Summoning? Seriously?

Question, please satisfy my curiousity;

what do you mean by "chaos magic"?
Please explain this to me (and if possible, use easy-to-understand words :lol ) as I am not learned in the mystic verbosa...

[edit on 7/12/2006 by wu kung]

Allow me to copy/paste a reply in another thread. The Necronomicon. Fact or Fiction

There is more to chaos then just relating topics that are not related with one another.

Defining what Chaos magic is is near impossible. Most forms of magic have an outline that can be used to define what it is that you are doing. Ceremonialists work with systems that require them to do extensive rituals with their system of choice (Goetia, Enochian, Heptemaron etc). With Chaos magic, as the name already implies, there is no framework to use as guidelines or that confines it. You can better start defining what Chaos magic is not before you attempt to define what it is.

There have been numerous amounts of debates about this within the magical community and still there is no definite answer. You can view one of those debates [url=http://www.magicatastrophe.com/viewtopic.php?t=457here[/url]. Another massive debate within the Chaote community is about dogma's and paradigma's and whether they belong to Chaos magic or not.

To me personally Chaos magic is working freely with no framework that defines, limits you in your working. You explore dogmatic beliefs en are tied to none, being able to switch from one to another depending on which is needed in order to achieve the task at hand. The whole Chaos magic has been taken up a whole new level with the coming of X-magic theory.

Basically, unless you are in the position to do that kindof thing, i wouldnt even think about it, unless you ahve learne dto control the most supresse dparts of being a human, you wouldnt be ready to do any "summoning' or anything like that, nor woul;d you eb able to comprehend it if it happened. In the same token humans kindof do it everyday.

I summon stuff, ican also control elements

Originally posted by Organic Shadow
If any of the sucessful summoners on here would please report on what symbols, circles, or items used sucessfully it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

You're getting too bogged down in specifics. It's not like a cake recipe, where you combine all the ingredients and you cook up a demon. The symbols are archetypal. A circle can keep things out or keep things in. Squares are for bringing order to things. Triangles are for directing things.

The materials you use depend on what you think would work well. Soil from the top of a grave is a good "barrier" material. Holy water, rose water is good for cleaning. Bone dust connects the dead world with the living world. Candles create good shadows that allow things to move back and forth. The important thing to understand is that YOU need to be confident that the stuff will work. Try to sense the "vibes" something has. Everything, every object and space, has a "vibe." Try to sensitize yourself to it. Well, you can say, what if I'm just imagining it? The answer is, "so what?" It doesn't matter. If you think it's real, it becomes real.

So be on the lookout for spells and talismans and ingredients that give you the proper vibe to accomplish what you want to do. It may take a good bit of experimentation before you come up with the right combinations. You may be able to get a head start on it if you seek out people in your local area who are practitioners, although you need to keep in mind that what works for them might not work for you. This kind of stuff is personalized. Watch out for crazy people who have evil motives for their exploration. They can poison your own magic.

It's a good idea to be careful if you're gonna mess with this stuff.

Originally posted by Enyalius
A "demon" can't leave after he is done "entertaining" the magician. This is due to the environment created in which the demon is summoned. When the magician is done he will banish the entity back where it came from. If the magician didn't do this then it is a friggin amateure and I hope he'll have a lot of trouble for the rest of his life.

Well, I have 10+ years of experience working with the 23/Lovecraftian current, but by your definition I`m apparently a 'friggin amateure'....

Banishing is overrated. Working in close proximity with your current and the anthropormophised representations thereof for extended periods of time...months, years... brings rewards that should not be discounted offhand.

I`d also like to see some documentation to back up your assertion that a demon 'can`t leave' after he has been summoned without the express permission of the summoner, being that all established underground tradition provides that the entity is more powerful than the practitioner himself. Unless, of course, you believe the prattling of corrupt judeo/christian-influenced texts like the clavicle of solomon, most of which would have you accept that you can control an entity thousands of years older than your mere self by drawing cute little circles on the floor in chalk...

[edit on 11-8-2006 by wagnerian21]

Personally I've never drawn any circles, neither do I believe that one controls any entity.

From personal experience with the Goetia, which is from Judea-Christian texts. I summon Ose or Murmur and lately started with Vassago for some additional protection. I first looked at which one would be more usefull to me as in...who could aid me in my personal growth in the area of interest at that time. The first few summonings were pretty formal and I use a visualized circle to confine the entity. After working with it regularly I build up a bond with them and since then no more need for even a visualized circle. Ose even gave me a sigil not mentioned in any books to ask his help at any given time and "summon" him without anything.

However you use a different framework to work with. Lovecraftian falls under Chaos magic and uses a different set of "rules" compared to Ceremonial. In your framework banishing is overrated, but within Ceremonial it is still an active part. Still banishing comes in more then just one form written in books. The way Chaotes work with entities is the same as new-agers do when asking for their guardians or some higher dimensional channeling guide and such. You shout out, they come, you do the thing you do, tell them you're done, they're gone. I used new-age methodology before I started working with the occult ceremonial and still apply certain aspects.

As for written material to back my statements up. No need...I work from experience. Written material is only to get the theoretical foundation down before you start experimenting yourself.

[edit on 11-8-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by wagnerian21
[ most of which would have you accept that you can control an entity thousands of years older than your mere self by drawing cute little circles on the floor in chalk...

Well I suppose fictional demons like lovecrafts might be easier to controll. Not that it matters much, if it works it works.

BTW been doing this 20 years... you're still a newbee

Cug, I know that sort of thing can seem hard to take seriously at first, but that's the beauty of Chaos magic. It discards that arbitrary delineation we make between what is, within our own minds, either real or unreal. It looks upon belief systems as malleable, interchangable, and by no means mutually exclusive. All that's important is the will; I know Crowley would agree with me on that.

If one can focus this will more perfectly upon the iconography of Lovecraft's pantheon than some other arbitrary belief system, then go for it. As long as the atavistic forces are moved, as long as the will is concentrated, it works... and every person needs a different stimulus to harness these faculties.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
Cug, I know that sort of thing can seem hard to take seriously at first, but that's the beauty of Chaos magic.

No what is hard to take seriously is the dogma that was being spouted by a chaote. And I'm absolutely mind boggled that a chaote would think banishing wont work, "Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted" and all that.

Not to mention that anyone who has been practicing for 10 years would think that the chalk lines have anything to do with in/evoking.

They come on their own. I don't think you are able, nor would I ever try to 'make them' or force them - again, not that I think you could...

But a person could think of summoning as actualy manifestation vissualy, sensing them near, smelling them, hearing them - aso definitions will change your answer.

But they are always near and readily accesable

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by wagnerian21
[ most of which would have you accept that you can control an entity thousands of years older than your mere self by drawing cute little circles on the floor in chalk...

Well I suppose fictional demons like lovecrafts might be easier to controll.

Not that it matters much, if it works it works.

BTW been doing this 20 years... you're still a newbee

I took exception with the 'Noob' label in my previous post due to my belief that name-calling is the refuge of an opponent who knows he can`t back up his positions rationally. I still hold that belief.

I see you`re into Thelema....what exactly leads you to believe Hoor or Nuit are any more 'real' than Nyarlathotep or He Who Is Not To Be Named?

Originally posted by Enyalius
Personally I've never drawn any circles, neither do I believe that one controls any entity.

Dosen`t your statement that you don`t believe one can control a given entity rather contradict your previous statement that an entity cannot exit the vicinity of the summoner without being given leave to depart?

Originally posted by Enyalius
From personal experience with the Goetia, which is from Judea-Christian texts. I summon Ose or Murmur and lately started with Vassago for some additional protection. I first looked at which one would be more usefull to me as in...who could aid me in my personal growth in the area of interest at that time. The first few summonings were pretty formal and I use a visualized circle to confine the entity. After working with it regularly I build up a bond with them and since then no more need for even a visualized circle. Ose even gave me a sigil not mentioned in any books to ask his help at any given time and "summon" him without anything.

Well, then, that`s a much more reasonable approach than most traditionalist practitioners who use those texts take. At least we can relate on that level, of taking a more respectful approach. It`s the 'come here and do stuff for me or I`ll torment you with the blasting rod' approach that kind of irks me.

Originally posted by Enyalius
However you use a different framework to work with. Lovecraftian falls under Chaos magic and uses a different set of "rules" compared to Ceremonial. In your framework banishing is overrated, but within Ceremonial it is still an active part. Still banishing comes in more then just one form written in books. The way Chaotes work with entities is the same as new-agers do when asking for their guardians or some higher dimensional channeling guide and such. You shout out, they come, you do the thing you do, tell them you're done, they're gone. I used new-age methodology before I started working with the occult ceremonial and still apply certain aspects.

As for written material to back my statements up. No need...I work from experience. Written material is only to get the theoretical foundation down before you start experimenting yourself.

[edit on 11-8-2006 by Enyalius]

While I do understand the connection between Chaos Magick and the Lovecraftian Current, I don`t personally feel any particular attraction to Chaos, and generally haven`t even had a great deal in common with the Chaotes I`ve encountered in the past. Chaotes still tend to work within something resembling a structured system (though I`m sure many would vehemently debate that point :lol, whereas the Lovecraftian approach depends on a recognition that any percieved 'control' over the archetypes one is working with is more or less illusory and an acceptance of that fact. Which is where I took exception to the inference that anyone who would fail to banish is a 'noob' who has no idea what he`s doing. I suppose we can walk away with an agreement to disagree on that point, though, if nothig else.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
Cug, I know that sort of thing can seem hard to take seriously at first, but that's the beauty of Chaos magic.

No what is hard to take seriously is the dogma that was being spouted by a chaote. And I'm absolutely mind boggled that a chaote would think banishing wont work, "Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted" and all that.

Not to mention that anyone who has been practicing for 10 years would think that the chalk lines have anything to do with in/evoking.

Your chalk lines are useless. Seriously. How anyone could have the hubris to presume they could gain any sort of advantage in dealing with an externally perceptable force by drawing little circles on the floor with chalk or salt...

Furthermore, at no point have I stated that I was a Chaote. The adage regarding 'what happens when you assume' springs to mind...

Originally posted by wagnerian21

I took exception with the 'Noob' label in my previous post due to my belief that name-calling is the refuge of an opponent who knows he can`t back up his positions rationally. I still hold that belief.

I still call noob, when ever someone thinks their way is the only proper way and all others are foolish. And like it or not that is the impression you are giving.

I see you`re into Thelema....what exactly leads you to believe Hoor or Nuit are any more 'real' than Nyarlathotep or He Who Is Not To Be Named?

Lordy.. They are all just parts of your mind, higher self, universal unconsciousness or whatever you want to call it. The names are just there to set the mood.

Your chalk lines are useless. Seriously. How anyone could have the hubris to presume they could gain any sort of advantage in dealing with an externally perceptable force by drawing little circles on the floor with chalk or salt...

DUH! The circles and stuff do the exact same thing as you using some creature from a writers imagination. They get you into the mood to do magick, they make it easier to do. Everything in magick is like this. Barbarous words, and using a language you don't normally speak also do the same thing.

Furthermore, at no point have I stated that I was a Chaote. The adage regarding 'what happens when you assume' springs to mind...

Well if you are using Lovecraftian stuff, like it or not you are in the Chaos category. And just above you said how you can understand the connection... so what's the beef?

I took exception to the inference that anyone who would fail to banish is a 'noob' who has no idea what he`s doing. I suppose we can walk away with an agreement to disagree on that point, though, if nothig else.

Well just as an example, your responce in this thread defending your views is natural, but the way you went straight into attacking another system is exactly like the effects of not banishing.

If I were to make a snap decision just on the posts here I'd say you might want to do some serious banishings.

Originally posted by Cug
If I were to make a snap decision just on the posts here I'd say you might want to do some serious banishings.

Just for the record, I`m going to take this to U2U`s so as not to take the thread OT.

*edit*: Can`t send U2U`s yet, apparently, but I still won`t be responding to this here.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by wagnerian21]



Mod Edit: Please Don't Quote Entire Posts

[edit on 8/12/2006 by Majic]

What's off topic about talking about banishing, circles, various deities/demons/whatever?

The are some of the key ingredients to summoning.

Summoning The Topic

Originally posted by Cug
What's off topic about talking about banishing, circles, various deities/demons/whatever?

Nothing whatsoever. This is Paranormal Studies, after all.

But let's all try not to go down the road of name-calling or other slights against each other, since that doesn't enlighten anyone.

It's okay to disagree about things like this, and no one here should fear abuse or ridicule simply for thinking differently.

This is Paranormal Studies, after all.

I apologize to wagnerian21if I have been a bit too aggressive in trying to prove a point.

Banishings are important, and not because some demon will eat your face if you don't. They are important because there is a ton of "energy" being used when you in/evoke and if you don't get rid of it by banishing it will effect you. Some typical minor symptoms of it are mood swings, sleepiness, restlessness, aggressiveness, withdrawing that type of thing, but it can be much worse you can start to suffer mental problems, panic attacks, paranoia, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc..

In this case it seemed to me (rightly or wrongly) almost a text book case, it was the almost instant "attack mode" of the post that got me going. Admittedly there is no way to tell from a couple of posts if it was true or not in most cases (some you just "know" have gone over the edge).

Originally posted by Majic
This is Paranormal Studies, after all.

And I still say there is nothing paranormal about Magick. But the Masons are not a "secret society" and that is the number one topic over there.

[edit on 8/12/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by wagnerian21

Originally posted by Enyalius
Personally I've never drawn any circles, neither do I believe that one controls any entity.

Dosen`t your statement that you don`t believe one can control a given entity rather contradict your previous statement that an entity cannot exit the vicinity of the summoner without being given leave to depart?

Words are just words and can never give a real scope of what's going on. Banising and Summoning and Controlling come in many shapes. Perhaps Confining would've been a better word to use. You confine a being within a controlled area.

When working with any deity there is the LHP and the RHP method. One works more by the ego and truly beliefs that they can submit beings and use whips and offerings to control them. Then there is the other path which is more of a co-operation relationship. I usually begin with creating controlled areas and confine the beings and much as possible. When working more and more with them I usually create a bond and then apply the other method and gain a great friend.

Chalk lines, Essence, Candles, Putting on a robe. It all is usefull and it all works. It just depends on what you feel as a result. I see it as getting myself into the right state of mind and vibration in correspondence with my goal.

Even though I'm a Ceremonialist I too have several cross-overs to Chaos. This made it difficult for me to decide which path was for me. I switch dogma's just as easily, I don't believe in lined out systems too much yet comform to them when I need to just like following one dogma and the next second another dogma. Also when you study the history of almost everything you will find so many similarities in each religion, traditions, life philosophy that you can no longer assume that anything is exlusive and all is one.

Well Cug explained the rest. However I see that not even the paranormal is paranormal. Everything comes from nature in the end and is quite natural. Except for scientific mutations and such those are paranormal...or would the correct term be abnormal.

So that remains a reply to AngelaLady. When I followed the path of New-Age I worked with Reiki untill I gained a master degree in it. I worked with angels/arch angels, channeling higher dimensial guardians, regular guardians, ley-line guardians, elementals...at one point specialized in lightworking. But they were all incomplete bastardized systems, weak and inefficient compared to my future experiences within the occult.

The beings you work with are those can be asked to come by when asked, simply because they are around almost 24/7. However those can not be compared to working with occult practices and working with deities. The deities there are far stronger and capable...at first their energetic presence alone almost floored me. I don't believe in a hierarchy, however it does make things more understandable for most.

You could see new-age deities in the middle layer and the beings I work with on the top layer.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by Enyalius]