We ARE winning the war on terrorism!

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
There specific instances in history when terror campaigns by a given organization were halted.

Hi Doc, good post.

I would argue, however, that the struggle in Northern Ireland is, in fact, being won by the terrorists, if you want to put it in a win-lose context. Interestingly, when we speak of Irish terrorists here, I am presuming most mean Irish Catholic terrorists even though, I imagine, there are many in Ireland who would deem the 'Brits' and their Nationalist supporters to be the real terrorists on the Ulster stage.

It seems that the current situation in Northern Ireland is leading towards a, hopefully, relatively low key withdrawl, and a transfer of power that does not involve too much loss of face to the British. There is no victorious sense of 'job done' from the British side where Ulster is concerned.

This has been brought about, firstly, by the realisation that the British army were unable to engae the IRA on their own terms. Due to political and the obvious PR problems, the British army could not employ all the tools they believed neccesary to defeat the IRA. As a result, the 'provos' were able to sustain the 'war' indefinitely.

This, coupled with the facts that Sinn Fein have been able to evolve their political strategies and the inevitable demographic change towards a Catholic majority, has made it extremely difficult for Britain to justify a continuation of the conflict.

Basically, the IRA stalemated the British and have used politics and an increasingly sympathetic electorate to instigate the beginnings of a process that could very well lead to the fulfillment of their demands.

I suppose one could say that it was indeed a 'hearts and minds' strategy that eventually lead to cessation of large scale terrorist action in NI, only it was the 'bad guys'' strategy that appears to be the prevalent one.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by KhieuSamphan]

Yeah Dr. that was a good post. But I don't think I would call the Geronimo campaign "terrorist", "guerilla" maybe. Not to sure about Sr. Villa either.

The old cliche "one mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter" seems apropos in many cases.

The funny thing (i think lots of things are funny when others dont) here is:

We stated that we were winning the war on drugs, not when we defeated drugs, but when we took over the supply... and therefore, could control the dispersal...
see
drug smuggling and the shrubs...

so, in effect, that is the only way that a agency can claim a true "win" in a ambigious war like this one... by controlling all the elements...

so if we are winning the war on terror, it means that we are controlling all the terrorists..

also, winning the war on terror is impossible otherwise, because if fought traditionally (our present method), then Dgtempes statement is totally accurate...
Kill one, a thousand more show up...

all we are doing now is making more of the little buggers... we kill one, and all his relatives sign up as replacements...
worse than cockroaches IMHO...

We have got to fight this war in a sane manner... IF we want to win...(ask youself if our leaders really do though)

we must take their reason for fighting away, and then take all the reasons to die a martyrs death away (a few exposures of the scandals and sell outs within Islamic leadership should do it).
then we give them something to actually live for... (a decent promise at a non-meddled life)

because the most dangerous man in the world, is one with nothing to lose...

and we keep taking the scraps that keep them living, everytime we blindly support Isreal, and everytime we ignore our leaderships criminal acts regarding foreign policy. Not saying we should cowtow to them, or give in, but we need to give reasonable response to actions, instead of giving them more reasons to act...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

also, winning the war on terror is impossible otherwise, because if fought traditionally (our present method), then Dgtempes statement is totally accurate...
Kill one, a thousand more show up...

I continue to disagree with that stance, for the reasons I've already cited. Nothing is "impossible;" the likelyhood of success depends on a thousand factors, not all of which are in human hands. Crop failures and drought cycles, religious and demographic trends, all of these issues factor in to the final equation. I still say that Maciavelli and Sun Tsu got it right. Success depends on being more motivated than your opponent, and seizing victory before the combatants meet in battle.

all we are doing now is making more of the little buggers... we kill one, and all his relatives sign up as replacements...worse than cockroaches IMHO...

I believe that Islamic radical groups throughout the middle east are having a much more difficult time finding new recruits now than they were even a year ago.

We have got to fight this war in a sane manner... IF we want to win...(ask youself if our leaders really do though)

Can you think of a single instance in which a nation's leadership fought a war with the intention of losing???? I mean, I know you despise them and all, but seriously . . .

we must take their reason for fighting away, and then take all the reasons to die a martyrs death away (a few exposures of the scandals and sell outs within Islamic leadership should do it).

We did this in Iraq; when he was still at large (in a spider hole), the US military aired pictures of his palaces, with pornagraphic murals and extensive porn collections. They showed the extensive collections of makeup for his spouse, and the fact that Saddam still owned big chunks of western beauty and celebrity magazines. The effect on the iraqi-led resistance was that it withered away within hours of the tapes being shown.

then we give them something to actually live for... (a decent promise at a non-meddled life)

exactly; so that martyrdom pales in comparison to genuine opportunity. Many of them feel they have that now, but they'd have an even better life if they could get the foreign insurgents out of their nation.

and we keep taking the scraps that keep them living, everytime we blindly support Isreal, and everytime we ignore our leaderships criminal acts regarding foreign policy. Not saying we should cowtow to them, or give in, but we need to give reasonable response to actions, instead of giving them more reasons to act...

I know your stance toward Israel from other posts; still, I'd have to argue that when we choose are friends based on some sort of international popularity contest, we're sure to lose any chance at respect at all.

As much as the Euros despise our policies, they'd have even less respect for us if we started taking orders from Brussels, and looking to them for leadership.

If letting foreigners direct our foreign policy is the price of others' esteem, we're better off being hated.

A man can be measured by the nature of his enemies, as much as by the nature of his friends.

.

In order to win the war on terrorism US has to radically change its tactics, its leadership, and its plans for the future.

After 9/11, the US used the attacks as a pretense to interfere in conflicts all over the world. US drew up a strategy on how they can actually profit from the WOT- gaining new spheres of influence all over the world, where the so called "Axis of Evil" dwelled before. However instead of just going after those responsible, US started a witch hunt- first accusing somebody it does not like or harboring terrorism, and then with the help of dumbfounded allies take them down (like Iraq). But besides Middle East US also used WOT to interfere in places like Eastern Europe (Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, Poland), Central Asia (Georgia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) and Asia (Phillipines, North Korea, Indonesia). Most of these places didn't have anything to do with Al Quida in 2001, their only fault was that they were considered unfriendly to the US. Now thanks to US they either have puppet governments installed by US, now have ties with Al Quida, or have worsened relations with the US.

US is making more enemies than they originally had. And not just among some of the nations I listed, but also among world's superpowers China and Russia, who are wary of increasing American military presence around their borders and around the world. US took a minor conflict with extremist rejects in the Middle East, and turned it into a worldwide conflict that is spiraling out of control.

-Yeah I'd say US is hardly winning the WOT, if that is even its goal.

WATS my man, nice to see someone that can see the real picture with out all the academic BS and rhetoric and trying to impress us with their education.
Ever heard the phrase; if you can't convince them with facts, baffle em with BS?

It's not hard to see the BS.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by whaaa]

Originally posted by undecided2
I realize many of you are doubters out there, but I honestly believe we are winning. The latest victory can be seen in the thwarted NYC tunnel bombing plot.

abcnews.go.com...

There have been several plots discovered and stopped since 9/11. I think the Bush administration deserves some credit here. I know many of you will say this is how they planned it (9/11 conspiracy, Iraq war, etc.), but there will always be those who think everything that happens is due to some shady conspiracy.

There will always be shady people who will not just clearly tell free Americans they cannot know that one really exists.

Actually this post betrays other posts from Bush supporters. They challenged me by claiming that terrorism was always with us all throughout history. Match that with the more than hints the Bush Administration is showing us that terrorism yet always will be with us.

It then doesn't make sense to say we are winning against something that is so permanent, the Constitution is now outdated and we must permanently transform the United States into the Inquisitions.

Bush supporters are showing many different shades and many different inconsistencies. That includes the poster who chided me asking me which soldiers came banging on my door because of the Patriot Act. Contrary to the idea of asking Bush, which Saddam, beaten and contained under no-fly-zones, is putting nuclear fallout against the Whitehouse. The Republican statement was that we don't wait for the paranoia squad: we attack others before they commit crimes. We therefore don't want to wait for soldiers to bang on our doors. We want that Patriot Act we never needed for all the history of this country, out with those who failed to protect us at 911 and then claimed dictator powers for that failure.

Whosoever says we are winning against terror, needs to clarify the posts that told us terrorism was always with us and always will be with us in order to defend Bush and then claim this country must be run like the Inquisitions permanently with the imposition of the Patriot Act.

I also believe there must have been more plots discovered and stopped under all the other presidents before Bush. If that is not true, an explanation is required to show why we now have to worry about so many things that never bothered us before.

[email protected]

[edit on 7-7-2006 by tmac100]

The War on Terror will never end. The US is not accomplishing anything through the military. It is like pouring water on a stove fire. It will never end until the next generation of soon to be fanatics are educated, and have opportunities, and are not brain washed. That is when it will end. Terrorists now, they will never change, sorry.

The WOT shouldn't even be called that though. It isn't soley a war on terrorism. There are many good theories on what are the true causes (and no stargate is not one of them :lol. But control, money, resources, are good ones.

The best question forever evaded is why we never had to worry about these things before to even use the word. The next is why the Patriot Act is such a vital law that was missing more than 99% of the entire history of the United States until Bush came. I have been asking this question for years, and the more I ask is obvious the more the very foundations of the Bush regime must crumble before a truthful answer is given.

You have indeed given part of the answer, but to make this very issue clear is to tear down the fallacy of "conspiracy theory," or rather that anything we say is merely a theory and we can't prove an actual conspiracy exists. I personally don't care who disagrees with me. The day I do is the day I will be canceled out by someone else who disagrees with me, and then the more our strange political leaders can take us back to days of horror while shouting FREEDOM in the air! We cancel each other out and then empower renegade leaders to destroy this republic under false pretenses.

Anyone should be able to realize now that the Bush supporters determine that the terrorism fiasco so akin to the regime of Bush almost totally uniquely, must command that the freedoms of this country must be permanently destroyed while they shout FREEDOM in the air. If terrorism so lately akin to the Bush administration is as permanent as they are telling us, mandating the permanent Inquisition Patriot Act missing the entire history of the United States till Bush, no one is winning any war against terrorism. Freedom is being taken away, and freedom will never be given back!

These are the enemies of liberty and against this country we have always been warned about.

[edit on 8-7-2006 by tmac100]

Come on how can you say that we can never stop terrorism, I like that very much but it not ever going to happen.

Its nonesense to say that the US can't defeat 'terrorism' because its an 'abstraction'. There's nothing abstract about international networks of black market banks, arms dealers, money launderers, recruiting stations, training camps, and actual terrorist cells.
Its nonsense to say that the US can't defeat "terrorism" because its an ideology. Communism has been defeated as an ideology, as has nazism & fascism, they're recognized as non-viable political alternatives.

The US isn't fighting to all terrorism everywhere and for all time, just like the drug war wasn't against all drugs everywhere and forever. What it is fighting is the specific organizations that harvest, sow, process, package, transport, and distribute the drugs, just like it is fighting the corporate/organizations that produce jihadist propaganda, that allow terrorists to network, coordinate, train, and carry out their attacks.

No one expects there to never be another islamist in the world, but its silly to throw our hands up in the air in defeat, rather than to destroy the organizations that enable those who would be terrorists to commit massive attacks. It doesn't matter that there are, say, far right nationalists in politics to this day, they're not going to be able to install fascist totalitarian dictatorships again. It doesn't matter that, say, venezuela or cuba are communist or near communist, the world has seen what communism results in and rejects it, and there's no political body agitating for communism, funding proto-communist parties, or arming communist rebels, like the Soviet Union did. People didn't think that the nazis could be defeated. People thought that the Soviets were going to be around forever. And I am sure a heckuva lot of people thought that US shipping would never be free from the Barbary Pirates too, but they're all gone. Internationalist Terrorist organizations and the states that support them are going to be 'gone' before long too.

Originally posted by whaaa
The old cliche "one mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter" seems apropos in many cases.

And freedom fighters can be killed, their 'people's armies' destroyed, and their entire existence and utility wiped out.

You are wrong when you say that even Nazism, Communism or fascism have been defeated. You must be misinformed. The whole terrorism fiasco most unique to Bush actually came from these brutal political philosophies. The Patriot Act by principle was already practiced long by the Communists, fascist and Nazis. These brutal regimes always believed in pre-emptive war that Bush now tells us we have to believe. Especially since Bush came, these brutal regimes deserve much more the credit, and, to be facetious, Bush should be charged with copyright or patent infringement. Every step Bush makes takes us closer and closer to those so-called defeated political regimes and ideologies.

The most correct conclusion is that the operators of those brutal regimes, behaved well and patiently infiltrated our country.

Originally posted by tmac100
The best question forever evaded is why we never had to worry about these things before to even use the word.

Because until 9-11, they never successfully directed an attack against the US.

They tried on the World Trade center back in 1993 and 1996-1998, but maybe you don't consider that terrorism, because it wasn't' successful.

The Ulamma have been calling America "the great Satan" since it began suppressing piracy in the Mediterranean, 150 years before Israel even existed.

People have always hated the US, always will. Somebody posted about China and Russia getting angry at us. China and Russia have never been anything but business rivals, from the word go.

******

The fundamental outlook of most of the posters on this thread is, that if someone dislikes us, it must be because of us. WE must be in the wrong, and if we change our behavior, maybe they'll leave us alone.

This is the view that OBL must be mad at us for something we've done wrong.

The simple fact is, the enemy may be just as evil, just as wicked, and just as power-mad as you imagine your own leaders to be. Your own leadership may not be the only violent, greedy leaders the world has right now.

But then, the liberal spirit has always had difficulty acknowledging the reality of human evil. It's an attitude that assumes America must be at the heart of every problem; that if Kim Jung Il or Saddam or Iran is threatening their neighbors, then it must somehow be America's fault.

This is the same attitude that blames America for 9-11; either past policies, or some kind of conspiracy, must be the root. Such an attitude is essentially egocentric, because it imagines America as the center of the political universe, the original cause from which all else flows.

OBL was dreaming of a new Calipha decades before the CIA ever funded him, or the Russians gave him an oppressed people to manipulate. And Kim Jung was raised from infancy, and trained by his Chinese handlers, to extort money and power from the South, Japan, and the world in General.

.

37,000 Americans will commit suicide this year
27,000 Americans will be murdered by Americans
3,000 Americans will die of liver damge from Tylenol
500 Americans will die from Aspirin
1,700 Americans will die from all illegal narcotics combined
150,000 Americans will die from smoking
90,000 Americans will die from alcohol
200,000 Americans will die in car accidents

2,986 Americans and Foreign Nationals died on 9/11
2,540 American Soldiers have died in Iraq
50,000 Iraqi Civilians have been killed

What war are we winning exactly?

[edit on 8-7-2006 by Legalizer]

Of course we are winning. Terrorists will always be losers.

Dr. Strangecraft wrote:

Because until 9-11, they never successfully directed an attack against the US.

They tried on the World Trade center back in 1993 and 1996-1998, but maybe you don't consider that terrorism, because it wasn't' successful.

The Ulamma have been calling America "the great Satan" since it began suppressing piracy in the Mediterranean, 150 years before Israel even existed.

This is quite a condemnation against the Bush regime and just what I was saying all along. Why must Bush be made a king for being a success for the terrorists? How do we reward the former presidents before him who made us never worry about terrorists, terror codes nor Patriot Acts?

Still my questions have not been answered.

People have always hated the US, always will. Somebody posted about China and Russia getting angry at us. China and Russia have never been anything but business rivals, from the word go.

If we knew that, how would adopting a "NEW" policy of pre-emptive war stop people from hating us? Bush threatened Saddam often to give up his WMDs before he finally attacked Iraq. Can imagine a kid in an Iraqi home where a father is leaving the home in his soldiers' uniform? The child asks the father where he is going, and he has to say that he is going to fight. When asked why they are going to fight, the father replies that Bush demands that Iraq surrenders all its WMDs, but it doesn't have any. After the whole fiasco is to the present, Bush shows he cannot blush, and his supporters show the same. What a very vivid imagination that concludes that all those rivers of blood will not be accounted for, and mean nothing! We have to go to jail to find the worst killers?

The fundamental outlook of most of the posters on this thread is, that if someone dislikes us, it must be because of us. WE must be in the wrong, and if we change our behavior, maybe they'll leave us alone.

Then this person did everything to prevent the Iraq War so that it now doesn't look so irrational if other countries hate us. If you are concerned about others hating us, you would work to make sure that our leaders obey the Constitution and not cause this problem to be worse. Next, the word hate US. If you agree with the Constitution, you are US. If you do not, but have a secret hatred against it that constantly fuels the new movements, the word US does not apply. The world is supposed to recognize America by the Constitution which is supposed to be a transcript of its character. If it now more and more adopts the policies of its brutal former enemies, then it actually is no more America.

The simple fact is, the enemy may be just as evil, just as wicked, and just as power-mad as you imagine your own leaders to be. Your own leadership may not be the only violent, greedy leaders the world has right now.

But then, the liberal spirit has always had difficulty acknowledging the reality of human evil. It's an attitude that assumes America must be at the heart of every problem; that if Kim Jung Il or Saddam or Iran is threatening their neighbors, then it must somehow be America's fault.

That human evil could have been restrained if a document called the Constitution of the United States was adhered to. Whosoever can accept that inevitable evil, can then accept us who expose it and work to make sure that evil causes no more loss of life.

This is the same attitude that blames America for 9-11; either past policies, or some kind of conspiracy, must be the root. Such an attitude is essentially egocentric, because it imagines America as the center of the political universe, the original cause from which all else flows.

That would then mean that when an independent investigation was called for RIGHT AWAY and Bush said no to it being postponed for at least a year, you did something to make the suspicious people to understand that the natural result of this is people believing there is a conspiracy. The more you all use the term "Conspiracy theorist" and the more you keep pressing your concern that people believe there is one, is more the proof there is one and you are a part of it. You are supposed to understand that the more there is a concern that our leaders are betraying us and conspiring against us, is the more it is doing suspicious and anti-Constitutional things. You would make sure that lies and coverups cease. But that is not what you guys do. You attack those who don't like lies and coverups to make sure that such things increase. You then bellow day and night about the big bad 'ol Conspiracy theorists. You then have to accuse us after we know that you are indeed a part of that conspiracy.

Whatever it is that fuels this insatiable desire to lie to the American people, to secretize the government more and more and to cover up more and more, be sure our forefathers never suffered from this incurable disease that comes from actual conspiracy.

I want you to understand that if you adopt a totally ridiculous and unbalanced policy around this conspiracy business, then you are indeed a part of it. If you don't like a free people having the right to know there is a conspiracy, you would get behind our national leaders with some plain and simple common sense. With most that have that concern against the Big Bad 'Ol Conspiracy theorists, what they hate is the people who would believe there is a conspiracy in their free rights. They don't hate the increasing acts that causes the distrust.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
The Ulamma have been calling America "the great Satan" since it began suppressing piracy in the Mediterranean, 150 years before Israel even existed.

What was America doing in the Mediterranean over 200 years ago?

This is the same attitude that blames America for 9-11; either past policies, or some kind of conspiracy, must be the root. Such an attitude is essentially egocentric, because it imagines America as the center of the political universe, the original cause from which all else flows.

You say this, but then earlier on in your post talk about the reasons why people dislike America. It's egocentric to believe that you can do what you want and feel justified despite how it effects large groups of people. I'm not saying that just because some people don't like our actions we shouldn't do them. I'm saying that we shouldn't be egocentric to think only of ourselves and our immediate benefits, with little or no regard for people outside our country or what effects it may cause in the long-term.

When people act against America, they are acting against the actions of America, correct? We are not talking about world events here, we are talking about actions related to the US, for example you mentioned 9/11. How would the US not be at the center of events occurring on its soil like 9/11? Obviously others have reacted, but essentially the actions of America are at the heart of 9/11. I say that without any statement on whether the actions of America that contributed to 9/11 are good or bad, just that we acted and they acted.

We should not be so egocentric to think that we should not be critical of ourselves not only for the benefit of ourselves but for all of humanity. The place of America in this world demands responsibility.

At first I didn't think it possible to lose a manufactured war, but over the last five years I've noticed the situation become increasingly more violent without any resolution.

The War on Terror is lost already. Not that it was actually legitimate in the first place, but the conflicts waged under that title are apparently unresolvable.

Not only is the War on Terror lost, the actual War on Terror was created to do the actual OPPOSITE of what it was advertised. Constitutional American soldiers were put on the front lines to have them killed. The others who believe in the Inquisitions were spared and left to do what they do best: run prison camps. Now, along with the Communists and Nazis, our American leaders and military accept the One World View. The balance of power that protected us from nuclear weapons is now gone.

Because of that more and more disasters will take place. Terror will increase and increase. Nuclear weapons can create Tsunamis and other natural disasters. Our leaders, in cooperation with the communists will stage disaster after disaster and stage them as if they are taking place by other causes. This will be done against the global population in the agenda to kill them off. The New World Order belief demands that the earth must be depopulated. That New World must have much less people. Those who believe in the "heresy" of freedom must die. We have long fought against the Communists and Nazis, but we have since come to the conclusion that these enemies always remain on the outside and can't infiltrate. Our government is now virtually wholly dominated by people who are just as brutal as our wartime enemies, but who hide their true colors.

Whether you know it or not, every policy adopted by Bush is turning us more and more toward Communist and Nazi principle. Bill Clinton also directed us that way as much as he could. His 1995 Omnibus Anti-terrorism proposals is just another Patriot Act.

[email protected]

[edit on 8-7-2006 by tmac100]