Gay marriage. Your View?

Thanks for sharing paulthefourth


Really?

2 for banning gay marriages, and . .. ..
24 against banning gay marriage?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Really?

2 for banning gay marriages, and . .. ..
24 against banning gay marriage?

Hopefully not terribly surprising for a site devoted to "Deny"-ing "Ignorance".

Now this is clearly not a "scientific" study, but a 12-1 preponderance in favor of full protection under secular law does seem pretty impressive.

And to repeat a point brought up earlier: the primary objection to gay marriage is that God doesn't like it. Well, that may well be. But the way I figure it is, if God doesn't like it, then God, as the omnipotent Creater of All, is probably pretty capable of dealing with it him/herself. Somehow I doubt God needs any help from humans on this. And in any case, in the US at least, by design at least, sectarian beliefs have no place in secular law.

Regarding stereotypes - part of the power of stereotypes is that they are often based in some degree of truth... wildly warped to be sure. It is no doubt true that some gay men think of nothing but their next 'encounter', some gay women are total man-hating bigots, and some straight men are nothing more than the pigs the man-hating bigots claim they are.

But Astyanax has the right of it:

But in the end, none of this matters. Some people will conform to stereotype, some won't. And even if they all did, what of it? People are allowed to be different. Their being different doesn't threaten anybody else, whatever a few scared, closed-minded folk might think.

I'm all for gay marriage.

People seem to have a really tough time dealing with things being legal but not being within their personal moral boundaries.

Why aren't these same people rallying to illegalize pornography? Personally, I hate the stuff. Not in my house, not on my computer, and my husband darn well better not be looking at it. But illegal? As long as it's not the kiddie variety, no way. Those are my personal values, and I recognize that to certain people, it's a way of life. Let them have it, I say, as long as I don't have to look at it!

And what about adultery? It's one of the 10 commandments. Why no legislation to ban that? I'd say that's more detrimental to society than gay marriage could ever be.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to participate in it.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by SKMDC1
Homosexuality isn't a "choice" it's part of being a human being. Just like race, gender, or any other thing that makes a human an individual.

I am sorry but I happen to know you are wrong.

I'm sorry. I thought we were all mortals here. I didn't realize God Almighty was a member of ATS.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Some people do not have a choice,

Well, let's just talk about them, then. Shall we?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
but some people do have a choice. Lets say you are at the peak of your sexuality, and on top of that have a way above average labido. Then lets say you have a self-esteem problem due to appearance, women sence it and wont give you the time of day. You get so all you can think about is sex, but stay a virgin until you just cannot stand it.

Then you find that some gay men do not care about you being over weight or whatever your appearance problem is, all they care about is your genitalia. Flesh is flesh, its either go ahead and experience the touch of another human or rape someone. Your moral values wont let you hurt another person so you give in and have sex with gay men. You then get used to it and it becomes who you are.

You made a choice.

And this type of at-least-its-better-than-rape relationship leads to marraige how often?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Maybe if you held out long enough, you would have found a woman that understood you and finally were touched by another human, and thank your higher power it was a woman, the gender you wanted to be with all along.

What stocks should I invest in? Who's gonna win the World Cup? It must be nice to be omnipotent.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
This was me. I lost the weight, met that woman just in time and gained enough self-esteem to become a Firefighter. Who knows how many lives I have saved, and I know if I had made the wrong choice, personally I would never have had the self-esteem to even think about Fire/rescue. It is about choice in a lot of cases. Some are born into it, some are not. For those that are not, a society that frowns apon that behavior may hold out long enough to make the right choice.

Why not call it a "different" choice rather than a "right" choice? And what makes you think your experience is a "typical" experience or that you know what everyone else experiences? I don't think the "i'm too fat to get a girl so I'll settle for a guy" argument is valid for denying an entire population the right to marraige.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I am sorry to break this to you, but the love for the oposite sex really does have greater depth than same sex love, it is just the way nature works.

What ever happened to Atlantis? Is Nessie real? What was the appendix used for? Did the Dinosaurs have feathers?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I love my friends, but the love I have for my wife... together we can create life.... this vessel that holds a soul... it means more than man on man sex.... more than man on man love.

No. What it means is you are straight and demand everyone else exist in your image. I've never read such arrogant nonsense. Imagine telling people their love isn't of the same depth as yours. Please. Besides, what does love have to do with the right to get married anyway? Love is rare. Marraige is not. A man and woman don't have to "prove" they are in love to get married, do they? All "vessels of the soul" babies aren't born out of love are they?

I'd say it's totally irrelevant to me, but that wouldn't be 100% accurate. Anything that denies a basic right to someone does have relevance to me. I just don't give it a lot of thought because (selfish me) it doesn't impact me directly.

For the life of me, I don't understand why it's even an issue. Of all the stuff going on in the world, for our lawmakers to concern themselves with topics like gay marriage, or "holiday trees" or the myriad of other trivial things they concentrate on is astounding. (I'm saying "trivial" in the grand scope. I'm sure this isn't a trivial issue for those to whom it applies).

No one intends to force any particular religious group to recognize gay marriage. It's a legal thing. Jeez, let 'em have the ability to form a partnership recognized by the courts.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Originally posted by yeahright

For the life of me, I don't understand why it's even an issue. Of all the stuff going on in the world, for our lawmakers to concern themselves with topics like gay marriage, or "holiday trees" or the myriad of other trivial things they concentrate on is astounding. (I'm saying "trivial" in the grand scope. I'm sure this isn't a trivial issue for those to whom it applies).

I tend to agree with you. I think it may border on unconstitutional, to say the very least. Perhaps the whole arguement is being utilized as a diversionary tactic to take our attention away from matters that really are important. Perhaps they know it will never be an added ammendment to our constitution, at least in the way they are portraying it.

Perhaps? I think that's exactly what it is. We, as a whole, get the government we deserve. And as long as the participating electorate shows concern over issues like gay marriage, those issues will be used to distract us from the topics that really merit attention. The old misdirection ploy. Same as it ever was.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I'm sorry to break this to you, but the love for the oposite sex really does have greater depth than same sex love, it is just the way nature works.

Upon what is this based? Show me some formula that quantifies love so that you and I can compare numbers. Show me the device that can measure love. Prove to me that you love your spouse more than I love mine.

I have had relationships with both men and women. I can't love men in a romantic way. That doesn't mean that others can't. I would never presume to speak for all women and say that they can't love men deeply and truly. You can't tell me what I feel for my spouse. No one can.

I can say that there is nothing in the marriage laws in the US that says couples must prove a certain amount of love for one another before they can marry. Not only do I find your post to be not well thought out, I find it to be irrelevant to the issue.

Well on gay marriage, I couldn't care less (yes couldn't) could is wrong phrasing and defeats the point (sorry but, USA learn something) I fell that If you think that gay marriage is wrong, then don't "be" gay and certainly don't marry one (they are the devil.) I think that people need to realise that people don't "choose" to be gay, they just are gay. I am straight however but have a gay brother and love him yes love him. Is that gay? No its not, it's something I can't help either. Get my point? Homophobics need to grow up imo.

mod edit: censor circumvention

[edit on 15-6-2006 by sanctum]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Benovolent Heratic, I did not mean to offend you about the we make life statement.

You didn't offend me at all.

It is just hard for me to articulate the very big difference between love for the other gender and same gender love.

That's because there isn't one. If you were gay, you'd feel like all women were like your sister. You couldn't have a romantic love for a woman. That's why they call it gay.

There is a difference. Men and women are different from each other, this is what makes that love so special, we are ying and yang, we balance each other out.

For YOU, that's the way it is. But if you can't respect that it's different for gay people, even if you don't fully understand it, then you're not really going to 'get' gay people.

And that's ok. There's no need for everyone to understand or agree.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And that's ok.

There's no need for everyone to understand or agree.

I agree BH. However, I think when that lack of understanding is the basis for denying rights, then it does become a problem. I don't get gay people either. I've been married to a beautiful woman for 10 years and counting. But I don't have to "get" gay people to see that they are part of the human condition and should be allowed the same rights as anyone else.

Originally posted by paulthefourth
ZT - I'm truly sorry that you have such a low opinion of other gay men just because of the few experiences you had with them - You did say you could count on one hand the # of partners you had in another thread - Maybe you were looking in the wrong places - maybe you just never met 'the one' - I think you just gave up too early and gave in to the pressure society puts on gay men to 'stop' being gay

I've been in love 3 times. The last one (ended 11 years ago - we lived together for 8 years). He caught Hep B, infected me, I was treated with serum and other meds and never got sick. We split because the man of my life was a whore behind my back. You would have never known it if you met him. Very smart, very warm, funny, lovable, an overall great guy. Masters degree from Peabody Conservatory, hugely popular classical violist in the Northeastern states. He's a musician in demand. He lived a double life behind my back. He was giving blowjobs to my straight neighbors while I was a work, working over peoole in reststops, public parks, mall restrooms (where he finally was arrested - and denied to me what he did - I believed him - stupid me). I found all this out the week after we split. Seems all my gay friends new and didn't tell me (nice friends). Talked to him 2 years back. He's a sex addict and has been in and out of 12-step programs. He's HIV+ now, carries Hep B, has oral herpes, and also carries the human papiloma virus. Glad he's not in my life anymore....although I dearly loved him....like Sting said, "If you love someone set them free." I did.

Prior to that I was involved with an Italian man 14 years my senior (I had always been under the impression that older gay men would be mature - I was wrong). He was another tramp. His appearance was very deceiving. He wooed me and made me believe he was something he was not, but I had fallen for him prior to finding out what he was all about. He used me and when he got what he wanted he was ready to move on. Interesting thing: he eventually admitted to me he was HIV+ (we used condoms). He had known he was carrying the virus years before we met, but lied and kept it from me. In fact, the first night we were together he wasn't even gonna use a condom. Guess he wanted to murder me......Doesn't matter, I never picked it up (thank God!). We split because he wanted to bed as many men as possible. He succombed to AIDS in 1990. Too bad he was such a slut...he'd be alive today...oh well.

Years back I met another older Italian man (17 years older). Super sweet. Hid everything from me. My experience has shown me how gay men can be the masters of deceit. I'm a nice guy, so as a result I always finish last and end up on the short end of the stick, maybe I should just join the crowd and be unjust like the rest of them......nah. Anyway, I fell hard for Mr. Sweetie, and dumped him when he started dropping weird hints about HIV. I thought, "You're lying, you're HIV+ and you won't tell me because you know I'll walk." I have come to the conclusion that an orgasm is not worth dying for. Anyway, this guy looked like living death last time I saw him and finally admitted to me he has AIDS now.

So, since the age of 23 I have been in love with 3 men and they were all defective. Two are dead from AIDS (they lived like sluts and got what was coming) and the last love is HIV+ now. My philosophy is: You want to live like a whore? Than prepare to die like one too (AIDS). I don't feel sorry for gay men with AIDS, in the same way I don't feel sorry for a lung cancer patient that smoked himself to death. You reap what you sew that's all I can say.

A couple years back I gave it one more shot. Like you I met a guy on Yahoo. Very nice, very polite, very generous. We were talking one night about previous relationship/experiences and he told me that when he was living in another state that he was a school teacher. I like older mmen and this guy was 60 (I'm 42). He told me that when he was living up north that he use to have students over on Friday nights for pizza. There was one student who was having problems at home so he let this kid stay overnight and sleep at the foot of his bed. He said he woke up to this kid blowing him and proceeded to enjoy himself. The kid was 15 and this man was 58. I flipped out! I told him, "Can you promise me that if we got deeply involved that we won't be visited by the cops one night to cart your ass off to jail. What if this kid says you molested him.

Basically, after all these seedy, sleazy experiences I had to question the morality of homosexuality....and I had never done that in my life. I loved being a gay man. I was tired of meeting men from different walks of life who were all basically morally deficient in one area. I'm sorry, but in all my years of living in the straight world I never ran into this stuff at this concentration level. I have tons of close straight friends and none of them are like these gay guys I've met.

And I hhave not been sucked into the religious guilt trips. I never had any guilt trips about sex at all. I was ahppily gay. What was so overwhelming real was the amount of gay men who subscribed to "do whatever feels good" even if it's at the expense of screwing your present partner over. You're gay and you know it's true. Don't deny it!

You said, "You're above that", and I know that, but I got to the point where it was like, "I can't find any other gay men out there who think and feel like me....they all live like whores and they make me feel like a freak because I have morals. If statistically only 3% of the general gay population is monogamous, then what are my chances of finding real love? Soooo, I retired, I gave up. No one will ever use me again, ever lie to me again (in terms of love), never cheat on me again, never give me another disease, etc.

As far as "going outside the relationship for satisfaction", you're only in the 5th year. Ever heard of the 7-year itch? You still have time, and the odds are against you, trust me on that one. Never say "never". You sound like I use to in my 8-year relationship. Maybe you're a good guy, but there's always your other half....you never know someone as much as you think you know them. I've found this out too many times....and I hate people that lie.

zerotolerance I'm sorry that you have had bad experiences in relationships, but this is not your world and we are living in it. A lot of people have had bad experiences and never will have a great relationship in their life, but you should not be against homosexuals getting married because of your experiences, you should look at the bigger picture, not yourself, hey maybe that's why your relationships did not work out.

It's all about religion, we have gotten to a point where religion should not dictate law. Don't get me wrong we should respect religious ideas and rights, but they shouldn't dictate how society works.

Give gay people the right to marry. Who the hell cares? My only worry is gay divorce, can you imagine how bitchy that will be! Lol sorry, i couldn't resist the stereotypical joke there.

ZT - Your experiences are truly disheartening, and I for one am most sorry you had the ones you did.

However, these experiences are not adequate reason to deny gay people equal rights under secular law. Even if it is true that every single gay man in the world is just itching to score around the block (an assumption I am not ready to make), it does not matter in terms of the right for gay people to marry.

So to recap, as best as I can recall. We have had I think the following 'reasons' gay people should not be allowed to marry:

1) They cannot reproduce. Not a valid reason. My wife and I cannot reproduce either, and our marriage is valid nation wide.

2) If they do have children, the children will be raised without both genders of parents. Not a valid reason. Count the number of single parent households.

3) It will support the 'gay agenda'. Not a valid reason. The 'gay' agenda is no different than the 'neo-con' or 'liberal' or 'industrial' or you name it agendas. People can make their own choices.

4) It will weaken the institution of marriage. Not a valid reason. The paperwork behind Adam and Steve's relationship has no bearing on any other.

5) God doesn't like it. Not a valid reason. Religous beliefs have no place in secular law in the US. And in fact, some religions have no problem with it.

6) Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Not a valid reason. Marriage throughout history has taken many forms, including homosexual and multiple partners.


Did I miss any?

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Did I miss any?

No, I think that just about wraps the thread. Can we call a post that wraps a thread a 'spool'?

Zerotolerance, you've been through hell. Not surprised you feel the way you do -- but your experience isn't universal, and it's no reason for denying others the hope of domestic felicity.

I thought i would revive an older thread that found its way far from page 1.....

What is your stance on Gay marriage, and why?

If you are against it: How does it deminish from your liberties, and how is it detrimental for humanity?

Thanks in advance for your contributions.

Helo,
We will soon be voteing for this exact topic in my state. I will be right up there with a positive YES.
Not because I am gay or I am pro-gay but because these people are robbed of their civil rights.
I don't agree with the whole marriage crap charade it is just a man made convention. Vows yes, marriage no.
Me and hubby are married out of "convenience".
WIS

I honestly, apart from the legal issues don't see a point in marriage.
I'm bi, though I lean more towards liking men by the way.

I figure we should just make everyone regardless of there sexuality
who wants to be married to have a civil union that guarentees the
same legal rights that come with marriage currently.


I don't think it should matter if your married or not,
being with the one you love, that's what truly matters.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


For me it is also a choice, but I believe neither is wrong. I hope you don't look back on your life as a series of bad choices, without them you would not be who you are. To deny someone the oppertunity to grow by falling in love with someone of their same sex would be denying them the same oppertunity that allowed you to evolve.