Should Terri Schiavo be allowed to die. / 10/22/04 UPDATE

So quality of life = Death? Please explain?

Well, of course death is preferable than living as a retarded vegetable.

That is your opinion how can your opinion be the universal truth?

Let me pose a scenario... Someone puts a person in a cell and locks the door.

We then refuse food and water until they die.

There is not a court in the world that would not call that murder.

Whats the difference?

The differences are many...

1. Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. She's been like this for over a decade, and isn't getting any better, just worse.

2. You could give Terri all the food and water you want, but it isn't going to help her.

3. Her cerebral cortex is all but gone. It's highly doubtful she even has a functioning nervous system of any capacity, so unlikely she "feels" anything.

4. Terri is likewise a prisoner though, but in her own body. The prisoner in your example can at least play tic-tac-toe, speak with other prisoners or the guard, etc. Terri doesn't even have such luxuries, she's completely unable to communicate with the world. Can you imagine such a position?

We show terminal pets more compassion than we do our fellow man. We still see terminal patients today who want to end their suffering of their own will, and yet are denied it by law.

In this case, the law provides that decision making power to the spouse, and yet still others continue to try and revert it....even though time after time, the law is made very clear...

To answer the question, yes, I would certainly want my wife to pull the plug if I was terminal and showed no signs of coming out it (and if one waited 15 years for me, I'd haunt them till the end of their days! ).

Originally posted by BlackJackal
That is your opinion how can your opinion be the universal truth?

All I did was state my opinion in answer to your question.

Nowhere did I add "this is the universal truth".

Originally posted by Gazrok

To answer the question, yes, I would certainly want my wife to pull the plug if I was terminal and showed no signs of coming out it (and if one waited 15 years for me, I'd haunt them till the end of their days!

).

I could not agree more Gazrok. I would not want to live that way.

I posted this in another Schiavo thread, but its appropriate place is probably here.

From last night's Scarborough Country on MSNBC:

There's a lot of misinformation about Terri Schiavo's medical condition. Dr. William Hammersfahr, a neurologist who was nominated for the Nobel Prize for his work in medicine and physiology, has treated Terri Schiavo. He now joins Scarborough Country to clarify Terri's current medical condition.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I saw it last night on TV and it was shocking. Unfortunately they've made this video so it only works on Windows and have I Mac so I can't verify it works, but hopefully all you Windows people can see it.

In the discussion of Terri’s case there are many things that you and I do not know.

1. First and foremost many doctors say that she is in a persistent vegetative state however many others say that she is not. Regardless let us assume she is in a persistent vegetative state.

An 86 year old patient by the name of Carrie Coons was declared by doctors to be in a persistent vegetative state in April of 1989. Mrs. Coons emerged from this “unrecoverable” state just two days after a judge ordered her feeding tube could be removed.

www.christianliferesources.com...
home.vicnet.net.au...

A lady by the name of Barbara Brashers was diagnosed with PVS and she also came out of it. Now she can converse with friends, speak in full sentences and even recall events that took place while she was supposedly in PVS.

www.vshl.org...

And the list of patients who have recovered from PVS could go on forever.

So the question is how do you and I know that Terri is not going to get better? All we know is what we are being told. None of us have personally seen Terri and none of us have any clue if she can get better or not, not even the doctors as proven by the numerous cases of individuals recovering from PVS.

So Why when we do not know for sure if a patient can recover do we kill them?

2. This brings me to your next point about giving her food and water. There are several sources claiming that starvation is a painless and dignified way to die.

www.newsmax.com...


However, another patient, Kate Adamson, who recovered from PVS states that having her feeding tube removed was torture.

Kate Adamson’s feeding tube was at one point removed for a full eight days before being reinserted due to the intervention of her husband (also a competent lawyer).
Frequently described by medical authorities as a humane way to die, Kate - now as vibrant and beautiful as before her stroke - testified before the crowd of Terri’s family and supporters that this form of legalized execution was “one of the most painful experiences you can imagine." Unable to respond or to indicate awareness, Kate Adamson asserts, “I was just like Terri…but I was alive! I could hear every word. They were saying ‘shall we just not treat her?’...I suffered excruciating misery in silence.”

www.lifesite.net...

So, on one hand you have people saying starvation is a completely painless way to die, people who have never starved mind you. And, on the other someone who has experienced the pain comparing it to torture.

So if indeed this is a painful experience wouldn’t it be a violation of Terri’s 8th amendment rights?

3. How do you know her Cortex is gone? All you know is the information Michael Schiavo has allowed to be released. This information is contested by Terri’s Parents wouldn’t it be wise to hear the full story before passing a death sentence?

4. The fact of the matter is that you have two sides, one fighting for life and another fighting for death. In your case Gazrok you would like to have the tube pulled and that is your prerogative, in my case I would like it to remain in. In Terri’s case we do not know what she would want, only what her parents would want and what her estranged husband would want. Shouldn’t we err on the side of life?



Because if we err incorrectly on the side of death there is no going back.

Originally posted by Questor
All I did was state my opinion in answer to your question.

Nowhere did I add "this is the universal truth".

Good. So your opinion is the same as that of Michael Schiavo is that correct?

If it is how do you know for sure this is the same opinion that Terri Schiavo would have?

I'm torn partly because there is conflicting info from both sides.

It's not right to starve someone to death. The thing that crossed my mind the other day was 500 years ago if a baby was born several weeks premature, it was probably going to mean death for the baby. Yet the other day I saw where a baby that weighed 8 ounces at birth was sent home from the hospital. We have medical technology now that saved the child's life. 500 years ago when someone suffered something like Terri Schiavo they probably didn't make it for too long. We have the ability to keep her alive in today's world in the hope that she recovers.

I'll repeat I have too much conflicting info that I hear to know 100% what I think should be done, although not starvation.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Good. So your opinion is the same as that of Michael Schiavo is that correct?

If it is how do you know for sure this is the same opinion that Terri Schiavo would have?

My answer was to your question:

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Let me pose a question to everyone here.

1. If your Wife/ Husband were left Severely retarded due to an accident or chemical imbalance and all they needed to remain alive was a feeding tube, Would you pull it?

2. Same as above, but what if it was your Son/ Daughter?

Lastly, if you say yes you would pull the tube please explain your reasoning and NO you cannot say because they wouldn't want to live that way as an easy way out.

My answer has nothing to do with the Schiavo's.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by Questor]

the woman pictured above was taken into custody after trying to get water to Terri today.

Originally posted by elevatedone

the woman pictured above was taken into custody after trying to get water to Terri today.

Thats what she gets, she should be minding here own. She also knew she was going to be arested.

So, you wouldn't try to help someone who was hungry or thirsty ?

What if it was a relative of yours ?

Originally posted by elevatedone
So, you wouldn't try to help someone who was hungry or thirsty ?

What if it was a relative of yours ?

I would go with thier wishes if it was mine. If it was mine I would make sure that the people that where fighting me where arested. Its my life stay out. I feel that people should leave them alone, its between them.

Here's an update on Terri's condition :

As of Friday morning, Terri Schiavo, 41, had been without food or water for almost seven days and was showing signs of dehydration — flaky skin, dry tongue and lips, and sunken eyes

news.yahoo.com.../ap/20050325/ap_ on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_142

This is breaking my heart.... I really hope she isn't feeling the pain.

You guys know hunger pain right ? That feeling deep down in your stomach, when you want something to eat. What about when your thirsty, your dry mouth, parched throat... glass of water sure tastes good doesn't it...

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

SEMINOLE, Fla. - A man was arrested after trying to steal a weapon from a gun shop so he could "take some action and rescue Terri Schiavo," authorities said.



Michael W. Mitchell, of Rockford, Ill., entered Randall's Firearms Inc. in Seminole just before 6 p.m. Thursday with a box cutter and tried to steal a gun, said Marianne Pasha, a spokeswoman for the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.


Mitchell, 50, told deputies he wanted to "take some action and rescue Terri Schiavo" after he visited the Pinellas Park hospice where she lives, Pasha said.

news.yahoo.com.../ap/2005032 5/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_arrest_4

Randy McKenzie, the owner of Randall's Firearms, said Mitchell pulled out the box cutter and broke the glass on a couple of display cases.


"He told me if I wasn't on Terri's side then I wasn't on God's side, either," McKenzie told The Associated Press.


McKenzie said he then pointed his own gun at Mitchell and ordered him to lie on the ground. But Mitchell fled out the store's back door before police arrived, he said.


Mitchell was later arrested in a parking lot and was scheduled to appear in court Friday. He was being held on $125,000 bond on charges of attempted armed robbery, aggravated assault and criminal mischief, officials said.

Ok I am pretty heartless....I mean I laughed at the new state vegetable of Florida joke and all but I have to chime in on this.

Show me a living will and I will let you kill her. To me, her husband gave up rights of guardianship when he took on a girlfriend. That is a direct conflict of interest. Because you can't show me a living will signed by this woman, I think killing her is wrong. Why can't her parents get guardianship? Because the husband wants the insurance money? maybe? Why can't he just not walk away and say fine? Maybe he is telling the truth about her saying she never would want to live like this....I know I have said it in conversations with girlfriends...but did I really mean it? Hell I have never really put that much thought into it....so did she when she mentioned it to him? This case is a slippery slope...but death is final.....what if inside her mind is the best experience she has ever imagined going on right now...we don't know....what if all she sees is butterflies and moonbeams...we don't know....she is not in pain....let her live.

I think I am gonna drive to Florida and take a box cutter into a gun store...no wait...already been done and that was a BAD IDEA!...hmmm, I am gonna rob a GUN STORE...with a razor.....wow.....I wonder if it was bong hit #3 or bong hit #4 that made him think that was a GREAT IDEA! DUDE you should rescue her...yeah man...i just need a gun or something....here dude..take this box cutter...it worked for those hijackers...go get you a gun...yeah dude...i'm there...here I come Terry........jesus what an idiot...he must be from the same gene pool as the people that bomb abortion clinics to protest "killings".

I would go in AMERICAN NINJA style...scale the building, silently take out the guards, yada yada, rescue her, throw a smoke bomb and poof I am back in the bitchin van with my Master.....but thats just me

The people that say kill her are the same people that would stomp unwanted kittens.

Alright, so letting her die with dignity is barabaric...but slowly letting her body decay over the course of 15 YEARS is completely humane.

I'd rather see euthanasia than watch a person die from no food. First steps in allowing euthanasia..