OK, our own government did it. Now what do we do?

the most realistic route to take seems to be to prepare yourself

Yup Been working on that. We got enough tents and equipment to equip a small army of about eighty. Learned all the skills we need to survive, little things like candle making, bread making in an outdoor oven. We can sew our own clothes, hell we can even hold a feast fit for Royalty in our mess tent... and our swords are sharpened, our armour polished and our skills honed...

But don't ask... no recruiting allowed here

House has solar power and deisel backup... lots of firewood out back

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
ThatsJustWeird - the Thread that you authored & linked to from here it self shows that the Government was aware that the Terrorists were planning on executing a horrific attack against us before 9/11 took place. The very fact that those Retards with box cutters actually pulled it off is a sign of the Incompetent Failure (if not even worse = Intentional Treason) of the entire Government.

They knew somethig was being planned. But there is no evidence they knew when (as that link shows, the attacks were originally slated for late spring or early summer). Also, again....the government is huge. You're saying the National Park Service or National Weather Service are just as responisble as the CIA or FBI? You're right though this was a failure. These failures started WAY before the past two admins were even thought about. You can go back to when some genius thought it would be good to keep the FBI and our other Intel agencies from sharing vital info. You can go back to whoever decided to befriend these people when fighting against our enemies then abandon them. You can go back to the years of just not caring or paying attention to them (it wasn't until after the TWA crash that real funding for fighting terrorism was even considered - then it was too late)

9/11 happened because of years and years of letting our guard down, lack of foresight, and years of....I guess smugness would be the word. Thinking they can't touch us here.

Why then was the Bush Administration - the Administration that has been in power since 2001 - never held accountable?

Accountable for what? Sins of the past?
And who would you hold accountable? The Bush admin wasn't even completed at the time.

We had Condoleezza Rice up there saying that "We had no idea that an attack which used airplanes as missiles was even conceivable" & "we had no actionable intelligence on the terrorists prior to 9/11" - both complete LIES! Does "Able Danger" ring a bell?

Welcome to Washington Politics. And if she said that about no actionable intelligence, that's more true than not. What exactly do you do? Ground every plane for months looking for them? You also have to remember before 9/11...do you think the CIA and our Intel agencies have all the manpower, resources, and power they have today? It's not even close.

I have an idea - instead of "Pre-Emptively" Invading the entire world - why don't we just actually Defend the Borders of the U.S.? If we didn't have all of these Resources being sucked away by the
War in Iraq - then Defending our own Borders would not even be an issue right now!

Who said defending the borders are an issue?
Are you talking about immigration or terrorism?

Also the problem is that even if there was some specific alert concerning 0911, it would be hidden in lots of other reports and warning. The agencies were in much worse conditions than German Abwehr trying to get info on the D-Day (as the Allied choices were much more limited than the terrorrist ones and one doesn't easily conceal hundreds of ships, but twenty people are just a drop in the sea).
It is easy now, in hindsight, say "this was a 0911 warning, lets hang the people who overlooked it high", but many of the warnings are about as clear as Nostradamus' prophecies "Be warned: something will somewhere sometimes happen."...

After all when using the D-Day analogy, the only true info on date and place of the invasion Abwehr got was intentionally leaked by the Brits via an double agent who the Germans didn't trust.

We are apathetic and pathetic when it comes to making any powerful entity, government or corporate anymore. There is reason for this and its not just the fact that everyone is to busy trying to tread water. Its like the tension on a bow string pulling back. I believe we are heading towards the biggest spirtual awakening mankind has had in our history, when this happens we will throw off the chains for good.

You can feel it in the air. It builds up year after year, we have relief valves taking some of the energy away, but it then comes back stronger than ever.

I believe we are building up this momentum towards our destiny. This will come in six years...

You can go back to when some genius thought it would be good to keep the FBI and our other Intel agencies from sharing vital info. You can go back to whoever decided to befriend these people when fighting against our enemies then abandon them. (= CIA BTW)

9/11 happened because of years and years of letting our guard down, lack of foresight, and years of....I guess smugness would be the word. Thinking they can't touch us here.

Yes I agree. Very bad moves and we paid the price.

And who would you hold accountable? The Bush admin wasn't even completed at the time.

Here I Disagree. The Bush Administration was in power 8 months prior to 9/11. Bush's Cabinet was formed by then - Bush was even warned (in a PDB) that the Terrorists were looking to attack us at home before the attack took place.

What exactly do you do? Ground every plane for months looking for them?

No it is more simple than that - how did these Losers even get into the country to begin with? I guarantee that a few of them were already on Terrorist watchlists! People at the INS should have been fired. Hey here is another good idea - lets be a little more selective about who we give a Visa.

quote: I have an idea - instead of "Pre-Emptively" Invading the entire world - why don't we just actually Defend the Borders of the U.S.? If we didn't have all of these Resources being sucked away by the War in Iraq - then Defending our own Borders would not even be an issue right now!


Are you talking about immigration or terrorism?

BOTH.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

You're saying the National Park Service or National Weather Service are just as responisble as the CIA or FBI?

Hmmm I don't recall anyone saying the National Park Service or National Weather Service are just as responsible. But perhaps that is why all this has been going on for so long, and nothing can really be done about it simply because there is no one body or group to blame.

We can impeach a President, arrest politicians caught with their hands in the cookie jar, even punish the little guy like soldiers caught up in a miserable war taking things too far. But it won't stop anything. Short of a major revolution to toss em ALL out, what else is there? And if we did that, well who would take over? Would they be any better? Would they speak for all of us?

But we can, all of us be watch dogs. Weed out the bad individuals one at a time if we have to. The less we do, the more complacent we become... the more they can do as they wish.


As to the National Weather Service, never thought about it, but maybe they have a plot to control us with weather satelites? Brew up a killer storm?

And the National Park Service? Man those guys make me get a permit just to photograph the trees!! [There are signs in the San Fransico area parks that state this!]

Take a gander at www.abovetopsecret.com...

They didn't leave a single pic out, they're all forged, anything the media feeds us is *t3h B5* got it? i don't know if the US gov't did it alone in fact i doubt it, but they're complicit, pure and simple. and they started two wars for their own amusement.

After all when using the D-Day analogy, the only true info on date and place of the invasion Abwehr got was intentionally leaked by the Brits via an double agent who the Germans didn't trust.

Of course the other side of this is that even back then the government was good enough to hide this knowledge from the enemy and its people. Would they not be better at it now?

What do we do?

We spread the truth to as many people as possible! Revolution is the only way, but most people are too content in their lives watching their soap operas and reality TV to even lift a finger, research ANYTHING, or even care what's really going on in the world. To them, the news is the absolute truth. The other day my buddy was watching TV at my house, and it was fox news talking about death, rape and murder etc etc etc. I gave him the remote and said "Here you go, I'm sure there's something better on". And he replied with "but it's the news!!!"

What do we do?

Vote them out.

Originally posted by zorgon

Now what do we do?

What we usually do these days... NOTHING We talk about it, we belly ache about it to anyone who will listen, but I see no one taking up arms.

When I moved here from Canada I heard on the CB radio that there was going to be a 6 cent per gallon increase on deisel feul. The truckers were driving to Washington to circle the White House.... now look at the gas price hikes... I see no marches, no serious boycotts...

If thats what has become of America's spirit on gas prices I see no hope on bigger issues.

Have we become WUSSES??? To chicken or lazy to stand up for a cause? Or are we afraid we might "disappear in the night" if we stand up?


[Wanna send a message to the oil boys? Boycott ONE petrol company! Americans will not go without gas, but what would happen if we all stop buying say Exxon?..... just a though

]


I think that unless there is irrefutable proof in writing and in duplicate, dropped on CNN's desk, we will do nothing.

But perhaps there is a ray of sunshine. All the current arrests of top level polititions for "misconduct" lately. Maybe , just maybe ...

Gas prices? Of course car drivers of the entire country could blockade Washington, but you know, people out there protest by... buying SUVs and minivans! If at least they could learn to use a bicycle and go for public transport and biodiesel vehicles, but they are so brainwashed they can't even do that. I never bought the whole story behind the movie "Mad Max" until recently...

Seriously, impeachment would hardly work. I'd say a Coup would work, but there was already a Coup in Washington, and this was the Coup of 2001 when Bush and his cabal invaded Washington backed by a US Supreme Court order that cancelled electoral recount.

By now, the only thing that would work is if a million protesters such as the ones who gathered on Capitol Hill for protesting against the war would stop staying on their ground and barking and INVADE THE DAMN CONGRESS while the President's there. Gonzales, Cheney, Bush, Rove, and all these pigs would have their asses wiped out for good, and they would'nt have any defense. That would be a de facto, and unrepressable regime change, and would give way to a political revolution. But hey I'm just dreaming here...

[edit on 23/6/06 by Echtelion]

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
30-40 years ago things were MUCH worse in ever aspect of the government and in general yet here we are.

Relevance?

People have been saying what you just said for decades. When do these "worst of times" finally come?

Since when am I everyone else? If I'm not, then you shouldn't address me as if I'm everyone else. You really need to learn how to present a valid argument.

I didn't even say the "worst of times" were approaching; I just said one could merely prepare for them, as in a precaution. From my understanding it's common wisdom that you're better off overshooting safety than undershooting it, but regardless, another flaw in your logic is that you seem to speaking as if the "worst of times" are not only suggested to be coming in my post, but are already here, and thus your 'things were worse 30-40 years ago' statement. I can't make any relevance out of it in any other context.

I would place an economic bellying-out somewhere in the next ten or fifteen years to put it safely.

And maybe you can read over this before posting a response.

Originally posted by zorgon
We got enough tents and equipment to equip a small army of about eighty. Learned all the skills we need to survive, little things like candle making, bread making in an outdoor oven. We can sew our own clothes, hell we can even hold a feast fit for Royalty in our mess tent... and our swords are sharpened, our armour polished and our skills honed...

But don't ask... no recruiting allowed here

House has solar power and deisel backup... lots of firewood out back

Do you do reenactments, maybe?

I'd like to be totally on solar power eventually, with a manual generator as back-up. Food isn't that big of a problem given that you live in a somewhat rural area. I started picking up books on wild edibles and maintaining vegetable gardens and etc. a while ago, and the amount of wild edibles available most anywhere is amazing. The way I was raised, and I expect by the way most people think, it used to be amazing to imagine how whole groups of nomads could have possibly survived off of only hunting and gathering. Not so much of a secret to me now, though. If you wanted to rely heavily on gathering, though, you'd have to be alright with eating mostly salads unless you also cultivated and/or trapped or something. Walden's some inspirational reading, too.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I believe we are building up this momentum towards our destiny. This will come in six years...

I can't help but feel the same way intuitively. :-/

Originally posted by Echtelion
By now, the only thing that would work is if a million protesters such as the ones who gathered on Capitol Hill for protesting against the war would stop staying on their ground and barking and INVADE THE DAMN CONGRESS while the President's there. Gonzales, Cheney, Bush, Rove, and all these pigs would have their asses wiped out for good, and they would'nt have any defense. That would be a de facto, and unrepressable regime change, and would give way to a political revolution. But hey I'm just dreaming here...

[edit on 23/6/06 by Echtelion]

We'd need much more than a million people I think? The national guard would get called up and then there'd be actual military with tanks and # . Maybe if everyone had a rifle or something?

On top of that...what about the millions of ignorant people living here who don't want to change their lives because they're afraid? Introduce change in the hearts of the fearful will cause a civil war. This will be a brother fighting brother conflict that may only be ended after a foreign invasion force makes us unite.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by biggie smalls]

A lot of people have problems with the "vote them out" option because a lot of people feel the voting process is less than fair (ie rigged), that the choices given aren't really choices (you can have guy A, guy B, and sometimes even guy C, all of whome suck) and that a lot of votes aren't really votes For a person but rather a vote Against the other person (so and so won not because it was who we wanted, we just really didn't want the Other guy, so this is what we are Stuck With)

A "None Of The Above" option needs to be included on the ballots if we the people are expected to have any kind of rational input into the electoral process.

Your Best vote is with your dollar. Spend wisely, don't contribute to things you don't believe in. An organized tax revolt would send a louder message than an empeachement or a coup...

Personally, I prefer a more violent approach. It's faster and I find it to be more satisfying.

Originally posted by 8th
Ok. We know, and have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Government of the United States has 'masterminded' 9/11.

Does it make you feel safer to come to the conclusion that our elected leaders (I assume you mean elected leaders because government is too broad of a term for implications such as these) masterminded 9/11? I just cannot fathom radical Muslims willing to kill themselves for George Bush & Company, but hey stranger things have happened I guess. Anyhow, is it so hard to believe that 'terrorist' organizations really exist and really want people like you and me to die? I tell ya, Bush and Cheney are a lot smarter than I give them credit for if they can orchestrate an attack such as this after only being in office 9 months.

I've heard a few intelligent arguments as to why people think the government did it. But, the big picture just says 'no'. Logic and common sense disputes it entirely. Anyhow, I just don't get it though, why do think this?

lol, Nice try BS

Originally posted by bsbray11
Relevance?

Your quote...

"So unless things change, the most realistic route to take seems to be to prepare yourself for the worst of times domestically"

Suggesting that if things don't change the "worst of times domestically" will be upon us. Do you have one shred of evidence that things will match or surpass how bad things were 30-40 years ago?

People have been saying what you just said for decades. When do these "worst of times" finally come?

Since when am I everyone else? If I'm not, then you shouldn't address me as if I'm everyone else. You really need to learn how to present a valid argument.

I matched my quote with your quote so you can see that your quote is based on something that was never said.

Where exactly did I say you were everyone else?

I stated that people have said the exact same thing you just said. I'm not sure how you could have possibly misquoted me....


The question is a valid question. If people were saying the EXACT same thing decades ago, then shouldn't that spark a few questions? Like, what if you're (in general, not talking to you) wrong?
Will you spend your whole life being paranoid and preparing for something that won't happen?

I didn't even say the "worst of times" were approaching

Your quote again
"So unless things change, the most realistic route to take seems to be to prepare yourself for the worst of times domestically"
Strongly suggests that you believe that if things don't change, they are approaching.

but regardless, another flaw in your logic is that you seem to speaking as if the "worst of times" are not only suggested to be coming in my post, but are already here, and thus your 'things were worse 30-40 years ago' statement. I can't make any relevance out of it in any other context.

The only flaw is your inability to understand simple concepts....

You suggested that we should prepare for the worst of times. Meaning we should prepare for a time worst than 30-40+ years ago. Again, what is this based on? If things didn't get worse then, why do you believe they would get worse now?

Originally posted by 8th
Ok. We know, and have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Government of the United States has 'masterminded' 9/11.
Now what do we do? What actions do we take? Who do we talk to? Who can we trust?

I think its time to fight the terrorists.

Funny but I thought that a foreign government was the mastermind of 911 with complicity of elements of the US government. The white house had compartmentalized knowledge of what happened.

Originally posted by SKMDC1
What do we do?

Vote them out.

Well we had the chance... but what did we do? Voted Bush and his buddies right back in

Unless of course there is another conspiracy here and the votes were fixed

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Hand em all a Rifle - put em on a Plane to Iraq and let THEM fight it out. After all THEY wanted the War.

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA! PERFECT! Very good my friend - I think that just might work! Lets call it the "Draft Republicans for Victory in Iraq" plan!

[edit on 23-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Great! Now what about the democrats that voted for the war?! oh you forgot them. Good Job being blinded by your partisan spirit!

Originally posted by torbjon
A lot of people have problems with the "vote them out" option because a lot of people feel the voting process is less than fair (ie rigged), that the choices given aren't really choices (you can have guy A, guy B, and sometimes even guy C, all of whome suck) and that a lot of votes aren't really votes For a person but rather a vote Against the other person (so and so won not because it was who we wanted, we just really didn't want the Other guy, so this is what we are Stuck With)

I agree. The lesser of two idiots is not a good choice, and it's all we've had to choose from in recent memory. However, I think the current batch have gone well beyond the typical "idiot self serving politician" mode and are now firmly entrenched in the "undermining everything our society stands for" mode and hence I'll gladly take another Clintonian idiot if it means getting rid of this bunch.