Just a pissed off kid

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

It seems that anyone who doesn't support what is an essentially illegal war

Can you please state what law was broken in the declaration of the war?

Should i bring up the fact that many of the people who colinised america were christian and enslaved many black people?

While this is true, lets remember that it were Muslims who brought the practice of slavery to Africa in the first place.

What about the modern time fire bombings of abortion clinics? What about the threats to workers there? What about the fire bombing of homosexual clubs? Many commited by christian extremists adamantly following the teachings of a book which may or may not have been the word of god.

Please tell me the last time these acts were committed, as opposed to "honor" killings which take place throughout much of the middle east.

Nil desperandum. I have friends who follow the islamic faith. They are extremely nice people who don't support the acts commited by the extremists. They have tried their absolute best to distance themselves from the extremists because they believe that the extremists are not following the religion properly.

Islam is not the problem, it is some peoples interpretation of it. I also belive it is the nature of the people who gravitate towards extremism that is the problem. Obviously some are brain washed, the leaders though seem like naturally cruel people.
So you wanted proof? Would a meek and mild muslim be proof? Someone who never commited a crime, hates the terrorists who have commited horrible acts of violence and supports the arrest and prosecution of such people? If so then please let me introduce you to some of the people i know.

Actually, true Islamic fundamentalists would disagree with you. Islamic moderates are not following the Koran faithfully. They are departing from the Word. But so are Christian moderates. Every time a Christian moderate goes into a town where one person is worshiping a false god, if that Christian doesn't destroy the town and everyone in it, they are not following the Word. And to Mormon fundamentalists, LDS is not following the true book of Mormon. And they are right! All moderates have departed from the original Word of their holy texts.

www.samharris.org...

Originally posted by hogtieCan you please state what law was broken in the declaration of the war?

Well i may be wrong but when we went to war we were told it was all about WMD's, then we discover the intelligence was exagerated. Surely that makes it an illegal war becuase the reason for starting it was false, and known to be flase.

Originally posted by hogtie
While this is true, lets remember that it were Muslims who brought the practice of slavery to Africa in the first place.

And? If someone continues something horrible it doens't make them any better than the people who started it. The fact is that christians still enslaved people, i was just trying to point out that virtually every religion has marks in it's past. I'm sick of people making it sound like islam is a terrible religion which needs to be removed.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
What about the modern time fire bombings of abortion clinics? What about the threats to workers there? What about the fire bombing of homosexual clubs? Many commited by christian extremists adamantly following the teachings of a book which may or may not have been the word of god.

Originally posted by hogtiePlease tell me the last time these acts were committed, as opposed to "honor" killings which take place throughout much of the middle east.

Ok here.

150 US abortion clinics sent white powder and threatening letters - news.bbc.co.uk...


Headline - Radical Christians to target abortion clinics - www.timesonline.co.uk...


From this article

In America clinics have been firebombed and since 1991 three doctors and four members of clinic staff have been murdered. Neal Horsley, the American anti-abortionist, who posted photographs of murdered abortion doctors on the web with a red line through their faces, told The Times that he has links with groups in Britain, but refused to name them

....Mainstream Christian groups distanced themselves from Christian Voice, which also lobbies against homosexuality and is preparing to launch a campaign against sex education in schools. Mr Green, the author of a virulently anti-gay book called The Sexual Dead End, said: “Homosexuality is a pathology, an emotional or psychological disorder. It is a very sad thing but it is something you can get over.



You want more? I can get more if you wish, there has been a systematic campaign f terror against abotion clinics by extreme christian groups. The ket to many issues including christian and islamic followers commiting acts of terror is that they are extremists. This is my whole point. Mainline religious thought is not usually the problem, it's the fringe elements.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Nil desperandum. I have friends who follow the islamic faith. They are extremely nice people who don't support the acts commited by the extremists. They have tried their absolute best to distance themselves from the extremists because they believe that the extremists are not following the religion properly.

Islam is not the problem, it is some peoples interpretation of it. I also belive it is the nature of the people who gravitate towards extremism that is the problem. Obviously some are brain washed, the leaders though seem like naturally cruel people.
So you wanted proof? Would a meek and mild muslim be proof? Someone who never commited a crime, hates the terrorists who have commited horrible acts of violence and supports the arrest and prosecution of such people? If so then please let me introduce you to some of the people i know.

Originally posted by hogtie
Actually, true Islamic fundamentalists would disagree with you. Islamic moderates are not following the Koran faithfully. They are departing from the Word. But so are Christian moderates. Every time a Christian moderate goes into a town where one person is worshiping a false god, if that Christian doesn't destroy the town and everyone in it, they are not following the Word. And to Mormon fundamentalists, LDS is not following the true book of Mormon. And they are right! All moderates have departed from the original Word of their holy texts.

Well i will stick with the people i know who are followers of islam and follow the koran. It's common sense that intervenes with these people. My point was that not all muslims are evil people walking around ready for their chance to strike. I still think it is down to interpretation, afterall thats what the people i know say, and they follow the religion so i will trust them on that.

If you could post something, a quote from the koran proving your point of a completely violent religion i would be grateful. I know others have posted some in other threads but i would like them to be here as well if you don't mind.

ooh! a territorial pissing thread!

Yay! another one.

My dad is bigger than your dad by the way!

Mod Note: Please stay on topic. Any further attempts to disrupt this thread will not be taken lightly.

mrwupy
ATS Moderator

[edit on 9-7-2006 by mrwupy]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Well i may be wrong but when we went to war we were told it was all about WMD's, then we discover the intelligence was exagerated. Surely that makes it an illegal war becuase the reason for starting it was false, and known to be flase.

Bad intelligence does not strip the President of the authority to declare war, nor Congress.

And? If someone continues something horrible it doens't make them any better than the people who started it.

You’re right. They all have a bad history. But you brought up slavery, and while it has been outlawed in the US for over 140 years, human trafficking is still alive and well in many Muslim nations.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
What about the modern time fire bombings of abortion clinics?

One story you posted is dated 2001, and the other is 2005. I could fill up the whole page with links to stories of people killed by Islamic violence in 2006 alone. I’m sorry, but you can’t compare “since 1991 three doctors and four members of clinic staff have been murdered” to something a little more recent (this past saturday), like the attempted bombing of an elementary school.

www.sunstar.com.ph...

Comparing the numbers of abortion clinic assaults is just ludicrous compared to those killed in various bombings world wide. I know I’m splitting hairs on your point, but it really is no comparison.

If you could post something, a quote from the koran proving your point of a completely violent religion i would be grateful. I know others have posted some in other threads but i would like them to be here as well if you don't mind.

I never said that all Muslims were violent. My point is that you can not say that as a majority it is the religion of peace that CAIR would have us believe. It is the religion of peace as long as you believe as they do, otherwise woe be unto you. I'll give you some scripture, but keep in mind, I can find almost the exact same thing in the Bible. What I'd like for everyone to understand is that religion has cause more division and death throughout history than it can ever compensate for.

2:191
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2:216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

3:28
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

3:151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

3:178
Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment.

4:56
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

6:49
But those who reject our signs,- them shall punishment touch, for that they ceased not from transgressing.

Originally posted by Legalizer
Sorry Xray18, but before I even read that you had signed up for the military I very much got the impression that you are a victim of not knowing what you are talking about, not having any worldly experience, not having a clue what is really happening in the world.

I have to say this, if you go through with your military training, and they actually send you somewhere that you have to face a fire fight, you won't be coming back, either by enemy hands, or your own hand when you realize you joined based on not knowing anything.

Thats the gut feeling I've got man: you don't have the smarts to survive.

Yup, absolutely right.

And to think, that kid is going to end up taking Iraqi lives *sigh*.

Originally posted by hogtieYou can sit behind your monitors and speculate and fume and flame, but in the end, for good or bad, 18XRay is going to be doing while everyone else just sits here posting. You want to bitch about the govt and an unjust war, then do something about it instead of stroking each others' ego about how smart you are and how ignorant someone like 18XRay is.

Do me a favor, and don't assume or pretend to know what any of us is, or isn't doing, because it's painfully obvious that you have no idea. Thanks.

Originally posted by hogtie
It doesn't sound like anyone has set a genius record on this thread so far.

Yeah, you especially.



[edit on 7/5/2006 by BRCMontana]

I agree. We're on the same political page there.

Hey BC, do you fancy more Telekinesis?

We elected him twice because.... he is a good president.

Mr. Bush may have won the first one, but he stole the second one.
I recently made a topic on this very subject. It still pisses me off knowing that my vote may not have even counted.

Why would anyone trust a president that cheats his way to office? And then risk your life because he told you to????????
My 2 cents? Stay out of the military and go to college. You'll live longer.

Originally posted by neformore
ooh! a territorial pissing thread!

Yay! another one.

My dad is bigger than your dad by the way!

Territorial? Err no it's called a discussion, we aren't in a pissing contest (charming phrase by the way).

Well good luck to 18XRay, as i said before if you end up in combat then good luck, i hope you come back without injury.

Originally posted by BRCMontana

Do me a favor, and don't assume or pretend to know what any of us is, or isn't doing, because it's painfully obvious that you have no idea.

I'm sorry. I must have missed the part where somebody posted "when I was in Iraq, I saw this or that." I guess statements such as "my friend said this or that" should have been taken as direct experience on the poster's part. Please forgive me for mistaking direct knowledge for third party anectdotes. I forget that this is a conspiracy theory site (althought the thread has been posted in PTS), where first hand knowledge appears to be virtually non existent. I also apologize for not recognizing yours or anyone elses work to make a difference. It was as plain as the nose on my face, but I just didn't see it before. How stupid of me to assume. If you're participating in that rotating fast in DC, I hear the humus is to die for! But, if by chance you are part of that secret army forming to overthrow imperialistic facistic govt, please spare my life. I meant no harm by my impertinence. Your work is very, very important.

[
Yeah, you especially.

You sure got me on that one! Please excuse my while I go home and cry myself to sleep on my big tear soaked pillow. Your razor like wit has virtually assured that I will never post again. Oh the humanity!

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Territorial? Err no it's called a discussion, we aren't in a pissing contest (charming phrase by the way).

Well good luck to 18XRay, as i said before if you end up in combat then good luck, i hope you come back without injury.

Quite right. If I post something, such as the verses from the Koran, I can anticipate that there will be feedback / dispute, and I am fully prepared to see other points of view. I can either change my mind, or feel stronger about my position. That is the value of dialogue.

For the record, I think Jelaludin Rumi is one of the most under appreciated spiritual influences in the western world.

What do you mean "we" elected him?
I didn't vote for him.
And, chances are, he didn't even win the first election.
It looks like it was just handed to him.
Chains on the troops?
No one makes you join the military.
If someone joins the army (or any other branch), then they are aware that there is the potential to be sent into a warzone to fight and die, it is the nature of soldiering.
Honestly, if you're (and I don't mean you personally, so don't take this personally) poor, do you honestly think that the high level gov't officials give a d#$n about you?
I mean, seriously.
Most of us are just considered "useless eaters"; meaning: we just take up space and have no real value as human beings.

Well, sorry to go off,
but that's my take on it.

After reading this thread much more closely, I realized something...
This kid is perfect for the current state of the military:
Angry, directionless, willing to believe the hype and willing to throw his life away for a system that couldn't care less about him.

But, it is his choice afterall.

I actually feel kind of bad,
not for him,
but that there are a hundred thousand kids just like him.

[edit on 7/6/2006 by wu kung]

[edit on 7/6/2006 by wu kung]

Originally posted by hogtie
I also apologize for not recognizing yours or anyone elses work to make a difference. It was as plain as the nose on my face, but I just didn't see it before. How stupid of me to assume.

Agreed, but it's quite okay. You sound like you haven't even come close to realizing it yet, but the things you don't recognize or know about could probably fill a few Tokyo phone books.

Originally posted by hogtie
You sure got me on that one! Please excuse my while I go home and cry myself to sleep on my big tear soaked pillow.

There there Hogtie, there's no need for that. *hands tissue* It just had to be pointed out that you weren't meeting the standard yourself that you were seemingly holding everyone else to.

Originally posted by hogtie
Your razor like wit has virtually assured that I will never post again.

Originally posted by BRCMontana

Originally posted by hogtie
I also apologize for not recognizing yours or anyone elses work to make a difference. It was as plain as the nose on my face, but I just didn't see it before. How stupid of me to assume.

Agreed, but it's quite okay. You sound like you haven't even come close to realizing it yet, but the things you don't recognize or know about could probably fill a few Tokyo phone books.

Originally posted by hogtie
You sure got me on that one! Please excuse my while I go home and cry myself to sleep on my big tear soaked pillow.

There there Hogtie, there's no need for that. *hands tissue* It just had to be pointed out that you weren't meeting the standard yourself that you were seemingly holding everyone else to.

Originally posted by hogtie
Your razor like wit has virtually assured that I will never post again.

Why don't you love me?

I love everyone!

I just come here to debate and have fun. Debating helps keep yer brain sharp!

I, for one, admire your values and spirit, 18XRay. Service to others is the highest calling and there is no higher cause than that of freedom. Live or die, you will never regret choosing to serve your country, at least in the long run. Before you finish all your training you will likely question your decision and your sanity, but trust me, if you stick with it, you will experience a pride of accomplishment most will never know.


[edit on 2006/7/14 by GradyPhilpott]