My baby was aborted on November 18,2005.

While I was living in Maryville, TN (nextdoor neighbor to Knoxville), I was living what seemed like a calm and decent life. I thought at the time I had the best relationship in the world.

In September, she informed me that she thought she was pregnant. We followed normal procedure...
The thing I SHOULD HAVE DONE was get married. I shouldn't have waited on a big marriage or anything, like we had planned.
But talks were great all the time, everything was in order... I mean everything.
We were going to be happy, be a family...
On the week of November 10, I noticed that she was being really quiet. I was working for Flanagin & Son Roofing out of Rockford. I went to work every early morning, and came back sometimes late in the evening. I came back around 4pm this particular day and tried to have a talk with her. She didn't want to talk. She didn't want to smile.... she didn't even want to cry. I couldn't figure her out... every couple of hours I checked on her to see what was going on. Nothing.
I did not sleep in the same bed with her that night.
The next morning, I ask her again... now she is being rude. I normally don't mind it, but without any explanation at all, it's starting to get on my nerves. I go to work... I decide while I'm sitting there chuckin shingles at my foreman that I'll give her some space tonight and not bother her with questions. I ask Grant if I can go to stay at his place that night and he was all for it. I went by the house, left her the number for Grant's house and said call me when you need me.
I never got a call that night! I really was expecting her to atleast see if I WAS where I said I was. I didn't sleep hardly at all that night, although I pretended to enjoy the movies we were watching.
I went to bed probably around 5 am. Grant wakes me up at 9 am. First thing I thought is we're late for work, but he told me it was the phone. I figured it was her calling me to finally talk.
How right I was.
The only thing I really remember hearing is "Are you going to help pay for the abortion..." and I can't tell you much from there, except that must be atleast an example of what Hell must feel like. The burning, the explosion in the head, the cold and warm sweat all at the same time, the gravity --
There was nothing I could say, and I wish I could have.
My first thought was that she already had it done... but she didn't. I found out later (FROM HER MOM) that she had an ultrasound done and the baby was 13 weeks along. I found out later that is past the deadline here. She paid an extra 1800 dollars to have it done. I could do nothing about it... I pleaded my case over and over, I spent all week talking with a Christian couple about how to fight this, I spent time researching the laws and... it all boiled down to Roe vs. Wade. Because I was not married to her, I had no say, what-so-ever. IT doesn't matter that I would have gladly taken care of the baby myself if she wanted no part. We both took part in sex together, it was mutual - I was making good money, we had a roof, food, transportation, even to spare...
One of the worst parts thinking of all of this is the fact that she already has a little baby girl named Alexis. A beautiful girl... how could she look at her daughter and want to do this?
It's been long enough now that I've had time to come back to life from the situation. I no longer live there... or have any contact with them whatsoever. I feel guilty of murder myself for not foreseeing this. I've given God my word since that I will not have sex until I am married, and that is final for me.
What I want to know is... why are politics like that? Why is it just based upon marriage that someone has a say in something that can happen so quickly? No, the marriage probably wouldn't have worked out in light of all this, which I don't even know the reason because I was never told.
I would love insight on this matter. Someone tell me why the law is like that.

Why is the law like what? Allowing her to decide without your consent?
Because she is her own person, and has the right to decide on what happens to her body. You seem to forget that regardless of what you might have thought to do after the kid was born, it is she who has to lug it around for nine months. From the sounds of it, it was probably for the best.

Your feelings and descision in this case is understandable. Especially deciding not to have sex until you find someone on your level who you are willing to spend the rest of your life with. Thats the best preventive from something like this every happening again.

But regardless of your personal views on abortion, it is good to remember she is a person who has her own feelings and opinions. She is not a breeding machine. She has her own issues to deal with.

I think she was wrong to treat you like she did though. She should have been honest with you, and also open to your own feelings and opinions on the issue, since you guys were in a relationship and an abortion would effect you too.

In the future, be careful where you place your privates and reassess your view of the "fairer" sex. You should gain a very clear perspective of human nature based on this experience.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
In the future, be careful where you place your privates and reassess your view of the "fairer" sex. You should gain a very clear perspective of human nature based on this experience.

I know that this comment is sarcastic but to tell you the truth I agree with it.

I believe in a woman rights to her body.

But I also believe that in a situation that a partner is a willing partner it should have the right to voice his opinion specially if they share a very close relationship.

It seems that in your case it was just an illusion.

Go on with you life and there will be somebody that will be more than willing to have a family with you.

Just because you have a very sad and hurtful time doesn't mean that the law should be questioned or that has failed you.

The only one that failed you was your partner.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by marg6043]

I am sorry that you had to go through that and that you have poor feelings over it.

She is the one giving birth, the man has no rights to prevent her from getting an abortion.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I am sorry that you had to go through that and that you have poor feelings over it.

She is the one giving birth, the man has no rights to prevent her from getting an abortion.

I have to agree, and that is the best way I can ever silence a debate on the issue. When a man has the ability to transfer that fetus into their own bodies, and deal with the pains of labor, then there can be a choice.

BTW, I am sorry that it affected you this way Tarzan, stress is stress whether I agree with your standpoint or not. I hope that you have a way to find healing and strength with your faith and this. I'm being serious when I say that, not sarcastic at all.

I disagree with the popular idea her....blah blah blah a womens body she chooses. That is bogus, it is no longer just her body when the sperm meets the egg and a baby has begun formation, it is also now the body of TarzanBeta's son. They agreed to have sex, this is a risk when you engage in this act. Just becuase you liberals wanna have rapant sex without repercussions doesn't give you the accuse to kill a baby. A life. And dont tell me its not a baby until the third tri, thats ridiculous. Or that its not a baby until outside the womb, you dont tell your husband to come feel the fetus kicking. It is life.

This debate will go-on an on, so ill stop here, but Tarzan in my opnion here is the number 1 thing wrong with America and the world today. it saddens me to see how far weve sunk.

Well that's too bad Tarzan . I think if the man is really willing to take care of the kid himself she should let him have it. Abortions can be quite painful too. I'm still not really for refusing a woman an abortion. Ultimately I think it's her own choice to make even if it isn't necessarily something I agree with. BTW Tarzan your resolutions at the end were the perfect solution to the problem.

Tarzan you may have recourse she had the abortion illegally in your state if I was you I would find out who did the operation and see to it they lose thier license, that way you may at least save another life which may bring you some closure to your story.

This is the first story of this kind ive ever heard from a father, its sad and I feel for you so much i cant say mate. Im a father of two, and I know if that had happened to me id be not only devestated but ropeable. (angry)
Its extremely unfair but thats how it is, married or not, we guys have no rights in this issue regardless our location. There is no law inthe western world that forces women to keep the bub, even if their was, she might do it anyway.
I hope you find someone who does want your child and you put this behind you.
best wishes, Torn

This is frustrating.

What's worse, no one is really thinking about her behavior, other than "It's her right" or "that B****". What really worries me is that her behavior is what the court calls temporary insanity. I'd call it mood swings, whatever. Some psychologists may call it a cry for help.

Tarz, the way you talk about it makes it seem like her behavior was completely out of left field. My sis-in-law went like that after my nephew was born, and we've got her on meds until she can handle herself without them, and counseling. Don't get me wrong, she had issues from the get-go, but it got bad, recently.

For perspective: Did she have her little girl and somewhere along the way, have the father ditch her when she needed him the most? That messes you up.

What it sounds like: She had a panic moment, and then when you didn't come home (not your fault, one of thost things that happens) and remembered a lot of the bad moments with the other girl, and decided she couldn't go through with it again, and so she put on a tough act, and killed her kid. Knowing how mother-daugher relationships can go, she probably said a few things out of context to her mum, and her mum, while being supportive, may have even suggested it, whether or not she really wanted this for her girl. Hell, the previous guy might have told her to get an abortion, and it stuck in her head ever since.

If it was anything like this, what she needed was your help, and it is still likely what she needs. I'm not talking about being in a relationship with her. I'm talking about the father figure you were to her other one. Whether it's logicall or not, you've probably reinforced the idea that if a kid comes along, the man is going to leave, irrelevant of what you do. Likely, she is still having hormonal issues, and is scarred for what she did to herself.

In as much as is on here, you did nothing wrong. You shouldn't beat yourself for it. Something scriptural, for a point:

2 Samuel 12:15b.-24a
15 And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. 16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. 17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? 19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. 20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. 21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife...

This was "the man after God's own heart." He was very guilty in what had happend with that child, but he had a country to run.

My point: Grieve, but get on with your life. Longsuffering guilt over something that is already done is just going to hurt you more.

For all: PERSONAL ABORTION ISSUES NEED TO BE DECIDED BEFORE YOU EVER HAVE SEX. It needs to be talked about between couples. And whatever you decided, it's best to stick to your decision through all paranoid hormone swings. I pray to God that always errs in favor of the child, but I can't say that it will.

Well, I gotta say, I'm with the majority here, it's her body, and therefore her right to have an abortion if she so chooses, I mean in the end, if she'd have been forced to go through with the pregnancie, it could have been very bad, she would be put through alot of stress and possibly psychological pain, plus the immense physical pain of child birth, and to top it all off all the stress and emotional/psychological turmoil w/could transfer to the baby, be that through psychological or physical.

Just becuase you liberals wanna have rapant sex without repercussions doesn't give you the accuse to kill a baby.

I'd like to just say that I take precedent to that, I'm, in most ways a liberal, but it does'nt mean I have rampant sex, nor do most liberals I know.
Perhaps your confusing liberals with hippies, the two are very different things.
Also, it's not a baby until it's fully formed, and thats science and law (I don't remember the trimester thing, so that has to do), in my opinion though, it's not life until it's conscious.

Tarzan, my heart goes out to you. It's a difficult situation and no solution will be entirely satisfactory for both parties, unfortunately. I have to say that NO child should be brought into this world if one parent wants it and the other one doesn't, regardless of the parent's gender. It's just not right for the child.

My ex-husband's wife wanted a baby when they were married. My husband has never wanted children and didn't want this one. She promised to get an abortion but didnt. THe result? THe baby was born and is now 11 y.o. She is retarded and will probably always need supervision and help with living. My hubby is very good about paying child support, etc. and the relationship between us all is very amicable. But the bottom line is this: now my husband feels terribly guilty about allowing this child to be born. He realizes he cannot be there for his daughter as we live across the country from her now. But he calls her on her birthday and at other times, but it really tears his psyche and soul up. I'm sure he kicks himself everyday for not leaving the marriage when she insisted on having the baby. I'm sure it's been painful for this little girl. We try the best we can but the bonding just isn't there.

So, if it gives you any comfort, Tarzan, think about how else your situation might have gone. It might have been a very bad thing for the child to have a mom who really didn't want her in the first place. How would you feel every time your wife exhibited less than loving behavior towards that child? I would imagine it would have ripped you up every time it happened; and it would have happened.

You seem to be a very sweet guy who really wants a child - I'll bet when you're ready that you will find a wonderful woman who also wants children. I can't tell you how heartening it is to know that a guy really wants a child so much. I'm sure you will make an excellent father one day. Would there were more men like you.

To Scry: How would it be for you if you were forced to be pregnant for 9 months and then always be held legally, financially, physically and emotionally responsible for a child you did not want?

Originally posted by iori_komei
Also, it's not a baby until it's fully formed, and thats science and law (I don't remember the trimester thing, so that has to do), in my opinion though, it's not life until it's conscious.

That's the issue. Most babies aren't "fully formed" until they reach child bearing age...and then, still not fully formed.

Heartbeat:

The fetal heart:
The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception, or about five weeks after the last menstrual period, which by convention we call the fifth week of pregnancy. The heart at this stage is too small to hear, even with amplification, but it can sometimes be seen as a flickering in the chest if an ultrasound is done as early as four weeks after conception.

how can a heat beat without being fully formed?
General accepted argument is that after the first trimester, it's a no-no, since it is shaped like a kid, and has parts that do things like a kid.
fetal developement.
Other genral accepted argument: If it can live outside the womb, it's a baby....which can happen as low as after the first 4 months. Which had all the British doctors wanting to change the abortion laws, because they didn't want to kill something that they could save.

Also, since we have grown test tube goats, and probably will grow test-tube children, life outside of mum is now a moot point from conception.


And one more thing: There is the 600+ page book on a study done about whether the brain controls thought or thought controls brain. The conclusion: thought controls brain, i.e. there is such a thing as a soul. the scientist in question was rather pissed.

So now your question to answer for yourself is: Is consciousness an act of Spirit or of Brain? If it is an act of spirit, then you can't say at all when consciousness begins, not even scientifically. Safety to err with the life begins at conception with that one.

U2U me for the book, not bothering to talk about it, in any detail, unless someone shows some remote form of intrest.


Anyway, right or wrong, it needs to be decided before children are involved at any level. Remember "It's not a tumor".

Originally posted by jlc163

Originally posted by iori_komei
Also, it's not a baby until it's fully formed, and thats science and law (I don't remember the trimester thing, so that has to do), in my opinion though, it's not life until it's conscious.

That's the issue. Most babies aren't "fully formed" until they reach child bearing age...and then, still not fully formed.

Heartbeat:

The fetal heart:
The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception, or about five weeks after the last menstrual period, which by convention we call the fifth week of pregnancy. The heart at this stage is too small to hear, even with amplification, but it can sometimes be seen as a flickering in the chest if an ultrasound is done as early as four weeks after conception.

how can a heat beat without being fully formed?
General accepted argument is that after the first trimester, it's a no-no, since it is shaped like a kid, and has parts that do things like a kid.
fetal developement.
Other genral accepted argument: If it can live outside the womb, it's a baby....which can happen as low as after the first 4 months. Which had all the British doctors wanting to change the abortion laws, because they didn't want to kill something that they could save.

Also, since we have grown test tube goats, and probably will grow test-tube children, life outside of mum is now a moot point from conception.


And one more thing: There is the 600+ page book on a study done about whether the brain controls thought or thought controls brain. The conclusion: thought controls brain, i.e. there is such a thing as a soul. the scientist in question was rather pissed.

So now your question to answer for yourself is: Is consciousness an act of Spirit or of Brain? If it is an act of spirit, then you can't say at all when consciousness begins, not even scientifically. Safety to err with the life begins at conception with that one.

U2U me for the book, not bothering to talk about it, in any detail, unless someone shows some remote form of intrest.


Anyway, right or wrong, it needs to be decided before children are involved at any level. Remember "It's not a tumor".

Ok, I guess I should'nt have said fully formed, I just could'nt remember at what point it becomes illegal to have an abortion, on the more national level, not the state level.

As for the consciousness thing, from what I've read, in several science magazines and sites, the consences on what makes consciousness is still out, but most believe that it forms as the brain develops the functions that allow certain aspects of it, IE self-awareness, 3D image comprehension etc.

Personally, I agree that consciousness develops as the brain does, and the only thing the "soul" does is become your non-corporeal body, when your corporeal one ceases to function.

Unfortunately, there is not a way to transfer the fetus to the man, to carry for 9 months... so the option of you forcing your choice upon her, is a bit premature technologically...
(but there is hope... that eventually men can carry the baby in a synthetic womb)
that is really the only fair way for a man to have a voice in this process...
anything else, would be borderline abduction, or false imprisonment (there have been cases)
the only other option is of course, only having sex with people that agree to keep any resultant children before copulation... (probably ought to sign a contract for it to stick)

since Abortion is legal, it is the right for the woman to decide to carry the child to term... its the law that was refined from all the various issues that can come up... and although there are tragedys with the present way of things, there would have been far more tragedys with the way it was...

FYI, a portion of 13week fetus's dont make it to term anyway, and women have a way of "purging" the fetus naturally in many cases...
if they truly dont want it with all their heart, it can cause a miscarraige...

so if it is any consolation at all, if she was truly unhappy with the pregnancy, and moreover perhaps nervous about getting married due to a pregnancy, then it would probably have miscarried anyway.

It sounds like she wasn't as sure about this relationship as you were, and for that, i am sorry... She sounds like a confused individual, but perhaps not confused about forseeing another child, when she knows what it took to raise the first one right.

Here is the other side of the coin, what might have happened if you had got together with her. This is what happened to me.

I met a girl and thought she was the one for me, married her and, after two years realised she was a big fraud, it had all been a brilliant act. I separated from her, but she begged and pleaded with me and my family, I weakened and took her back.

Four years later the same happened again, I realised we should never have been together and decided to end the marriage. There were no children.

I should add also that she was extremely violent, but you (foolishly) turn a blind eye to your partner's faults in a marriage, even the serious ones.

Again, her begging and pitifully pleading softened me and I took her back.

One year later, in a rare encounter, we conceived a son. Shortly thereafter my then wife decided it was time to wreak revenge on me for kicking her out twice.

She started playing around and then, when I found out, I started divorce proceedings.

That is when I found out that the law is heavily loaded against the male (at least in England). She was allowed to take our son with her and dictate access terms.

That was ten years ago. I no longer see my son (who is nearly 15), would give anything to see him and have a relationship with him, and will probably never see him again. She has told him I am a worthless XXXX and prevents all contact. There is nothing I can do about it whatsoever. I have been to court for access rights but she simply ignores court orders with impunity.

From my name you will see I am in Spain. I was forced to leave the UK in order to get away from the harassment from a body called the Child Support Agency. I always paid higher maintenance than required but she wanted to screw me to the floor, which the CSA helps mothers to do to fathers in England and Wales.

Life has not been easy, and my ex-wife has now herself removed my son illegally from the UK, so I have even less chance than ever of seeing him.

This would have been your alternative scenario. I am so sorry that your baby was aborted, and I would not have deprived my son of his own life for the world, but the chances are you would have been in my situation before too long. The only difference between your and my situation is that the pain came later for me.

I wish you well my friend. Try to take your mind off it as much as you can. The pain will never leave you, but it will soften with the passage of time.

I should add that I eventually met a normal lady, whom I married and who makes me very happy. She presented me with a beautiful daughter five years ago. My daughter does not replace my son, but she makes the separation a lot more bearable and gives me a focus for my fatherly instincts.

[edit on 26-7-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

Rather than simply offer sympathy, I hope you won't be offended, Tarzan, by my suggesting that we women and men are merely fleshly vehicles, similar to buses, taxis and planes. WE don't create babies. Babies travel via us -- through us. We sometimes regard our children as 'belonging' to us. But they don't. WE don't 'belong' to our parents. Nor did they 'create' us. We're all just channels for the next generation, as were our parents, grandparents, etc.

Someone/something DOES literally create the spark or soul however, and for me, lacking further information at present, that 'someone/something' is God, whatever God actually is. God creates the soul and that soul requires a vehicle (body) to get around in, during its time in this dimension. WE men and women via sex, prompt creation of a vehicle/body. But NOT the soul/spirit that comes to reside in it.

So, if God is able to create a soul, we should be confident in his ability to INSIST that soul be provided a body ... IF -- IF God wants that particular soul to arrive on this planet at a particular time. And there HAVE been times when God DID insist, despite the seeming impossibility of a child's making it here alive. For example, babies have been born to women who have been clinically dead for several days. The mother was kept artificially alive in order doctors could deliver a live child to a clinically dead mother. That's how determined God can be sometimes, when he has a particular plan in mind for not only a child, but for its parents, siblings, wider family and world in general. At other times, babies that have seemed perfectly healthy have, for reasons not understood, died days or months later. And we must accept that God knows what he's doing in those cases, despite the suffering for others.

Several years ago, a woman named Helen Wambaugh conducted research into past lives. She invited university students to take part and they gathered in a large auditorium, lay down on mats and were hypnotised by Wambaugh with suggestions that when they awoke, they would provide details of a past life, if indeed they 'remembered' one or more. Afterwards, the students filled out questionaires, which were analysed. The findings were interesting. A large number of participants said they not only remembered past lives, but remembered prior to their birth in this life. Many participants said they had DELAYED, for as long as they could ... entry into their current body (vehicle). They said they hadn't wanted another life -- had hated the awful confinement in their mother's body -- had hated the idea of being born and having to live another life. Quite a number of participants said .............. that they had deliberately DELAYED entering their body (the one they were now living in) for several hours, days and in some instance ... MONTHS ! At least one person said that in the months before he finally and begrudgingly 'hopped into' his body (his current body) IT HAD BEEN INHABITED by ANOTHER spirit, which had obligingly left and let him in.

Many participants said they'd agreed to be born -- reluctantly -- because they appreciated that it would be good for either their personal growth (growth of their spirit) or that of their parents. Some participants said they had known their parents before, in another life, and didn't particularly like them, but had agreed to return to this set of parents because there were things that needed to be worked out for the good of all the spirits concerned.

Some participants said they'd been offered a new body previously, but AT THE LAST MINUTE, they'd been unable to face it --- and so in those instances, the mother either had a stillbirth, or abortion.

If you can find a copy of Wambaugh's book, you'll realise that the participants often had no belief in past lives prior to taking part. And some of the findings were remarkable. For example, even though the participants were not selected by sex, when their past lives were analysed, it showed that approx. 50% had claimed past life as a woman and 50% as men -- the same percentages as here on earth now. People provided extraordinary detail, such as the type of food utensils etc. they used in the past lives. These turned out to be accurate for the time period of the claimed past life. It's worth reading and it might help you.

The birth of a child involves three people: father, mother, child. God has to balance the interests of all -- not just the potential child. He can always give that child (actually a soul) another body.

It may be that God chose for you and your ex-partner to have this experience. That may be the sole reason God chose for your partner to become pregnant. In God's eyes, you (we) are ALL babies -- ALL travelling separate paths to growth and ultimately to peace and bliss.

God may never have intended for you and your ex-partner to become married or parents together. The pregnancy may have been a learning experience for both of you. Also .. a decision takes two. For all we know, it may have been the child itself who prompted your girlfriend's decision. It may have changed ITS mind about coming here just now

We dont' know what was going through that poor girl's mind. She already had a child. She may have been concerned about bringing another child into such an uncertain world or into a relationship she felt was not meant to be. She already had a child. She was aware of what a massive, all-consuming, life-altering step being a parent is. She may not have felt secure enough in your relationship. We must remember that her needs for security may be completely different to yours, mine or anyone else's.

Tarzan, please be assured that the child's spirit is safe with its creator; is loved, is well and understands what you're feeling. For --- although a baby's body is small and new, the spirits which inhabit those tiny bodies are strong and wise. They are indestructable, they are immortal, eternal. Nothing on earth or anywhere can destroy your child's spirit. It belongs to God and God alone. It wasn't destroyed. Please know that. Everything that happened might have been INTENDED by God from the very moment you and your partner conceived that mortal body.

Please put your mind at rest and know your child wasn't lost. God doesn't lose any of us. One day, God willing, you WILL hold a child in your arms and you'll know that everything that happens is for a reason.

I can only offer my sympathies, which are yours to have. I can't imagine your pain, to lose a child you never knew. Having said that, it was her right under the law as it now stands, not right...but legal.

This is an example of why the abortion on demand ideal that so many espouse needs serious reexamination, and the sooner the better.

Again, Tarz, my sympathies to you.

Originally posted by Scyman
They agreed to have sex, this is a risk when you engage in this act. Just becuase you liberals wanna have rapant sex without repercussions doesn't give you the accuse to kill a baby.

Very inmature comment and one that definitely needs to denied ignorance.

Is after all the way in which species propagate.

But blaming liberalism to sex . . . that is a new one to me. . .