Conspiracy theory versus Conspiracy facts of 9/11

If I knew that, I'd be debating that.

How do you explain it Vushta? Are we just to assume they had private pilot lessons that seemed to not come up anywhere and so recently before the crash?

How do you explain it away? 500 hours of straight Flight Simulator 2004 grinding, and even that wouldn't do justice, just confront him with the basics.

Seriously what are you getting at now?

If you have evidence they were good pilots, lets see it, I have information that says otherwise.

Link 1 - Bottom of Page
Link 2
Link 3

It still stands to scrutiny exactly, with what how much experience Hanjour had, how he banked the plane so sharply going 500 mph and still hit the Pentagon, even if he did skid into it, that's a hard maneuver, really hard on the place too.

How can you support how well the pilots were that flew them on 9/11.

So what exactly are you saying? If they didn't fly the planes, who did?

If I knew that, I'd be debating that.

That really doesn't address what I meant.
I just wanted to know "what you're getting at" for clarification of your point.
Are you saying that you don't know what you're getting at? Thats hard to address one way or the other.

Are we just to assume they had private pilot lessons that seemed to not come up anywhere and so recently before the crash?

We may just as well. You're assuming they needed them.
Theres simply no way we'll ever know all of what they did with all the time before died in the crashes any more than someone would know everything that you do over the course of years even if you were on a "watch list" of some undetermined kind of some undetermined level.

If you have evidence they were good pilots,

How good of a pilot do you have to be to crash a plane?

It still stands to scrutiny exactly, with what how much experience Hanjour had, how he banked the plane so sharply going 500 mph and still hit the Pentagon, even if he did skid into it, that's a hard maneuver, really hard on the place too.

There a couple of valid ways to look at that. One is that the maneuver was the result of a skilled pilot executing a difficult bank. Another is that someone flying by the seat of their pants pulled off a desperate dangerous maneuver without crashing.

How can you support how well the pilots were that flew them on 9/11.

---And we're back at the beginning--what are you implying for an alternative theory?

Remember, the alleged highjackers had "how to fly a commercial plane" manuels that was consficated by the FBI at the aiports.

Another coincidence.

Also none of those highjackers names were on the initial flight lists but yet, we were told that they use fake IDs that's why we don't see them there.

Oh really.

But then in the same breath, they were only able to pinpoint the other 18 from Mohammad "miraclous" passport that survived a fiery crash?

So now we have "FAKE IDs" but "REAL PASSPORTS" to identify the "real" terrorists?



And we are nuts for not believing such hogwash?

[edit on 29-6-2006 by 2smooth4ya]

[edit on 29-6-2006 by 2smooth4ya]

Why do people keep saying they needed to know how to fly well or they needed more training to know how to crash.

All they did was fly into the largest buildings on the east coast. The twin towers being the tallest buildings on the east coast and the pentagon being the largest military building.

When they flew into the towers they were wobbling even though all they had to do was fly straight. Is that a sign of great skills?
With the pentagon, there is no evidence that suggests that they had full control of the plane after making the turn. A turn that wouldn't be difficult if all your going to do is crash the plane.

Remember, the alleged highjackers had "how to fly a commercial plane" manuels that was consficated by the FBI at the aiports.

I missed that one. Got a link?

Also none of those highjackers names were on the initial flight lists but yet, we were told that they use fake IDs that's why we don't see them there.

Missed that too. Unless you're talking about the "victims list" that was published which understandably left their names out. THEY weren't victims.
That would be like listing a mass muderer who kills himself as one of the "victims"

But then in the same breath, they were only able to pinpoint the other 18 from Mohammad "miraclous" passport that survived a fiery crash?

Not clear on this point. Do you mean you think that all the passports were recovered from the collapse sites?

So now we have "FAKE IDs" but "REAL PASSPORTS" to identify the "real" terrorists?

Whats odd about that?
Real passports can be based on fake information. I'm sure it happens most everyday somewhere---and--were they ALL fake as you seem to imply? Just asking.

ALL the terrorists were on the flight lists.

They're not named with the victims however, I think that's where he's getting confused.

Guys,

I sure as hell am not going to be the only one that'll tell you this. A Cessna private plane and 767 are completely different aircraft.

If you cannot even master a Cessna at flying, then how do you plan on mastering a 767, loaded with fuel and passengers.

Honestly, that is a very thick statement you've made, thick of B.S., imcompetence and negligence for flight skills.

Not only did the hijackers have to get ahold of the plane but they then had to disable the transponder, and then reroute themselves straight towards New York City (thus flying an aircraft), knock the throttle up, and oh yeah, "control the ailerons, rudder, etc" to maneuver the plane, and the same goes for the Pentagon impact, ESPECIALLY the pentagon impact.

The point is, you need skill to fly something so large, they lacked that. But you claim they don't need skill to crash, DURRR, that's probably the smartest thing you've all said that makes sense. But hey, they need skill to fly.

Especially with the Pentagon impact, he had to bank the airplane at 500 mph, I don't know about you, but TRAVELLING that fast in a Boeing 757 is putting a huge stress on the plane, not to say it didn't do it, but you're pulling a huge bank and still crashing into the 757. That's still major.

But since you're such an armchair pilot and know how to obviously pilot an aircraft, by all means, please me with your knowledge. I'd rather listen to Zaphod or a few others because of their experience with aircraft, hell I have more credibility over you both as I've spent well enough time around aircraft to know their capabilities, and mainly that's credit to my father who used to work on them.

Originally posted by Masisoar
Guys,

I sure as hell am not going to be the only one that'll tell you this. A Cessna private plane and 767 are completely different aircraft.

If you cannot even master a Cessna at flying, then how do you plan on mastering a 767, loaded with fuel and passengers.

Honestly, that is a very thick statement you've made, thick of B.S., imcompetence and negligence for flight skills.

Not only did the hijackers have to get ahold of the plane but they then had to disable the transponder, and then reroute themselves straight towards New York City (thus flying an aircraft), knock the throttle up, and oh yeah, "control the ailerons, rudder, etc" to maneuver the plane, and the same goes for the Pentagon impact, ESPECIALLY the pentagon impact.

The point is, you need skill to fly something so large, they lacked that. But you claim they don't need skill to crash, DURRR, that's probably the smartest thing you've all said that makes sense. But hey, they need skill to fly.

Especially with the Pentagon impact, he had to bank the airplane at 500 mph, I don't know about you, but TRAVELLING that fast in a Boeing 757 is putting a huge stress on the plane, not to say it didn't do it, but you're pulling a huge bank and still crashing into the 757. That's still major.

But since you're such an armchair pilot and know how to obviously pilot an aircraft, by all means, please me with your knowledge. I'd rather listen to Zaphod or a few others because of their experience with aircraft, hell I have more credibility over you both as I've spent well enough time around aircraft to know their capabilities, and mainly that's credit to my father who used to work on them.

We don't and will never know what exactly went on in the cockpit.

Disable the transponder? I imagine thats as difficult as throwing a switch.
Turn the plane to New York? The pilots could still have been at the controls. Up until 911 all highjacking ended with demands from the highjackers leading to release of the hostages. It would not be hard to imagine that a clever highjacker could have played on this knowledge and requested they head to New York and after that it would been a question of minor flying skills and crashing.

Who were these bad pilots?

There were 19 hijackers, which ones were the pilots? And where are you getting that the pilots were so horrible?
MOST of the hijackers took several pilot training courses, but there were only 4 hijackers who crashed the planes. How do you know the ones who took control of the planes were the bad ones? Also, in all those courses they took you think they didn't learn anything?
One of the hijackers logged 600 hours in the air. I would think you'd learn something wouldn't you?

Where's your source for the 600 hours and the source of the training of the other pilots that prove them to be valid? Are you saying all the hijackers took flying lessons?

Originally posted by Masisoar
Where's your source for the 600 hours and the source of the training of the other pilots that prove them to be valid? Are you saying all the hijackers took flying lessons?

Source:
www.cooperativeresearch.org...

Under the hijackers section...


It was Hanjour that had the 600 hours (possibly the flight 77 pilot). He still sucked though (mostly at landing). So how did he or whoever make that turn? They had absolutely nothing to lose! Also, again, there's no evidence whoever had full control of the plane (the extremely rapid descent may suggest otherwise).


So what's the alternative theory?
Skilled pilots were hiding under the seats or something and popped up when the hijackers needed help?

Since we are talking about sources, why don't you show us some sources that say they were bad at flying. Not landing, but flying.

Here's some sources that say otherwise.

www.faqs.org...

Atta and Shehhi finished up at Huffman and earned their instrument certificates from the FAA in November. In mid-December 2000, they passed their commercial pilot tests and received their licenses.They then began training to fly large jets on a flight simulator. At about the same time, Jarrah began simulator training, also in
Florida but at a different center. By the end of 2000, less than six months after
their arrival, the three pilots on the East Coast were simulating flights on large
jets.

Keep in mind that these are real flight simulators, they weren't just sitting somewhere in front of a monitor with a joystick.

en.wikipedia.org...

Even Hanjour the one who had trouble renting a cessna, had a commercial pilots license.

www.faqs.org...

Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot
certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999.

I missed that one. Got a link?

s3.amazonaws.com...

Missed that too. Unless you're talking about the "victims list" that was published which understandably left their names out. THEY weren't victims.
That would be like listing a mass muderer who kills himself as one of the "victims"

It's funny that you brought that up.

On the link of CNN: www.cnn.com...

If you count the names, there are only 86 on the list. Not one of them are Arab.

How did the CNN list-compiler know that there were 92 people on board?

Not clear on this point. Do you mean you think that all the passports were recovered from the collapse sites?

No just one that I've heard of.

It is assume that it was Mohammed, but it was another "alleged" hijacker.

Most people doesn't know this.

Whats odd about that?
Real passports can be based on fake information. I'm sure it happens most everyday somewhere---and--were they ALL fake as you seem to imply? Just asking.

Why would they need to show their passports for DOMESTIC flights?

[edit on 30-6-2006 by 2smooth4ya]

Originally posted by 2smooth4ya
It's funny that you brought that up.

On the link of CNN: www.cnn.com...

If you count the names, there are only 86 on the list. Not one of them are Arab.

How did the CNN list-compiler know that there were 92 people on board?

How would they not know?
Again, they purposly left off the names of the hijackers on the victims lists...as they weren't victims.

For flight 11:
en.wikipedia.org...

There were five hijackers believed to have participated in the hijacking. Mohamed Atta al Sayed, the ringleader and pilot, was in seat 8D. Satam al-Suqami, who had paid in cash that day, sat in seat 10B. Someone claiming to be Waleed al-Shehri (see inconsistencies) sat in seat 2B, while Wail al-Shehri sat next to him in seat 2A. Abdulaziz al-Omari, who had earlier flown with Atta to Logan Airport from Portland, Maine, was also on this flight.

More about who's believed to be the pilots (forgot about wikipedia):
en.wikipedia.org...

al-Shehhi returned to Germany in March, 2000, and began to learn to fly a jet. Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, one of the most important 9/11 financial organizers, bought a Boeing 747 flight simulator program using al-Shehhi's credit card. Eventually they decided that German flight schools would not work for them, and they decided to train in the United States.

Al-Shehhi was the first of the Hamburg group to leave for the United States. He arrived in Newark, New Jersey on May 29, 2000. Mohammed Atta joined him the next month, and the two began to search for flight schools. Al-Shehhi posed as a body guard of a "Saudi Arabian royal family member" (really Atta) while the two of them took flying lessons in Venice, Florida. They also logged hundreds of hours on a Boeing 727 flight simulator. They received their licenses by December of 2000. Their expenses were paid for by Ali Abdul Aziz Ali. On the 26th or 27th, Atta and Marwan abandoned a Piper Cherokee that had stalled on the runway of Miami International Airport. On the 29th, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-Locka Airport and practised on a Boeing 727 simulator.

Atta's believed to be the Flight 11 pilot.

Already went over the Flight 77 pilot.

en.wikipedia.org...

Jarrah had obtained his license to fly small planes, and began training to fly large jets late in 2000.

Well that's news to my ears, thanks guys

I do still find the Pentagon maneuver questionable, not to keep feeding the conspiracy fire, but that was a pretty banked turn at 500 m.p.h. and still managed to hit the Pentagon, but there's nothing for either side to argue about this. It happened and that's all that can be said.

Their flight experience or their inexperience can't account for how on earth they pulled that off in a 757.

But still guys, Flight Simulators, not to discredit them. But when they have the plane under forced control, and trying to find out where they're going and what to look for and trying to find the plane, I don't see how they kept their bearings, but oh well.

I was obviously schooled on this thanks.

One thing I don't get, if their identities were stolen, they how did they manage to come up with this information on all of them, the "accused hijackers" and if that goes far enough, then isn't the information on the people with accuse actually irrelevant since they were never on the plane?

And if their identities were stolen, how far does this go then, how do you know the difference between the activities of the person that had it stolen and the person actually using the stolen ID?

This just sounds to outrageous, can you clarify it for me.

From what I understand they used their real names when purchasing their tickets.....


August 24-29, 2001: Hijackers Buy 9/11 Plane Tickets Using Their Apparent Real Names

All of the hijackers book their flights for 9/11, using their apparent real names. Most pay using credit cards on the Internet. [Miami Herald, 9/22/2001] At least five tickets are one way only. [Los Angeles Times, 9/18/2001]

The FAA I guess is partly to blame for allowing a couple of the terrorists to slip
Alhazmi and Almihdhar Buy 9/11 Plane Tickets

Hijacker Khalid Almihdhar buys his 9/11 plane ticket on-line using a credit card; Nawaf Alhazmi does the same the next day. [US Congress, 9/26/2002] Both men are put on a terrorist watch list this same day, but the watch list only means they will be stopped if trying to enter or leave the US. Procedures are in place for law enforcement agencies to share watch list information with airlines and airports and such sharing is common, but the FAA and the airlines are not notified about this case, so the purchases raise no red flags. [Los Angeles Times, 9/20/2001] An official later states that had the FAA been properly warned, “they should have been picked up in the reservation process.” [Washington Post, 10/2/2002]

Did they get the list in time? Who knows....

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Again, they purposly left off the names of the hijackers on the victims lists...as they weren't victims.

The same reason why neither American nor United Airlines won't display the offical passenger lists?

That and security surviellence showing them would prove that these alleged hijackers were on the plane.

Also the flight attendant stated that there were 4 hijackers, not 5.

For flight 11:
en.wikipedia.org...

There were five hijackers believed to have participated in the hijacking. Mohamed Atta al Sayed, the ringleader and pilot, was in seat 8D. Satam al-Suqami, who had paid in cash that day, sat in seat 10B. Someone claiming to be Waleed al-Shehri (see inconsistencies) sat in seat 2B, while Wail al-Shehri sat next to him in seat 2A. Abdulaziz al-Omari, who had earlier flown with Atta to Logan Airport from Portland, Maine, was also on this flight.

More about who's believed to be the pilots (forgot about wikipedia):
en.wikipedia.org...

al-Shehhi returned to Germany in March, 2000, and began to learn to fly a jet. Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, one of the most important 9/11 financial organizers, bought a Boeing 747 flight simulator program using al-Shehhi's credit card. Eventually they decided that German flight schools would not work for them, and they decided to train in the United States.

Al-Shehhi was the first of the Hamburg group to leave for the United States. He arrived in Newark, New Jersey on May 29, 2000. Mohammed Atta joined him the next month, and the two began to search for flight schools. Al-Shehhi posed as a body guard of a "Saudi Arabian royal family member" (really Atta) while the two of them took flying lessons in Venice, Florida. They also logged hundreds of hours on a Boeing 727 flight simulator. They received their licenses by December of 2000. Their expenses were paid for by Ali Abdul Aziz Ali. On the 26th or 27th, Atta and Marwan abandoned a Piper Cherokee that had stalled on the runway of Miami International Airport. On the 29th, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-Locka Airport and practised on a Boeing 727 simulator.

Atta's believed to be the Flight 11 pilot.

Already went over the Flight 77 pilot.

en.wikipedia.org...

Jarrah had obtained his license to fly small planes, and began training to fly large jets late in 2000.

Atta's father stated that he talked to his son on September 12th. Should we believe him? Is his claim credible information that gets overlooked?

[edit on 1-7-2006 by 2smooth4ya]

Atta's father stated that he talked to his son on September 12th. Should we believe him? Is his claim credible information that gets overlooked?

He changed his story and dropped his "Poor meek son rap"

CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) -- The father of one of the hijackers who commandeered the first plane that crashed into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, praised the recent terror attacks in London and said many more would follow.

Speaking to CNN producer Ayman Mohyeldin Tuesday in his apartment in the upper-middle-class Cairo suburb of Giza, Mohamed el-Amir said he would like to see more attacks like the July 7 bombings of three London subway trains and a bus that killed 52 people, plus the four bombers.

Displayed prominently in the apartment were pictures of el-Amir's son, Mohamed Atta, the man who is believed to have piloted American Airlines Flight 11 into the north tower of the World Trade Center as part of the attacks on the United States.

El-Amir said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son.

He declared that terror cells around the world were a "nuclear bomb that has now been activated and is ticking."

The man, who gave his age as "at least 70," said he had no sorrow for what happened in London, and said there was a double standard in the way the world viewed the victims in London and victims in the Islamic world.

Cursing in Arabic, el-Amir also denounced Arab leaders and Muslims who condemned the London attacks as being traitors and non-Muslims.

He passionately vowed that he would do anything within his power to encourage more attacks.

When asked if he would allow a CNN crew to videotape another interview with him, el-Amir said he would give his permission -- for a price of $5,000.

That money, he said, would not be kept for himself, but would be donated to someone to carry out another terror attack.

El-Amir said that $5,000 was about how much it would cost to finance another attack in London.

CNN's crew refused to pay for the interview and left after el-Amir's request.

It is CNN policy not to pay people for interviews.

A lawyer by trade, el-Amir had a sign on his apartment door saying he was a consultant.

The security guard for the apartment building said el-Amir had been under surveillance by Egyptian agents for several months after the September 11 attacks,

Atta's father stated that he talked to his son on September 12th. Should we believe him? Is his claim credible information that gets overlooked?

Originally posted by Vushta

Atta's father stated that he talked to his son on September 12th. Should we believe him? Is his claim credible information that gets overlooked?

He changed his story and dropped his "Poor meek son rap"

CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) -- The father of one of the hijackers who commandeered the first plane that crashed into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, praised the recent terror attacks in London and said many more would follow.

Speaking to CNN producer Ayman Mohyeldin Tuesday in his apartment in the upper-middle-class Cairo suburb of Giza, Mohamed el-Amir said he would like to see more attacks like the July 7 bombings of three London subway trains and a bus that killed 52 people, plus the four bombers.

Displayed prominently in the apartment were pictures of el-Amir's son, Mohamed Atta, the man who is believed to have piloted American Airlines Flight 11 into the north tower of the World Trade Center as part of the attacks on the United States.

El-Amir said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son.

He declared that terror cells around the world were a "nuclear bomb that has now been activated and is ticking."

The man, who gave his age as "at least 70," said he had no sorrow for what happened in London, and said there was a double standard in the way the world viewed the victims in London and victims in the Islamic world.

Cursing in Arabic, el-Amir also denounced Arab leaders and Muslims who condemned the London attacks as being traitors and non-Muslims.

He passionately vowed that he would do anything within his power to encourage more attacks.

When asked if he would allow a CNN crew to videotape another interview with him, el-Amir said he would give his permission -- for a price of $5,000.

That money, he said, would not be kept for himself, but would be donated to someone to carry out another terror attack.

El-Amir said that $5,000 was about how much it would cost to finance another attack in London.

CNN's crew refused to pay for the interview and left after el-Amir's request.

It is CNN policy not to pay people for interviews.

A lawyer by trade, el-Amir had a sign on his apartment door saying he was a consultant.

The security guard for the apartment building said el-Amir had been under surveillance by Egyptian agents for several months after the September 11 attacks,

Ok.

That's about as credible as the missile-pod theory.