The Bible is open to interpretation, thus cannot be used as factual evidence

I think mytym has a good point. I think most scholars would agree that much of the historical information in the Bible is accurate. Of course, there is debate about all the miraculous stuff, but I'm talking about the names of kings, the places, and the more mundane events that occur in the Bible have often been corroborated by secular evidence.

Even though I am a religious person, I do think that the Bible is often used to 'prove' things that are open to interpretation. Just look at all the different religions that use the Bible, and all the different translations. The Bible can be used to support or condemn homosexuality, support or condemn wars, or just about anything else. There's an old saying that you can prove anything you want by quoting the Bible, and that's probably not much of an exaggeration.

Originally posted by point
It must be very conforting for those that choose to actualy believe the Bible is the uncorrupted .'Word of God'.

No further tedious research is required. The search is over.
This popular path to 'truth' is a widely travelled.
In a perfect world there would be nothing to be wary about in this path.
However in a world such as ours, the popularity and ease of this path can also be indicative of a potential trap.

And I suppose your path is not full of traps and forks in the road? The real biblical doctrines have been perverted and hidden by the Illuminati for centuries, Real doctrines of the Bible such as the links here are what can set humanity free from the demonic overlords of this world. I'm sure your Ignorance will be satisfied, if not ...ooooh well! ecclesia.org...

Even though I am a religious person, I do think that the Bible is often used to 'prove' things that are open to interpretation. Just look at all the different religions that use the Bible, and all the different translations. The Bible can be used to support or condemn homosexuality, support or condemn wars, or just about anything else. There's an old saying that you can prove anything you want by quoting the Bible, and that's probably not much of an exaggeration.

Even though I am not a religious person, I find your statement totally false. The Bible in no way supports homosexuality. Where are you getting this bogus crap?

There is an old saying, those who are blind to the truth, are blind to the truth.

if you believe in the Satanic goverment model of things then you deserve what your goverment dishes out to you on a regular basis. If however we the true believers in biblical doctrine had are way of goverrment, things would be alot different and better, but there's no use arguing with ignorant people, you all probably believe George Bush is a Christain Conservative..Argument over!

www.gemworld.com...

www.gemworld.com...

Originally posted by Beer_Guy
Have you ever done a search looking for what kind of person King James was? It's all a matter of recorded history, the answer may terribly surprise you.

Well Jolly King James was a Mason, and had his opportunity to manipulate the Text during it's production, my beer swilling friend.

This is why, the Translators wrote YOU a Letter.

But fortunately, a Man, by the name of James Strong did an Exhaustive review, and produced a Hebrew/Chaldean and Greek Concordance based upon the Original Manuscripts, which denotes the meanings of the words in these ancient languages, and offers you a tool to ensure the validity of the text in question.

THERE IS NO OTHER MANNER TO DO THIS TODAY. Only through the 1611 KJV, can this be accomplished.

Is it the Exact word of God verbatim???

Well off the top, we do not get past the second verse of Genesis 1, without corrupted wording.

Use the link I offered previously, or read what Genesis 1:2 says in my previous post.

Here's what the Hebrew suggested.

Gensis 1;2, And the earth became a waste and a desolation.

Is this the wording found withn the KJV??? NO.

Try the Ten Commandments.

I ensure you, if you pickup the Hebrew Text it says Thou shall not commit Premeditated Murder.

But not in the KJV. And this is the reason we have no death penalty in Canada. Thou shall not Kill, is the commandment in the KJV, and even if you Murder Someone, we can't be killing you. God commanded us not to.

But again, you can not verify this with anyother Bible, so YES, you should always use Masonic King Jame's 1611 Bible. All other's lack any ways to check on things like this.

And as for his appetites, that goes with the Masonic thing, I guess.

Ciao

Shane

What, Shane?



It's obvious that the sun was implied on the first day? Oh, really. It's more obvious than a verse where it PLAINLY states the day the sun and moon were placed in the sky? Really?

Seems to me you INFERRED this elusive "light" to be the sun. I read it straight from the book where the sun comes after plants. Was this some pervasive light that shone throughout the universe when it was just planets and hunks of rock? If this "light" and the sun are interchangeable, why were they created on separate days?

Not to mention the 2 creation myths don't even line up...:shk:

quote:
The Truth is the Bible has brought little more than death and destruction in the last 2 thousand years, but hey, it provides solace to the people about to be murdered by its followers.



Can you provide any facts on this? I'm not sure what you are talking about.


No problem;
The crusades, the witch hunts of the middle ages, the extermination of the Cathar culture, slavery, right up to our President who claims the God of the Bible is talking to him, thus relieving him of responsibility for the invasion of Iraq.

its a sick little book written by power mad men, nothing more.

True Slavation Lies somewhere else, though it is by the words of Christ. Its unfortunate men have hijacked his Word.

No problem; The crusades, the witch hunts of the middle ages,

I'm not quite following you. This has nothing to do with the Bible. This has to do with the Roman empire taking over Christianity after they failed to stop the messiage of the Messiah by killing all Christians. This is the fruit of Mystery Babylon and not of the Bible.

the extermination of the Cathar culture, slavery, right up to our President who claims the God of the Bible is talking to him, thus relieving him of responsibility for the invasion of Iraq.

How does this have anything to do with the Bible?

its a sick little book written by power mad men, nothing more.

It is the truth, and the Word of God. The Bible is written by men who were inspired by God.

True Slavation Lies somewhere else, though it is by the words of Christ. Its unfortunate men have hijacked his Word.

Salvation lies in your acceptance of Jesus the Messiah as your personal savior. It was prophesied that the Christ would come and he did. He suffered died and rose from the dead. Your choice in the matter determines where you spend eternity.

There is no hijacking of the word here, only those appearing to be Christians who in reality are not.

Totally agree that it cannot be taken in its literal form...hidden meanings on hidden meanings.
p.r.d.s.

peace

dalen

Shane:
If I am to use the KJV1611 Bible, complete with a message the translators wrote to decipher what a bible passage actually means, doesn't that constitute an interpretation?

Feel free to use scripture to support your premise, just don't pass it off as factual proof, because it isn't. Just as you have the right to use scripture to support your case, I have the right to tell you what does and does not constitute factual proof.

NeoQuest:
I agree, there is much in the bible that may require no interpretation at all, but the very existence of areas within that do, introduce the necessity to make a judgement over which areas do and which do not require interpretation. This judgement in itself, will vary from one reader to the next, thus multiple conclusions will be reached through a single source.

I haven't even touched on the differences in interpretations involved in translating from one language to another, one time to another or one form of communication to another. All of which serve to further minimise the possibility of extracting any objective truth out of any passage in the Bible.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Originally posted by truthseeka
It's obvious that the sun was implied on the first day? Oh, really. It's more obvious than a verse where it PLAINLY states the day the sun and moon were placed in the sky? Really?

This could become a theology Class.

Look, again, what is being discussed? The Stars and the Moon. What are the Stars and Moon, and what have they been used for throughout history? They are the LIGHTS. They set Time, and measurment of Time in Motion, as they do with the Seasons, and Years. This is Astrology. And I agree, God made the Sun, and it is infered to as the Brighter of the two main lights, and serves its function of seperating the night from Day, just as it is noted (light) on the first day, and yet reconfirmed on the four. Again, the distinction is that its refered to in specific and more detail here, and used to denoted this distinct different between the lessor light which rules the dark.

I read it straight from the book where the sun comes after plants. Was this some pervasive light that shone throughout the universe when it was just planets and hunks of rock?

Sure you have, but taking a verse alone, out of context (Here the Recreation) which is laidout in a sequence of presumed 'days' (Whatever days may imply), can suggest anything you wish it to.

The point you are making, Originally, was how do Grasses Grow, when there is no light for Photosynthesis, when all along, there was. Just because it becomes defined in verse 16 again, and you opt to ignore that fact it was already there, then thats upto you my friend.

I am only pointing out, the scriptures note quite clearly, your presumptions are not true. Because you don't believe it, is no problem Your are utilizing your free will.

Not to mention the 2 creation myths don't even line up...:shk:

I do not quite understand this? 2 Creation Myths? Whats up with That?

Then again, maybe I shouldn't ask!!

Have a good day Truthseeka

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by mytym
Shane:
If I am to use the KJV1611 Bible, complete with a message the translators wrote to decipher what a bible passage actually means, doesn't that constitute an interpretation?

Feel free to use scripture to support your premise, just don't pass it off as factual proof, because it isn't. Just as you have the right to use scripture to support your case, I have the right to tell you what does and does not constitute factual proof.

A well asked question, but one that I may have answered already.

The 1611 KJV Bible, is THE ONLY BIBLE, ever produced that has a definiative, Exhaustive Concordance compiled, that can be used to verify the Translation from it's original texts, (Hebrew/Chaldean and Greek) into the English. Again, this is due to the work of James Strong, who has done everyone a great service in this respects.

Is it 100% truth? I think I have answered that again, in specific to a response to Beerguy. Was it manipulated by Satanic influences, under duress placed on the Translators by their Masonic King? This may very well be the case.

BUT, we, (the English reader with no background in any of the Original Languages) do have the tool to reference this work, and findout exactly 'what' word was in the original text, and verify the use of it in the English Translation.

And its nice to see, you will exercise your Right to use your Free Will, as you outlined in the end. Whether anything offered in scripture can be presented as truth you find acceptable is upto you to decide and deal with. Thats entirely upto you.

If it is Fact to me, again, thats up to you to decide and deal with. It's not my problem if you opt to ignore it.

Ciao

Shane

Oop, Mytym, there's that word FACT again.

If it is Fact to me, again, thats up to you to decide and deal with. It's not my problem if you opt to ignore it.

Like the man says, he has proven the Bible is fact to him. You have a CHOICE, accept or reject the truth. If you took the time, you could also prove the Bible as FACT. The choice is yours.

Ho Ho ho.

None of us were there when any of the events happened. That is a fact.
So the bible bashers are quoting (and don't they love doing it!!!) from a book they have had no input into.

The bible is not a journal or diary. If you maintain such a thing yourself and you read back events and feelings. Sometimes with hindsight so much is more clearer.

But even then you do look at entries and think did it really happen like that? Years later a bit of information you hear changes the inflection about an entry. You find out that all that Father O'Connell tried to bring to you for your spiritual well-being was because he was a Paedophile and you were to be purified by him. God had selected you through the holy father to receive the holy spirit.

You believe in the fairy tale if you must. My perspective is somewhat different. I tar you all with the same brush. IF there were a god, where was he to help those who were not as fortunate as me? If it exists it is evil. YOU WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE Quote all you like.

The books (well there is more than one version isn't there?) called the bible are all constructs with the relevant scripts included that support the view of the paymaster of any particular version.

The fact that the text is translated into many languages, from many authors, by word of mouth over many years is the main reason that it is open to interpretation and misinterpretation. That and the fact that a fairy tale is not fact.

The mere fact that it is open to interpretation and misinterpretation makes the quoting from it a total waste of time. IT IS NOT FACT PERIOD. If the only argument for god is a few books you people are in trouble. Where is your REAL evidence? Prove to me without your discredited novel the existence of this god. Its not behind the sofa I looked. I will ask the bloke down the pub if he has seen him. I would take his drunken observations with more credibility than any words from the worlds biggest selling novel...and I don't mean Harry Potter.

There is probably more truth and fact in Harry Potter than "The Book". Ha Ha the bible dont make me laugh! The bible compilation. "Moses- and the Arc of the Covenant" "Jesus-Dont Get to Cross and Put Me Up for the Night"

I will carry on living my life mostly doing the opposite of the bible. As I have said before somewhere, your god, if it exists is a forgiving chap. Even if I were wrong, as long as I confess all before my existence ends I will be alright. I will be sitting alongside all you self righteous bible bashing paedophiles in heaven. The difference being I would have enjoyed my life...humping loads of girls, drinking loads of beer coveting my neighbours Ox or what ever pants commandments the evil book states I must or must not do. I can not lose can I?

If I am banned for this rant, so be it. I would rather that, than read your delusional
Paedophile clap trap. I KNOW WHAT THE CHURCH IS REALLY ABOUT PERVERTS.... I hope your children do not have to suffer as some have..PERVERTS.

I'm not quite following you. This has nothing to do with the Bible. This has to do with the Roman empire taking over Christianity after they failed to stop the messiage of the Messiah by killing all Christians. This is the fruit of Mystery Babylon and not of the Bible."

If you are referring to the Mystery Religions, they became part of Biblical Christianity, which is the point we are discussing. Those belief systems were incorporated into the Bible; Virgin Birth, 3 days of death followed by resurrection, a holy trinity, etc. These are not Christian but far older religious beliefs incorporated into the Bible, as political compromise with the powerfull priests and cults of the era.



quote:
the extermination of the Cathar culture, slavery, right up to our President who claims the God of the Bible is talking to him, thus relieving him of responsibility for the invasion of Iraq.
"How does this have anything to do with the Bible"

The Bible was used to justify genocides, crusades, wholesale burning of "witches", slavery, and the delusional ranting of a President who thinks he has divine guidance to bomb and invade foreign nations, because he is such a Bible following Christian.





quote:
its a sick little book written by power mad men, nothing more.
"It is the truth, and the Word of God. The Bible is written by men who were inspired by God"

If you want the truth, stick to the words spoken by Christ; love your neighbor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit those in Jail. The rest of the Bible is little more than Filler.
Stating belief in Christ then bombing iraqis, hating gays, voting to end school lunches and health clinics, etc...that is not Truth. It is abomination. The religious right ( Evangelicals ) are about as lost as one can get.



quote:
True Slavation Lies somewhere else, though it is by the words of Christ. Its unfortunate men have hijacked his Word.

"Salvation lies in your acceptance of Jesus the Messiah as your personal savior. It was prophesied that the Christ would come and he did. He suffered died and rose from the dead. Your choice in the matter determines where you spend eternity.
There is no hijacking of the word here, only those appearing to be Christians who in reality are"


There is much more to Salvation than this. Christ states very clearly that loving your neighbor, clothing, feeding, housing, caring etc are expected by those that wish to follow him.
Christ never asked a person what they believed in before healing them. He didnt quiz them before feeding them, he didnt demand allegiance, he simply took care of them. Men later hijacked the intent , added the book of revelations to terrorize and instill fear, paul tossed in a few lines regarding women to keep silent, etc.

The reaction seen from Christians when they actually read what Christ says and commands are interesting. They are used to church sermons and studies reflecting what Paul interprets, or being terrified by the book of revelations. Needing to go out and take care of their fellow humans puts a whole new spin, it isnt getting dressed in your sunday clothes and sitting in church an hour a week. It is getting dirty and smelly and using your money to buy another less fortunate human being a meal.

The rest is crap, political compromises made by emperors long ago to solidify their hold on power lest the people revolt, not being able to worship their virgin goddesses. God does not live in the Bible, he does not reside within its pages, and Christ never wrote, built, or left any material goods for clear reasons; he came to reject the scribes, and scholars and those that put their faith in books and laws and material goods. Heaven is within you, not in a book.

If you wish to see God, feed the hungry. Volenteer in social services. Work in an AIDS ward, take care of crack babies.
Thats how you touch the face of God.

You have voted mytym for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by mytym
For the purpose of this thread, lets assume that there is no debate over the
validity of the Bible as a truthful historical account.

Time and time again I notice members here on ATS citing Bible references as forms of proof to support a particular point of view. I have no problem with people believing in and following the teachings of the Bible, but when it comes to presenting quotes from the Bible as facts, I take issue with it.

As do I. Lately I have repetively asked people to prove that something from the bible is [scientific] fact.. they usually respond with bible quotes. :shk:

If something in the bible is fact.. other facts would support it, otherwise it's NOT a fact and is either an opinion or a delusion. This is happening way too much here and needs to be discouraged as much as possible as it promotes ignorance.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by riley]

Very very well said toolman. The path to Heaven is definately inside you and not in any book.

For those of you bashing the Christian Religion, that is not what Sun Matrix and Shane are talking about. From what I can tell, Sun Matrix is anti-religion, but pro-KJ Bible, with the concordance by Strong of course.

They were smart and tenacious enough to read and interpret the Bible, pick apart all it's secrets, with Strong's help, and come to the conclusion that it is all FACTS inspired by God. Puhlease. If only they could go one step farther and think for themselves about all the questions the Bible answers.

Why not ask God directly about being saved? What about people that are not as intelligent as they are, who don't have the time or the resources to find all the Truths the Bible holds? What about the crippled, the blind, the retarded, or the illiterate? If they can't read the Truth in a book, are they screwed? Thank God for people like Sun Matrix who can explain it to them I guess eh?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You don't need a book to find your way to God, but you do need to find his Son, which if you look inside to your true self, you will find Christ the Son.

You guys are almost there. Don't get hung up on the Bible. Don't eat that Apple!

Namasté,

StickyG

I think to have this discussion, it's important to define what the words "evidence", "proof" and "fact" actually mean.

Proof and Science

"Proof is arriving at a logical conclusion, based on the available evidence."
Notice that this has absolutely nothing to do with being right or wrong. It also has nothing to do with science either, since you can have logical conclusions in Social Studies, English, or any other subject. The word proof is used a lot in law, and the idea isn't a lot different if we use it in science.
...
Proof does not equal truth.
...

Evidence, Knowledge and Proof

The problem with 'proof', of course, is that it connotes certainty and completion.

Just something to consider.

Shane:
Granted, Strong's concordance is a fantastic tool that enable's a layperson to translate each word of the original text. However, it is reliant on a number of factors which we must assume to be trustworthy such as Strong's integrity and the legitimacy of the original texts referred to. For arguments sake, lets assume the highest integrity in these cases. A large proportion of Bible passages are ambiguous regardless of which language they are written in, thus interpretation is still required to choose which meaning is the original intention. You have provided evidence of this in your previous post regarding light and the Sun. You and truthseeka have different interpretations of the same passage.

For the purpose of this thread, as I mentioned in my opening post, I am making the grossly inaccurate assumption that the Bible is 100% truth, so there is no debate on this.

You are confusing facts with your subjective beliefs. Facts are not subjective. There is no such things as facts to you and facts to me, facts apply to everyone and everything. If a belief does not, it is not a fact.

Here is a link to a thread that should help to demonstrate this concept to you:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'