the needs of the community that has to live in the shadow of the facility.

What comes from complaints like this is review, and often litigation, all at the taxpayers expense, to come up with an expensive solution, that doesn’t actually solve anything, because the whole problem is that we are dealing with criminals that live to cause problems to institutions. Why would anyone think that people who live as criminals outside of prison, would not act as criminals inside the system.

As for overcrowding in prisons, I believe this is cause by three things: 1) the prosecution of drug crimes 2) recidivism 3) the influence of lenient sentences. Not to get into a debate on the subject of drugs, this issue has to be re-examined. At least the issue of possession. However, it is a lie to lump drug-related crimes such as stealing in with simple possession. Now it is no longer a victimless crime. At any rate, if there is such a thing as rehabilitation, this is the only instance where it is applicable. Outside of addiction, all crimes are committed by choice. No one made the inmate offend. That leads me to #2. Inmates re-offend. The numbers are so high, that argue that some don’t really wouldn’t make a dent in the prison population. Give them a longer stretch in prison and they can’t re-offend sooner. Harsher sentences also effect #3. If I have the opportunity to rob a store, knowing that I’ll only get a year in prison if I get caught, it may be worth the gamble. Now raise the stakes to 50 years, and maybe I’ll reconsider. Someone can argue the merits of rehabilitation if they want, but personally I see no reason to be concerned about teaching someone who thinks nothing of sticking a gun in a woman’s face for $20 the value of making good choices. We see what kind of choices they make. Nobody made them do it. If that doesn’t reveal the caliber of person, I don’t know what does. If you want to rehab him, fine. Just make sure that your own son or daughter works at the convenience store he frequents when he gets out of prison.

The primary thing to remember is that people in prison aren’t “regular Joe’s” just swept off the street for no reason. They aren’t political dissidents. They broke the law. Part of the consequence is going to jail, and you don’t have to watch Oz to know that it isn’t a fun place. It is part of the choice that every individual has to make when they decide whether or not to commit a crime. But the system does the best it can with what its got, and no one is going to find an outpouring of sympathy for US prisoners by the general public, when the prisoners have regular meals, AC, and color TV. I know many people who have none of these, and the only crime they committed was being poor. And yet they have yet to resort to crime.

First of all I'm a Correctional Officer not a guard thank you very much. I've worked in prisons for over 16 years. The facility I work at has 4 different security levels ranging from max security to min. Inmates enter the system and their needs are assessed as well as any security threats such as membership in gangs level of previous violence and so on. Any inmate who doesn't have at least a high school education is required to get one. They all have the opportunity to work and obtain job training however, many don't bother. I have never observed or heard of torture in our facility or any other facities in this state.

I don't think many of you know what kind of training we receive as corrections professionals so I will explain. First you must have either college or supervisory experience they prefer both. Then you must attend a month long academy where you are taught basic law, first aid, how to deal with mental health issues as well as many other topics. Then you must retrain every year and remain certified in Medic First Aid, self-defense, and fire arms. We also attend training in verbal tactics, intervention techniques and I'm sure you get the picture. We receive 40 hours of training each year as well as short topics during roll call.

Our day to day duties include interacting with inmates most of whom are violent criminals. We are counselors, mail delivery, medics we deal with inmates who have had bad news from home, been served with divorce papers. We also mediate and control disputes between inmates. We are also required to ensure that they receive any special diets, medications necessary. We also have to be current on religious practices and ensure that each inmate who wishes to participate in his chosen faith can. Do you all have any idea how many faiths are in a prison? Answer lots. I've dealt with inmates practicing voodoo to the more mainstream faiths. Never a boring moment. Remember also, we are doing our jobs while surrounded by violent people. Our units typically contain 350 inmates we usually have 3 officers in control booths and 3 officers on the tiers I think we're just a tad outnumbered.

I've been assaulted 3 times since I've worked there one included an elbow to the head cause the inmate hates white women. Ever had human waste of assorted types thrown on you while trying to deliver mail or meds? I have. It isn't fun. Ever had to pick up a co-worker who was so badly injured that he spent 5 weeks in the hospital? I have. While all these things happen when you work corrections you can't retaliate against the inmate who did them once they stop resisting it's over. An inmate can assault some one else then step back raise his hands and it's over. We place him in restraints and take him to seg. Do they stay in Seg or IMU long well that's up to them if they follow the program they progress rapidly and are once again released to general pop.

Inmates who for whatever the reason are in grave danger in main population are placed in Special Housing. Special Housing contains Mental health inmates, sex offenders and inmates who are considered victims. Special Housing is able to provide the same education, recreation, visitation and medical needs as main pop.

So do I torture or otherwise abuse inmates NO!!!! Do I know anyone who has once again NO!!!!!!!!! Is our facility over-crowded; YES. Why is it over-crowded? Well because you the public want to be protected from violent criminals and crime in general but no one wants to pay higher taxes to pay for it. Our inmates are getting younger and younger. Officers don't like that so many of us volunteer in our off-duty time trying to make a difference.

If people have questions that you wish to ask and you promise to listen I will try to answer them.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by gallopinghordes]

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
If people have questions that you wish to ask and you promise to listen I will try to answer them.

Yeah I have a few, in fact lots of them and will address them to both you and Intrepid. Where do you guys hide those tasers? How many grenades you used?
How many inmates yah shot?

Just joking I do not believe those for one minute, however I would like both of you to address these alleged events. Also if you would consider using them as torture?

The human rights violations, as pointed out in the report, also refer to the use of electric stun belts, grenades, and guns; tethers; waist and leg chains; air tasers; and restraint hoods, belts, and beds.

Source

[edit on 7/13/2006 by shots]

I too find these allegations bogus. The problem is not the guards, but overpopulation. I study criminal justice, have taken two corrections classes, Criminal Corrections, and Community Corrections. Both taught by this man.

Professor Davis

Brilliant professor. Has experience as a psychologist at a correctional facility in Georgia. I'll let you read the rest of his credentials. He never told us anything of this nature and he had a good relationship with some of the inmates at his facility. Though he also stated overcrowding of extremely violent people is a problem in our correctional system throughout the US. He shared with us some extremely gruesome stories, that I'll never forget. These people are so violent that they kill for others shoes. I do not believe that such abuses are widespread as the report "claims." But I wont completely discount it either as I'm sure there are some sick individuals working in our correctional facilities.

Originally posted by shots


Just joking

I do not believe those for one minute, however I would like both of you to address these alleged events. Also if you would consider using them as torture?

The human rights violations, as pointed out in the report, also refer to the use of electric stun belts, grenades, and guns; tethers; waist and leg chains; air tasers; and restraint hoods, belts, and beds.

For questions about tasers, there are some posts with information on this thread, as well as the application of less lethal force, though you have to get to page 3.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Keep in mind, that most watchdog groups condemn any use of the items listed, regardless of how they are used.

Originally posted by ludaChris
I do not believe that such abuses are widespread as the report "claims." But I wont completely discount it either as I'm sure there are some sick individuals working in our correctional facilities.

For corruption, the biggies are sex rings and drugs. Here is a link to a recent news article that serves as a good example as what can go on, and also that it is not institutionally acceptable.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

As for your professor meeting some interesting and engaging individuals, I have no doubt that that's true. Not everyone in prison is a monster, but the monsters. An excellent book on the subject of working in a prison is called Newjack, by Ted Connover. This guy was a reporter who lived in Manhattan, and to get his story he worked in Sing Sing for a year. It changed his life, and no matter how bad he wanted to quit he was insisting on sticking it out a full year. It should be required reading for everyone entering the field of corrections, as well as their spouses.

Originally posted by hogtie
Keep in mind, that most watchdog groups condemn any use of the items listed, regardless of how they are used.

Oh I realize that for sure and agree. What I am hoping is since the two I directed the questions at might shed some light as to why some items are used and also get first hand personal opinions on the use to educate everyone reading this thread.

Originally posted by shots

Oh I realize that for sure and agree. What I am hoping is since the two I directed the questions at might shed some light as to why some items are used and also get first hand personal opinions on the use to educate everyone reading this thread.

I posted this before in another thread:

First of all, the proper term is "less-lethal" not "non-lethal". Be it pepper spray, special mutions shotgun rounds, Tasers, what have you, all can potentially cause serious harm. However, the use of firearms, batons, even bare hands can cause more severe and long lasting effects than OC and the Taser. Broken bones, blunt trauma, brain damage, and death are all much more likely when traditional methods of restraining or stopping individuals are used. The whole science of "less-lethal" weapons is driven by law suits evolving from people getting hurt from hands, batons, bullets, etc. Believe it or not, OC and Tasers are much more humane than say... beating someone until they comply. Does anyone think that beating someone until you can cuff them is better than 5 seconds of discomfort?

Now, as for the effects of the Taser, I have been hit with it three times, and know some who have gotten hit with it more. It is manditory to get hit with it (for us) if you are to be certified to carry it. Guess what? We all lived, got up laughing about it (because it was over), and the effects of the Taser are completely gone once the current flow stops. And no, there are no different settings. Only one. And there are two ways to monitor its use. There is a data port where you can plug it into a computer and see when and for how long it was used. Plus there are a blue million little paper markers that are ejected from the cartridge when it is deployed, so that the taser can't be improperly used, then "covered up". Another post was correct when they stated that the amps in the Taser was probably in the mili-amp range. That is correct. The amps are extremely low, because in electrocution, it is the amplitude that kills. Once the Taser is fired, a current is sent to the target for 5 seconds, however it can be turned off sooner. The current is sent in cycles, several a second, which causes exterior muscles to contract and relax with each cycle. It hurts, but that's all. Most of the subjects shot have the current running in a line of about 12 to 20 inches across their bodies. A good example is from the center of the chest to the center of the abdomen. I've had the current flow from finger tip to finger tip, through the width of my chest, as well as from one foot to the opposite hand. I've seen this on others many times, as well. Again, everyone was fine at the end of 5 seconds.

That being said, there some risk with people with heart problems or who are on drugs (especially drugs). But when you are faced with the choice of either shooting a raging behemoth with either a .45 or a Taser, asking them if they have a heart condition first is not a priority. Also, sure Tasers are blamed for deaths, but the fact that people swallow several rocks of crack prior to getting Tased gets little notice, because "death by Taser" makes better headlines. Anyone eats that much crack is going to have some problems with their ticker, Taser or no. And there is some research being done into these deaths, because believe it or not, death hurts the "less-lethal" industries. If you can't step outside the "cops are brutal killers" thing, then think of the corporate greed. Lawsuits cost money. Tasers that kill indiscriminately... baaaad.

And here is some info from Cujo0154:

To anyone who thinks tasers are "evil", consider this: Statistically, the percentage of people who have died from any "less-lethal" weapon deployed by police has not risen. From old straight batons, to stun guns, to chemical agents, to tactical batons, to tasers, the percentages are nearly identical. The same amount of people die in police related "in-custody" incidents no matter what secondary weapon used. So how is it the taser?

Also, how many millions of police officers have been tased in training without report of any serious physical harm? I know for a fact, one of these officers previously had open heart surgury and was not injured by the taser. How can that many people....men and women...young and old....fit or unfit, get tased without incident if the taser is the problem? Are you going to say there is this giant conpsiracy to cover deaths of police officers who were killed in training? Let's be real. And the idea that police shouldn't use tasers on people who are bombed out of their gord on meth is just ignorant. A guy outsizing you already, charging at full speed toward you in a field in the middle of the night, after saying something about killing someone....frankly I don't care what weapon they use at that point, but I bet the taser would be most effective at apprehending a subject without injury to either party(cop or the subject). Police do not get paid to get hurt or get killed. That's why we give them weapons in the first place. They have families to go home to as well.

This all sounds like the arguments against police using chemical agents in the 1980's.
I think some would be well served by reading a few articles about "excited delirium".

As far as the current of a taser: It's .04 Amps. A coffee pot runs on about 5 Amps. A defibrillator has between 80-100 Amps.

And a person "in an induced state of mind" is not a "victim"(that would be a criminal), unless the meth fairy came in his sleep and placed a big bag of "magic pixie dust" under his nose. A taser only has one setting, there is no "high power", or low power, and a taser is same strength as most of the old hand held "stun-guns", just delivered in another manor, and usually spead a little farther between the electrodes. As far as her training, do you know what training she had? I don't think anyone should comment on her training unless they know what her training is, and you, yourself are qualified to say that it was insufficient. Was the suspect trained in snorting meth? poppin "X"?

As far as her having "plenty of time to make up a story", I believe there was a credible witness(the homeowner) at the scene, who confirmed the officer's story. And I'll still take a cops word of 99 percent of the people they deal with. You can't argue with toxicology reports either. Meth and MDMA(X-tacy) kill peolpe every day, whether hey are tased or not.

Bottom line: People are going to die from similar incidents. The idea behind the taser, and any other weopon police use is to limit this to the least possible amount without putting the police officers in any more danger then already exists in the job. Remember, they are still the "good-guys", the ones you hate unless you need to call them. I think its time to start putting the blame more on the the real people at fault. The people snorting the meth, the crack, or whatever. That cop did not ask to get called to the scene that night. She didn't ask this guy to snort the meth, or take the "x". She didn't ask to owner to call, concerned about her horses. She didn't ask the guy to charge her. And I am quite certain she did ask to have to tase the guy either. And she certainly did not ask him to die. If there weren't people doing this stuff, there wouldn't be cops. He is the reason cops are here. And he, HIMSELF, is the reason he is not here anymore.

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
If people have questions that you wish to ask and you promise to listen I will try to answer them.

Yeah I have a few, in fact lots of them and will address them to both you and Intrepid. Where do you guys hide those tasers? How many grenades you used?
How many inmates yah shot?

Just joking

I do not believe those for one minute, however I would like both of you to address these alleged events. Also if you would consider using them as torture?

The human rights violations, as pointed out in the report, also refer to the use of electric stun belts, grenades, and guns; tethers; waist and leg chains; air tasers; and restraint hoods, belts, and beds.

Source

[edit on 7/13/2006 by shots]

First of all we don't have tasers nor grenades therefore the answer is nope never used them.Electric stun belts are used to transport inmates who are considered high risk to the community. We use spit sock to prevent the inmate from spitting on us thereby exposing us to some pretty nasty bugs, I hardly think that is a human rights violation. Waist and leg chains are used for transporting inmates outside the secure facility or for inmates with a history of violent behavior towards staff. By restraint beds do you mean the beds we use to 4 point mentally ill inmates who are trying to harm themselves and others? If so then yes we use them in the hospital under doctor supervision.

I am a tower officer now as I got tired of working in the units and have been one for the past five years no I have never shot an inmate nor so much as had to fire a warning shot. I pray devoutly that it will continue that way. Usually just the presence of an armed officer will be an effective deterrant.

As far as torture goes that question verges on the insulting. If I were to be so immoral as to do such a thing several things would happen, arrest, proscution, prision and the inmate suing me in civil court.

I hope I've answered your questions completly.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by gallopinghordes]

Thanks for the reply gallopinghordes. Yes you did answer my questions and frankly the answers you gave were what I thought the answers would be.

To be honest I never for one minute put any stock in these allegations and have felt for years these so called human rights activists are nothing but hot air looking for an excuse to sue.

As for your question on the beds, I was not even aware there were different types

Now if it were up to me, I would round up all the activists and ship them off to Russia, China, or NK and put them in a lock up there so they can find out what real torture is like. I hear all three still use rubber hoses

Do you really think the US gives 2 hoots to what the U.N. Says, they went against what the UN had to saybefore with regards to the Iraq War, The US thinks the UN is disfunctional, and I for one agree with them.

So much for the US having a morale standing in the World if an organisation like the UN slaps it down with a report on their Human rights failures.

Do you see Bush running to the UN and asking for forgiveness???


Ahahaha, you got to be joking

Frankly shots I wasn't aware of any different types either. We have an inmate population of over 2,000 and only have one 4 point bed so as you can tell we really use it alot lol.

I'm proud of what I do it's a difficult job done under difficult circumstances but we do it very well. We haven't had a major incident since the 1970's. That is an excellent record.

If you all could meet my co-workers you would be impressed they are a great group of people by in large. Of course, as with any large group of people there are the ones who aren't up to par but they typically don't last long. Trouble makers we don't need.

The only problem with prison is putting non violent offenders in with rapists and murderers. Smoking pot should not mean more or as much jail time as a rapist... Otherwise the uglieness of prison is a deterent. If there was no Jail time everyone would do anything they wanted. Its the fear of jail time that keeps rational people from acting on impulse.

Without jails what do we do with obviously violent f'd up people?

GallopingHordes

Way to go!!!
Excellent post and we out here are proud of you and what you do.

Keep up the good works my friend..

Semper

gallopinghordes,

Somehow I missed your long post.

You put it perfectly.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by hogtie]