Was the T-2 Shot Down by the U.S. Missile Defense?

Originally posted by VType


Definate possibility. The Russians are no slouches by any means. And even though some media would have you belive they are lacking in area's I believe they are a bit more active than they ackknowledge. Im interested in Russias political responce. I know when Nato goes alert so does Russia. Very interesting topic's.

Recently there was a rumor that Kim Jong made a secret trip to the Kremlin.

www.foxnews.com...




I can see it all now...

There stands Russia's Tsar complete with Navy hat... poised and ready to shoot...

He yells at Kim Jong...

PULL !!

Originally posted by Islamic_Guy

Originally posted by Ivanova

Originally posted by donk_316

Seriously, North Koreas "missles" are equal to the USAs version from 50 years ago. Are you really that shocked when it falls apart 40 seconds after it launches?

All this fuss and over 50 year old technology ?

tsk ... tsk...

But if the T-2 was shot down... by someone else....
using unknown technology... who would that shock

*

What gives you this opinion that these missles are the equivelant of U.S 50's tech?

Do you some sort of proof for this assertion, or is this merely bluster?

The missiles themselves are not that old - but the tracking and guidance systems are no where on par with those of the U.S. - last I checked, N.K. doesn't have an array of military satellites for such things.

I doubt it was shot down - it is likely that it sat on the pad for too long after being fueled, the gases and chemicals can eat through the containment materials very rapidly.

Missile defence? This missile defence?

When last we checked in on the missile-defense program -- admittedly, some time back -- it was projected to cost $80 billion and its missiles could not be relied upon to hit their targets. Now, the cost projections are more like $100 million, and there still is no public evidence that the missiles can hit the broad side of a barn.
Source.

I doubt it.

Actually no. THIS missile defense:

Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (Aegis BMD) will provide an efficient and highly mobile sea-based defense against short- and medium-range ballistic missiles in their midcourse phase.

The system will integrate the U.S. Navy’s existing fleet of Aegis cruisers (Ticonderoga class) and Aegis destroyers (Arleigh Burke class) with the Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) interceptor currently under development. The system will allow the Missile Defense Agency (MDA) to move its defense capabilities close to enemy launch sites, thus providing a critical “layer” to the broader Ballistic Missile Defense System.

At present, each Aegis cruiser and destroyer is outfitted with the Aegis Weapon System—the heart of which is the AN/SPY-1 radar system. AN/SPY-1 sends out beams of electromagnetic energy in all directions, thus allowing Aegis ships to track up to 100 targets simultaneously, while still retaining the ability to counter other air, surface, and submarine threats. AN/SPY-1 will be able to detect ballistic missiles as they rise above the horizon.

Once a hostile missile has been detected, Aegis BMD will launch its Standard Missile-3 interceptor from its MK41 Vertical Launching System (currently deployed on Aegis cruisers and destroyers). An evolution of the SM-2 Block IV interceptor, the SM-3 is a hit-to-kill missile comprised of a three-stage booster with a kill vehicle. As the SM-3 burns through its three stages, its GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System will set it on an intercept trajectory with the hostile missile. SM-3 will also receive target updates from the Aegis destroyer.

Since 1999, MDA has conducted five SM-3 flight tests. Four have been successful. The most recent test was on December 11, 2003, when a SM-3 from the Aegis cruiser USS Lake Erie tracked, targeted, and destroyed a short-range target missile launched from the Pacific Missile Range Facility in Kauai, Hawaii. Impact occurred at an altitude of 137 kilometers and a closing speed of approximately 3.7 kilometers per second. The entire operation, from detection to destruction, took four minutes.

missilethreat.com...

There have been at least two more recent tests, including one where a Japanese Aegis ship tracked the missile and the USS Shiloh fired the SM-3 that shot it down.

[edit on 7/4/2006 by Zaphod58]

That is incorrect information.

In the last phase of testing, it successfully shot down 6 of 8 targets.

It is still in the developement stage.

Your source says a project cost of 80bn, yet they have spent a mere 100mn.






EDIT: In reply to implosion.

[edit on 4-7-2006 by crisko]

[edit on 4-7-2006 by crisko]

Zaphod, from your link:

Aegis Ship-Based BMD
Country: USA
Basing: Sea
Status: Testing

I'm guessing that "testing" does not mean operational?

Even if we wanted to shoot it we have nothing (publicly) available that could shoot it down that early in its flight. And as others have said NK and the surrounding countries would know if we had indeed launched an interceptor missile. Most likely it malfunctioned do to poor testing standards and poor maintenance, getting a three stage missile to separate successfully from one stage to another is tricky business. Its also something which the North Koreans have not mastered to a high level. But I have wandered about the possibly of electronic attack and jamming, however as of now I think it just malfunctioned.

I suggest you consider the ABL (ala big snoot 747) or GBL (ship based) used in a TMD role in conjunction with DEWS and some other systems. Chemical lasers in this application do work; weather permitting. I find it very interesting that it failed 35 seconds into boost. This is typically when you have to get them with this system, in the first couple of minutes. DEWS gives almost instantaneous notification of launch. If you had birds in the air or ships close in you should be able to pop a bird 200-400 km if the clouds are light. I sure would like to know how far this launch site was from the coast, the trajectory of the missle, and when and where it failed with altitude. ANYBODY SEEN THESE STATS? I'd give 3 to1 this is what went down; especially on July 4th! with Bushie. Let me know what you think.

PS
To that other jackass on the other post who was bitchin about spending 80billion on ballistic missle defense saying it doesn't work, I suggest he looks into what it really takes to make one of these amazing systems work. Also consider that what I'm saying is true, I'm glad we spent the money.

Originally posted by Implosion
Zaphod, from your link:

Aegis Ship-Based BMD
Country: USA
Basing: Sea
Status: Testing

I'm guessing that "testing" does not mean operational?

There are currently three that are operational. One is in Hawaii, two are in the Korean Penninsula area. A lot of places still consider the systems as in testing until they are mostly or completely deployed.

ABL hasn't even had the laser installed on the plane yet, let alone flown with it, or even fired it from the plane.

[edit on 7/4/2006 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The ability to catch it in the lauch phase is very difficult. And even on a high alert, shooting it down in 40 seconds is WAY too fast for an Aegis to detect, track, shoot, and the missile to catch and hit the target.

I agreed with that. There's no weapon in the world that fast enough to target, intercept and destroy a ICBM as soon after it launches.

Implosion, it can be operational if we wanted it to be, since 2004 these ABM systems have been on and off. Just because some official listing say its in test phase does not mean we cant use it in a real life scenario.

By the way, PAC-3, THAAD, GBI, and the SM-3 have all had successful tests, some more than others, of course, due to the fact that this actually is rocket science. Now, to say that we could not shoot down a long range missile from North Korea is just a bit premature IMO.

Hhmmm, North Korea's much touted and much fretted over newest "Super Missle" fails less than a minute into its July 4th launch.

This very public display of mis-placed bravado just days(?) after NK, presumably with their "Beloved Leader"'s consent, threatens Nuclear War if the country (in the form of the T-2 ?) is "attacked".

Most would consider the threat dubious, at best; still can't be too careful. And Yet, there is alot ridding on making certain that future bad behavior is not encouraged by a successful launch, however unlikely that might be, given the technology and circumstances.

What is the West to do?

Destroying the missle on the ground, pre-launch, would be far too provocative.

Using our relatively untested ABM system might prove unseccussful and diplomatically emasculating; too risky a ploy, unless the launch trajectory proved the likely-hood of an attack, rather than a mere test. Best to save the ABM's unless absolutely necessary.

As some one previously stated, the missle may be new, but the technology, given NK's resources (or lack thereof) is decidedly old school. Especially where it comes to guidance and control electronics.

It is said that NK's ruler, Kim Jong Il, is a big fan of the James Bond films.

Wonder if he's ever seen Dr. No?

Wonder if a "Spy Plane" flying in the area of a launch could "topple" a T-2 by jamming its "50 year old"-style electronic controls.....without ever having to risk detection?

Wonder how many NK scientist heads will roll as "Spies of the West" once, and if, "Lil Kim" recognizes the possibility that he's been "played" to look the fool by a 40 year old script!

Good-night, Miss Moneypenny!

To correct my previous post, I have found two Aegis ships that are currently deployed with SM-3 missiles, one Arleigh Burke destroyer that is capable of LRS&T only, and one older DDG that is capable of fire control and tracking.

And the fastest that an Aegis has shot down a missile in the tests off Hawaii was FOUR MINUTES.

[edit on 7/4/2006 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by donk_316
you guys... cmon. if the usa had shot it down it would be all over the friggin news. America would be gloating about it and the Asian world would be reporting it.

No "secret lazer equiped 737s" shot it down or "black ops" subs... Geez

Well if the U.S or any other country shot it down, I can see how they would keep it secret.

Why would the U.S want to gloat to every nation that we shot it down? This would upset NK even more and put the spotlight on them, what will they do next? will they just sit back down and not do anything? this would show they world they are weak.

Or will they take further action against the U.S that could potentially start a nucleaur war?

If the U.S really did shoot it down, Im sure they mutually agreed with NK not to tell the world about it as long as no further action is taken by NK. Make it seem like it failed somehow.

And you think NK would stick to that? They haven't stuck to any OTHER agreement, so why this one?

I rekon God did it!

Just like you'd snuff out a candle.

I mean come on! - He IS on OUR side after all

The North Korean missle was destroyed by an airborne laser weapons system. I have no evidence to support this statement but it fits the profile of what a laser does.
It was stated on the news that the missle disintegrated in flight within one minute after launch. This is about the time frame it would take a laser beam to heat up the inwards of the missle.
Last week at Edwards AFB, tests were being conducted on this system. The aircraft departed Edwards on Thursday of last week, for parts unknown.

There are a lot of possibilities that would make perfect sense.

Number 1- we might have shot it down with something we haven't disclosed. That would be an effective way of warning the international military community discretely. We said we were might shoot it down, then if the missile fails with no apparent cause, those in the know have to take stock of the possibilities, and this is definately one of them.

Number 2- the Chinese could have sabotaged the launch to calm us down and let us know that they aren't going to let things get out of hand. A war in Korea is not in China's interest; they don't want a US presence any closer than it already is, they don't want a client state rubbed out, and they don't want their North Korean puppet coming off the strings. If Kim got nuts, they'd probably be johnny on the spot to check him before we did and send a message to us and the international community that 1. They're responsible members of the international community. 2. Asia is THEIR turf.

Number 3- It's plenty likely that the missile just didn't work this time around. I wouldn't get to confident in the idea that this is 50 year old technology exactly, but whatever its age is, it's new to NK and there will be screw ups. You can't take an old dust off old Russian missile technology, modify the heck out of it in a 3rd world country, and expect it to shoot the nose off a gnat from thousands of miles away right off the bat.
If this test was a simple failure though, we'd better not consider the issue solved, because they'll get it to work in that case, whether it's next month or in 5 years.


And of course even if it was a simple SM-3 shootdown, the circumstances would have a lot to do with whether or not we admitted it. Which nation's waters did we shoot it down from, and would they give us permission only contingent upon keeping it secret?
Do the Koreans want to make Bush look good, or do they want our public to remain afraid that they'll get it right sooner or later?

Hard to say with any certainty how it happened.

Who's to say that the missle wasn't destroyed from space?
Reagans Star Wars technology must have gone somewhere!!!
Do you really think that all that technology just disappeared?
I mean don't you think it's funny that the only missle to 'Explode" was the only missle that could reach U.S. targets?

[edit on 5-7-2006 by Slaine01]

Originally posted by flycatch
The North Korean missle was destroyed by an airborne laser weapons system. I have no evidence to support this statement but it fits the profile of what a laser does.
It was stated on the news that the missle disintegrated in flight within one minute after launch. This is about the time frame it would take a laser beam to heat up the inwards of the missle.
Last week at Edwards AFB, tests were being conducted on this system. The aircraft departed Edwards on Thursday of last week, for parts unknown.

If the challenging technology can be developed as planned, the YAL-1A Airborne Laser will become USAF’s first operational airborne laser weapon. Plans call for the ABL to take its first realistic test shot at the end of 2008. The ABL is, essentially, a 747-type cargo aircraft equipped with a powerful chemical laser weapon, primed for shooting down ballistic missiles in their boost phase.

www.afa.org...

Even if ABL WAS there, it would have to be within 25 miles (max range of the laser is currently 23 miles), and would have to ID, track, lock on, and heat the missile IMMEDIATELY. There is no way that ANY human controlled system can shoot down a missile in 40 seconds.

Why is it so hard to believe that they had a simple failure? How many has NASA had over the years? And they've been doing this for 40 some odd years.