The Bible is open to interpretation, thus cannot be used as factual evidence

i have always felt that the bible is a guide on how to conduct our lives. yes, there is a lot of history in it that can be verified. there is also many that can not.

example- who did cain and abel marry? no where does it say that god created others. did they mate with eve, their mom?

the flood and noahs ark- the ark is supposedly on top of mt. ararat. that is about 11,000 ft high. where did 2 miles worth of water disappear?
on board were only noah's sons and thier wives. so, first cousin had to sleep with first cousin? and, to account for all the other races, noah would have had to have an asian son, a black son, eskimoe, native american etc..
the ark- no way a ship can hold all the species of the world and their food. noah would have had to travel to the arctic, antarctic, south america, north america etc... plus the ship would have had to be larger than a modern aircraft carrier.

incest- if it is such a horrible sin (not condoning it for my part) why is it not included on the original ten commandments? as previously noted, adam and eve, noah's family, lot and his daughters (please do not get me started on that. in that day and age women were even MORE property of men. he had just offered up his daughters to be gang raped and they feel sorry for him? what probaly REALLY happened was that he got drunk and raped his own daughters. knowing the social stigma of what had occurred, lot put this story out there. after all, who was there to witness this? and whom would they believe more?) david had his own sister as a wife. here, incest is not condemned by god, it is even incouraged.

homosexuality- yes leviticus and first romans. but since this is a topic that brings people to rage often, especially for those who condemn it, jesus never said a single thing on it. let me repeat that. jesus did not say a single thing on it! he said quite a bit about loving one another and do unto others. he also said alot about the horrible sins of greed and avarice and the mistreatment of those less fortunate. if homosexualality was SO horrible to god, would not his only son speak out against it?

it was written by men- no matter how holy or spiritual a man or woman can be, every one has his or her own personal beliefs and they will filter into anything humans produce. we are fallible by nature, no matter what.if peter, whom christ chose to found his church on could deny him three times before the cock crows, would such a man not put his own perspective on things?

just a few things to ponder. have a great day every one!

Alright.

I think I see what's going on here. A little confusion. Yes, the bible does have historical stuff in it; why not, people wrote it. It's just that the fanciful embellishments are not fact.

It's like Davy Crockett. He was a real guy and he did fight at the Alamo. However, he didn't wrestle a bear when he was 3. Same thing with the bible. No one stopped the sun, no river turned into blood, no sea split in half, etc.

"Although I find some of your assumptions on the Bible being myths and unrealistic distressing, you have hit a valid point with RELIGION"


I do not intend to distress anyone, but the Bible is not important, that is the point i really wish to get across. It is a Book, subject to Mans errors and intentional misguidance. And, they are not assumptions, the Phoenicians created an alphabet that the Hebrew scholars then borrowed for their own. This is Historical Fact. the epic of Gilgamesh ( the Great Flood) was written thousand+ years before Noah Exsited, this is Fact. there are many more, and they are not important.

the question is : the Bible is open to interpretation, thus cannot be used as factual evidence. relying on itself to prove itself is a conundrum, it must be able to withstand investigation removed from itself. The Bible cannot, in my opinion stand as factual evidence by subjection to independant analysis.

This SHOULD NOT create issues for anyone that believes in the messages, or its theme of Salvation. What God intends resides within you, not in a book assembled by politics and power. Set yourself free from the trappings of this world and start on the quest Christ truly intended.

Originally posted by blackthorne

example- who did cain and abel marry? no where does it say that god created others. did they mate with eve, their mom?

Mytym. This is an example of what I have been indicating, and exactly how I got sucked into this post. Blackthorne has wondered about some serious matters, and it would do anyone, with such a concern to review the text itself.

The missinformation of detail, that leads to such a thought as this, is astounding. Makes me wish I could reach out and stuff my Boot up Blackthornes Butt, to shake ajar those Brain cells.

Dear Blackthorne

On the Sixth Day (whatever a Day may be) God and the Angels made man, both male and female, in 'Their' (God's and the Angel's) Image. Speculation solely on my part, is that none of the Angels are clones, and have unique appearances.

Since God said, "Let us make man in Our Image", the races (RACES) where RECREATED. This action was a collective effort, since I just noted, It was not God saying let us make man in my image.

These people inhabited, this Earth Age for thousands of years. They fullfilled the instructions given directly to them by God. BE FRUITFUL AND REPLENISH THE EARTH.

And they did so, two days (whatever a Day may be) prior the Creation, of Adam, who lived sometime prior to Eve's Creation. God rested on the 7th Day (whatever a Day may be) and then saw, at some point after this 7th day of rest, he needed someone to tend the Garden of Eden.

So, inrespects to the notation and first question, we can say this. Abel is dead, (since you forgot this), and Cain found a wife in the land of Nod, just like it says.

Not from have some presumed incestual relationship with his mother, to twist and misrepresent scripture. Of Course, Cain's father, SATAN, would certainly be entertained knowing, this is the preception of not just you Blackthorne, but even some Christians, and again, what is the root problem. Not having any concern to pickup the Bible and ask for guidance from God to allow you to have understanding. I'll say it for you here, as Truthseeka knows, IT'S NOT BRAIN SURGERY

the flood and noahs ark- the ark is supposedly on top of mt. ararat. that is about 11,000 ft high. where did 2 miles worth of water disappear?

SPECULATION OR CONJECTURE ONLY is being offered here. I firmly beieve the Black Sea Flood of 5600 BC is 'Part there of' the Biblical account, but we have some presumptions that this was due to gradual elevation of Oceanic waters due to Global Warming. which forced the collapse of the Bridge and allowed the MED to spill into the Black sea and bury towns and farmland 1000 feet below seas level. THIS LAST PART IS FACT.

As for this presumption, of 'Gradual', I understand it, but believe the Pillar of Hercules, also held back a large amount of this Gradual Increase in Ocean levels, since it is just as clear, MAN lived in the Med Basin. The hotbed of everything God destoryed in the 'Flood' tale. Again, it is fact, people lived there, and reseach suggest this may well date to 10000 BC, but more likely a more current time would also do.

The point is, once the Gradual sea levels increased, AND THEN THE INCLUSION of the Firmament being rent, (torn) and the Waters of Heaven, (held back by the Firmament) split into the Atlantic, this overwhelmed the Pillar of Hercules, and flooded the MED BASIN, and onto the Black Sea Area, at the same time.

Also, I tend to believe, Noah would have at least attempted to return to his Home.
I do believe, it is Noah, who built the Minoan Culture. I believe it was Noah, that Gilgamesh went to visit, in his epic. I actually do believe Gilgamesh is a decendant of Noah through Shem. Shem, moved into the Persian/Mid East area, from which came Abraham, Israel, and their Arab Cousins, along with several other peoples.

But this flood I just reviewed in a few breif movements should at least allow you, Blackthorne, the ability to answer the questions you have.

Science claims there was no Global Flood that EVERYONE DIED FROM. This is OVERWHELMING, and not worth of debate in it's own. What was the Flood to do.
PRESERVE THE BLOODLINE OF Christ. What was the Problem? The Fallen had come to Earth and Polluted/Corrupted the Earth, to the point this was a concern.

Hence the flood, from the narrow prespective of Noah, would have done just that. Destroyed the whole world. Everything he knew, was washed away and is still today, under the MED, much like the Black Sea.

And how did the Boat get up their? It floated during what I suggested above. The water did flow over that land barrier into the Black Sea did'nt it?

Where did the waters go? The same place is goes today. I think it has to do with gravity.

As for the balance of what you consider thought, reread it for yourself, and wonder if those things you ponder should have been deleted by your own hand.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by truthseeka
Alright.

Same thing with the bible. No one stopped the sun, no river turned into blood, no sea split in half, etc.

If this is what you wish Truthseeka, I think it would make a veiw interesting topic.

I am kind of busy right now, looking at the Steppes region east of the Black Sea, for something from 'our' past, but I would be game for the Pro Side. You can take the Con, since you seemingly have that position right now.

Let me know if you really wish to play

Ciao

Shane

actually, i am quite aware of the black sea flood. national geographic even had a spread on it. archeaologists have even found a small village that was drowned.when the flow of the med through the bosphorous straits was reversed, the black sea went from a fresh water great lake to what we see now. i can very much imagine being some simple farmer who was a mile from the shore, tending his crops. then one morning seeing the shore closer and moving towards him at a fairly good speed. fleeing south into the eastern shore of the med screaming of a great flood.

however, you are cherry picking. the bible states that the ark settled on ararat. yes or no? are you saying that it is open to interpretation? if so, the rest of it can be open too. one can not say that the bible is fact, then say "well that is only conjectured".

bible states- the lord caused adam to fall into a deep sleep. and when he was, the lord withdrew from him a rib, where as he fashioned a companion for him. skipping all the apple stuff. adam knew eve and begat cain and abel. where does it say that satan had his way with her? cain slew his brother from jealousy. yes he went into the land of nod. but if the bible is factual, and every word is true, where did the other people come from? does not say that god made any one else. only adam and eve. are you now adding your own thoughts to this matter? if so, who were they and what were there names?

and once again, all the bible says that noah and his family were the ONLY people to be spared from the flood. so, noah would have had to have sons with many different colors. and then they would have had to breed like rabbits and spread across asia, africa, cross the oceans to australia and americas and yet leaving no written account of their epic travels?

i believe in faith, not religion. religion is a creation of man. if you are christian,(any body here) what kind? if you are muslim, what kind? etc...

peace to all

What is truth?

There have been scientific discoveries that when discovered where in deed fact and truth, however later in time that discovery of fact/truth may have changed because there was something else that was discovered (which then made it just theory) and the newly discovered fact is now truth - okay, my mind on coffee.

The Bible - in order for me to really appreciate it and read into the beauty of the writing, I had to study and read a little philosophy. To me, there is a lot that makes sense that is written in the bible - my perception. However truth is ever changing and we may never know the full truth about anything.

Truth slips away every day as we discover new truths. Truth is in the perception of the truth seeker. Most human minds are not satisfied and are constantly trying to discover new truths, sometimes creating their own truths, sometimes accepting others truths.

Originally posted by curiousity
Mohammed is... but a false prophet who has led many away from the true Son of God and into the path of destruction.

Even though the majority of what he preaches is the same as Jesus, and he proclaims that Jesus is to be found holy by the Muslim religion?:

"...We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit."
V. 002:087, Pickthall translation.

Originally posted by curiousity
The Koran is a take off on the Torah of the Jews, so quite naturally it is somewhat similar.

So why, then, is Islam thought of as having a different god then Christianity? Several times the bible says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The Koran states the same, and was fashioned after the Torah, same as the Bible-- therefore you both worship the same god.

Originally posted by curiousity
...I HAVE studied other "religions" and found them offensive to my awakened spirit...

I find it very amusing that you find other religions "offensive" (or should I say, other "religions" offensive). Where in their teachings do they personally attack you or your religion? Or do you see the fact that they don't believe Jesus is the son of God as a personal attack onto your religion? If this is the case, that is quite the shallow reasoning. One should not take offense if someone holds different religious beliefs other than one's own, unless those beliefs directly attack them. What they believe is their choice, and one should neither look down upon them for it, nor try to persuade them otherwise.

Does not the bible state:

"...love thy neighbor as thyself..."
Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 19:19; Matthew 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8

...or as quoted in the Koran:

"Show kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin..."
V. 004:036, Pickthall translation.

In any case, if we were to talk about the bible proving things, Jesus HIMSELF proves what the Koran says to be true:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Mathew 4:10

...or as stated in the Koran:

"...They were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: Far is He from having the partners they associate with Him."
V 009:031, Yusuf Ali translation.

...but in being as learned as you are in such religions, you would have already known that, wouldn't you?

mt ararat is far from the coast of the black sea and the med. and it is still 11,000 ft ABOVE the sea level. for your proposal to work, the black sea flooded as we have said. then, it would have had to reach farther south and rise up two more miles in order for the ark to get there. then, two miles worth of water would have had to dry up or flow some where else. to get an idea on how much that is, the titanic is at the bottom at ten thousand feet. as you stated that the ark probably got up there from the flood. well, once again you are cherry picking. the bible says that the flood was caused from rain, 40 days and 40 nights. since you are the one defending it as fact.

i too was well aware of the med basin drying up. i read about this 23 years ago. a group of geoligists drilling in the med were surprised to find a layer of gravel that only forms when a large body of water evaporates. upon further drilling and investigating, they found a large gulch at the bottom of the med where the nile would be if the med had dried up. this corresponds to where one is found in france as well. with the exception of a few large salt water lakes, yes the med did dry up once. but they say that this occurred a few MILLION years ago.

Shane? What would really help your arguements would be verses, not insults...


(whispers)Pssst! Your exasperation is showing!!

[edit on 5/29/2006 by Draconica]

I'd just like to point at that the thread topic applies equally to those wishing to support or oppose religious arguments alike. Due to the subjectivity involved in interpreting the meaning of th written word, using a passage from the Bible to play the role of factual evidence is rarely an acceptable exchange.

Originally posted by blackthorne
actually, i am quite aware of the black sea flood. national geographic even had a spread on it.

Nice to see you actually read something, or was it just the pictures?

"well that is only conjectured".

Since you did not read I noted SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE ONLY

but if the bible is factual, and every word is true, where did the other people come from? does not say that god made any one else. if so, who were they and what were there names?

Try picking up the book and read who was created on the sixth day. It's still even within the 1st chapter. Sorry though, No pictures. And all I care is they where fine enough for God, so that's good enough for me. And if this message isn't clear to you, then may God have mercy on your soul.

But here, read it for yourself. www.jesus-is-lord.com...

and once again, all the bible says that noah and his family were the ONLY people to be spared from the flood.

Exactly. All the others in the area of habitation surrounding Noah's living enviornment had pollute blood contaiminated with the Spawn of the Fallen. This is what was removed from the earth.

i believe in faith, not religion. religion is a creation of man. if you are christian,(any body here) what kind? if you are muslim, what kind? etc...

peace to all

Pal, faith alone, is not enough. You can be ingorant and go to heaven, since Christ made that possible for you. The point becomes if that is how you wish to be when you get there. A fine example for one who died for you. A fine Elect representative to withstand the firey darts of Satan you will be.

Ciao

Shane

Shane,

Unfortunately, YOUR interpretations of the bible are NOT fact. They are interpretations.

As far as your game, sure, why not, I'll play.

Originally posted by Draconica
Shane? What would really help your arguements would be verses, not insults...


(whispers)Pssst! Your exasperation is showing!!

[edit on 5/29/2006 by Draconica]

First, you have the ability for creative thought, which is very apparent in your various replies offer. It's nice to see this, and I trust I can work on your suggestions and be more diligent in the future.

I apologize to any, if some level of frustation becomes evidence, since I am just a man, and have failings of my own to deal with.

One of these is a complete and utter disrepect for stupidity. Being dumb as a brick, is not a prerequisite to partake in a discussion, but comeon.

Second, I am not afraid to share my faith, and I am not afraid to share what the Bible notes, in respects to questions, since, I have been fortunate enough to have been able to study the Bible, and have a fine appreciation for the Word of God.

If someone raises a question, or has a comment, I'll answer any of them, if that has not become apparent by now. Even if I may not know or have an answer which can be offered to contribute to the conversation, I will at least take the time to investigate. If something is new, and not previously discussed, and I figure it is worth noting, then My Dear, I am always interested in providing Quotes, and Links for these.

Third, (and theres a but here), But I have the difficulty when offering details, and then have someone completely ignore those details, due to being too lazy to check on the references for themselves, and then position a question in the manner seen of late, over and over.

A simple indication that they reviewed the material and still find it is not according to their own opinion, should do just fine. I have no problem with that at all.

Yeah Draconica, It's hard to be prefect, and always a challenge to keep calm, when dealing with people who have no education. It's wonderful to be told, by someone who thinks humanity, according to the Bible, is a hotbed of incestual relations, and sees this ignorance as a fact.

I was surprised he had seen a spread of the 5600 BC Flood of the Black Sea though. I bet it was in color too NGS is good with Color Photo's.

Oh, and I never knew I insulted anyone Draconica. But, as noted above, I will watch that I am careful to keep that from being evident in responses for the future

Well it's been nice chatting, and I trust to see more of your thoughts on things here and in other topics.

Have a good Evening Draconica

Ciao

Shane

Shane,

I am glad that you are passionate about what you believe in; not so many people are these days.

I can totally understand people separating religion from faith, religion from Christianity. To me there is definately a difference. Throughout time religion has been associated with control, fear, death - Christianity (those who follow Christ), has given us an alternative.
God has placed warnings, Blessings, stories, moral obligations throughout the Bible through the writing of Godly men which makes total sense, but arguing over everything in between does not make sense to me.
Stand up for what you believe in, but allow others to learn for themselves as well.
People need to also work on their own relationships with God - we are only the messengers, not the message and not the judgement.
Remember to love thy neighbor - and unconditionally as Jesus loves us and leave all condimnation to the final judgement.

I believe the statement to this thread is true - Indeed the Bible is open to interpretation -

However, cannot be used as factual evidence? This is true and not true. Certain things have been proven, some have not -

Originally posted by truthseeka
Shane,

Unfortunately, YOUR interpretations of the bible are NOT fact. They are interpretations.

As far as your game, sure, why not, I'll play.

Yeah I am game as always my firend.

But, It is not my interpetation of the Bible. It's the Bibles interpetation I am interested in. My SPECULATION and CONJECTURE is noted as such, whenever I throw that in for simple consideration.

I'll need about a week or so. Just finishing some Black Sea 'Area" Archaeology searches, and have a few things to finish with to complete my Satan is Cain's Father Post. But once thats done, We can open a topic, and have at it.

You with the Silly Premises.

And I'll keep it to Scripture and Text and Verse. If Conjecture or Speculation is noted, I'll ensure it's highlighted in some manner.

I'll u2u when I could start this with you. Take care, and have a good night.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Godsent
Stand up for what you believe in, but allow others to learn for themselves as well.

Thanks for the Nice Post, and I appreciate your effort to do so.

I highlighted the most important thing you offered.

If one has no intent on doing this simple task, then what can be said anymore.

As you can see, buddy is and will be 11000 Ft up a mountain for sometime to come.

But again thanks

Ciao

Shane

well ill go a bit off topic with everyone else, I will first make it clear that I am Catholic and therefore I come from that view point (If your going to argue on something I think its only fair to make your biases known so others can take that into their judgement) Now heres my bit on the subject. The Bible is a work made by man but guided by the Holy Spirit, I feel that you should be able to rely on it in some instances, in other not. The Bible is a collection of storys, and im sure there are plenty of things that MAN had blown out of proportion. However I feel the base history and purpose and teachings of the Bible are true. If you look at certan things that seem over board there are rational proofs to what most likely happened. Therefore I will share a few explanations which I have been taught from the Catholic School which I graduated from. The Plagues of Egypt. They are said to be natural miracles, the river running red, was most likely caused by a flooding, common to the Nile and clay bleeding into the water making it undrinkable, then there are other plagues (forgot some, class was 3 yrs ago) I beleive one was of frogs and one of insects. Well if the river flooded when it receded, the frogs would be everywhere, and the water left would be ideal breading for the bugs. As far as the killing of the first born sons, this most likely took place as gurrila warfare/terrorism from the Jews. The Crossing of the sea well there are many places where u can safely make a crossing during low tide, but when high tide comes is over head, and dont forget that they were on horses and carriges the horses would be unable to travel quickly after the water raised. Jesus creating unending bread. By Jesus sharing ALL of his food with others he could have inspired others to share as well. Thats it for examples. Well in the end what I will defend to my death is this: The Bible is a book written by well intentioned men and guided by the Holy Spirit. The source and purpose of the book is pure and aims at helping the world.

We cannot have it both ways ; either the Bible is perfect in every perspective and fact, or it is not.

If it is not, then it cannot be used as factual evidence, Period. Stating that yes, there are embellished stories, there are borrowed fables from earlier cultures and written as original, BUT, the rest of the bible (which parts exactly?) are ok to use as fact.

THAT is what causes the problems inherent with application of Biblical "themes" for lack of a better word

If someone begins to truly study the Bible, and the cracks begin to appear ( as they will) then the rational to do wrong begins to take hold, Their Faith in
" the Word of God" begins to question itself, if only at the subconcious level. Their faith was misplaced from the beginning, in a book instead of the message.

I sometimes think this is where so many are led astray; Jim Jones, Pat robertson, jim baker, corrupt popes, etc, etc, etc. The rational to go astray is a lot easier when evidence begins to allow it.

Originally posted by ProjectChaos
As far as the killing of the first born sons, this most likely took place as gurrila warfare/terrorism from the Jews.

The Bible is a book written by well intentioned men and guided by the Holy Spirit. The source and purpose of the book is pure and aims at helping the world.

I was unaware that the Catholic Church took such a stance and that it would teach it's children as you have explained clearly and directly.

No wonder 6 million died, while the world stood by.

And I would like to remind you, There where others, within this demeaning Jewish Slander that are part of Israel at the time, so I guess this is just a generalization to slander all of Israel, instead of just our Jewish brothers who madeup 1/12 of the peoples. Thats really nice to know.

That sort of makes the last part of your comments run in conflict. No one that is well intented, would ever suggest such a thing.

Ciao

Shane